The Coming Great Apostasy

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Earburner

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Actually the Bible declares that the Resurrection/Rapture is before the end of the world (or the age):

1 CORINTHIANS 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order:
[1] Christ the firstfruits; [the resurrection of Christ] afterward [2] they that are Christ's at his coming. [the Resurrection/Rapture of the saints]

24
[3] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The Resurrection/Rapture (the saints going UP to Heaven) cannot possibly be the same as the Second Coming of Christ (the saints coming DOWN from Heaven). That would be absurd, since there must be a Marriage of the Lamb between those two events.

As to despising Darby and Dispensationalism, you could learn a lot if you had the humility to do so.
THINK by HIS Spirit, (the Mind of Christ) and not with your analytical, fleshly brain. Isa. 56:8-9.

1 Thes. 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
 

Copperhead

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Have you ever considered all millennial theories are false? Including Post Millennialism? Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world and tribulation remains the norm for believers until the end of the world.

Not really, though I suspect there are some aspects that could make it seem that way, but the Davidic Covenant does put a bit of a kink in that idea. As does the Abrahamic covenant. Both of these play into each other.

But while in general tribulation is an issue, Yeshua did specify a unique period of time which He said would be great Tribulation. Depends on the perspective I guess.
 
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Dave L

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Not really, though I suspect there are some aspects that could make it seem that way, but the Davidic Covenant does put a bit of a kink in that idea. As does the Abrahamic covenant. Both of these play into each other.

But while in general tribulation is an issue, Yeshua did specify a unique period of time which He said would be great Tribulation. Depends on the perspective I guess.
Matthew 24 mentions 2 tribulations. The great Jewish tribulation, beginning in AD 70. And Christian tribulation remaining until the end of the world. Apart from this distinction, confusion prevails.
 

Keraz

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That's incorrect, and not what is written in Rev.13...

Rev 13:7-8
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
KJV


The coming Antichrist, pseudo-Christ, the "vile person", dragon, the devil, Satan, that old serpent, whatever you want to call him, will make war with the saints, which means Christ's Church. And he will overcome them, physically, and some of them spiritually also, which is what Apostle Paul's falling away is about. The only saints among that group that will NOT worship that dragon are those whose names are written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, which means Christ's very elect, the same elect He spoke of in Matthew 24:24 which is the same event...

Matt 24:23-26
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs (Greek pseudochristos, a singular false-Messiah), and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
KJV



Jesus gave that warning there TWICE about that coming pseudo-Christ. He commanded us to not believe on that fake Christ. That is the same event of the falling away Apostle Paul showed in 2 Thess.2:3-4. It is the same event of the "another beast" of Rev.13, and that "dragon" of Rev.13:4-8.

While your skewed belief tries to get away from those direct Scripture connections, it only gives me more opportunity to show the actual Bible Scripture proof of the connections.
Either I haven't explained myself very well or you have misconstrued what I did say, because we are in fair agreement that the Christians are present during the Great Tribulation. As Revelation 13:7 and Daniel 7:25 tell us.
Your final comment is unnecessary and plainly rude. I suggest you take more care to find out what people do believe in future.
Reading all your posts, I see you make judgmental accusations to just about everyone. Shows how much Bible you know! James 4:11-12
 
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farouk

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There is a difference between apostasy and disobedience. It is true that there have always been apostates but a general apostasy would come from rejecting God's word. I think you are correct that the Great Apostasy could instead be referring to the departure of the Church. But, I also think that a spiritual apostasy likely triggers the physical departure of the Church. The Church is losing the call of God through their departure from believing that Scripture is THE TRUTH (only for about the last 100 years). We are even now relegated to the "gleanings" of the fields--the Father's barns are near full. When the "full number of the Gentiles has come in" that heavenly ticker will stop at that number which only God the Father knows, and then He will tell His son, "Go get your Bride!"
Interesting way to describe the rapture!
 
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Jay Ross

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Your final comment is unnecessary and plainly rude. I suggest you take more care to find out what people do believe in future.
Reading all your posts, I see you make judgmental accusations to just about everyone. Shows how much Bible you know! James 4:11-12

Where is the pot and where is the kettle so that they can call each other names or nongs or whatever.
 
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farouk

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Yes, if you read Things to Come by Dwight Pentecost (now he just HAD to be a theology professor didn't he?) you will never doubt the Pre-Tribulation Rapture again. :)
It seems to me that if ppl decide a theological doctrine is not fashionable any more, they will often attack the person rather than grapple with the relevant Scriptures.
 
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Earburner

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Either I haven't explained myself very well or you have misconstrued what I did say, because we are in fair agreement that the Christians are present during the Great Tribulation. As Revelation 13:7 and Daniel 7:25 tell us.
Your final comment is unnecessary and plainly rude. I suggest you take more care to find out what people do believe in future.
Reading all your posts, I see you make judgmental accusations to just about everyone. Shows how much Bible you know! James 4:11-12
I contend that there is no event that "Religion" loves to call "THE" Great (7 year) Tribulation".
That error is all due to misinterpreting the "70 weeks" in Daniel, and an attempt to make "a little horn" rise from the 4th beast, when in fact he already ROSE from the 3rd beast.
 

farouk

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I contend that there is no event that "Religion" loves to call "THE" Great (7 year) Tribulation".
That error is all due to misinterpreting the "70 weeks" in Daniel, and an attempt to make "a little horn" rise from the 4th beast, when in fact he already ROSE from the 3rd beast.
Matthew 24 seems to speak of a unique coming event known as the 'great triublation'.
 

Jay Ross

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I contend that there is no event that "Religion" loves to call "THE" Great (7 year) Tribulation".
That error is all due to misinterpreting the "70 weeks" in Daniel, and an attempt to make "a little horn" rise from the 4th beast, when in fact he already ROSE from the 3rd beast.

I think you will find that the little horn is mentioned in chapter 8 of Daniel associated with the Grecian empire and is given an army to go against Jerusalem.

The little horn is mentioned in chapter 7 associated with the fourth beast which speaks out great things against God which is happening during this present time.

Then in Revelation 13 the little horn is also called the False Prophet. The little horn makes three appearance over a period exceeding 3,000 years, so to limit the Little horn beast to just one event is not strictly true.

Shalom
 

Lady Crosstalk

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...because we are in fair agreement that the Christians are present during the Great Tribulation. As Revelation 13:7 and Daniel 7:25 tell us.

I think a clue that the Church is not on the earth in the Revelation passage is that both the Daniel and Revelation passages use the same term "saint" (or "set apart for the Lord's service") and it can refer to an Israelite/Jew or a Gentile Christian. Most of the time in the NT, a follower of Christ (a Christian) is called a "believer," a "disciple" or collectively, "the Church". A subtle distinction to be sure, but it may be an important one.
 

farouk

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I think a clue that the Church is not on the earth in the Revelation passage is that both the Daniel and Revelation passages use the same term "saint" (or "set apart for the Lord's service") and it can refer to an Israelite/Jew or a Gentile Christian. Most of the time in the NT, a follower of Christ (a Christian) is called a "believer," a "disciple" or collectively, "the Church". A subtle distinction to be sure, but it may be an important one.
It would seem also that the Great Tribulation passage in Matthew 24 does not refer to the church as we know it today...
 
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Earburner

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Matthew 24 seems to speak of a unique coming event known as the 'great triublation'.
See what I mean, in how you approach it?
Your mind is on auto pilot, looking for a defined date, for a religiously fabricated event, that triggers some sort of likeness, to what you have imagined, of how "tribulation" should take place in the world.
The verses of your confusion is Mat. 24-15-22.
Not by your fault, but rather by the "religious hocus-pocus" side show of nonsense, that they have filled your head with, of which has been going on for hundreds of years.
What if I told you that the "abomination of desolation" took place along time ago, and will never happen again!
 

farouk

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See what I mean, in how you approach it?
Your mind is on auto pilot, looking for a defined date, for a religiously fabricated event, that triggers some sort of likeness, to what you have imagined, of how "tribulation" should take place in the world.
The verses of your confusion is Mat. 24-15-22.
Not by your fault, but rather by the "religious hocus-pocus" side show of nonsense, that they have filled your head with, of which has been going on for hundreds of years.
What if I told you that the "abomination of desolation" took place along time ago, and will never happen again!
Verse 21 of Matthew 24:

"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."
 
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Lady Crosstalk

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It would seem also that the Great Tribulation passage in Matthew 24 does not refer to the church as we know it today...

Yes. Most Bible scholars agree that the Gospel of Matthew was written to the Jews and many also believe that Jesus was addressing Jewish believers when He spoke of the Great Tribulation. He also told the Philadelphian Church (Rev. 3:10) that He would keep them from the hour of trial (trouble or tribulation) that was coming on the whole world. Luke 21:36 also says that we should pray always that we be counted as worthy enough to escape all the things which would be coming on the world during those tumultuous times. That is the "Blessed Hope"--that we would not have to suffer physical death before ascending to heaven.
 
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farouk

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Yes. Most Bible scholars agree that the Gospel of Matthew was written to the Jews and many also believe that Jesus was addressing Jewish believers when He spoke of the Great Tribulation.
Matthew undoubtedly has a strong, Jewish background. It begins with an earthly genealogy, suggestive of close identification with an earthly people, Israel, whereas Ephesians strongly stresses the heavenly identity of the church, for example.
 
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Keraz

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Yes. Most Bible scholars agree that the Gospel of Matthew was written to the Jews and many also believe that Jesus was addressing Jewish believers when He spoke of the Great Tribulation. He also told the Philadelphian Church (Rev. 3:10) that He would keep them from the hour of trial (trouble or tribulation) that was coming on the whole world. Luke 21:36 also says that we should pray always that we be counted as worthy enough to escape all the things which would be coming on the world during those tumultuous times. That is the "Blessed Hope"--that we would not have to suffer physical death before ascending to heaven.
As we Christians are told that we must endure until the end, Matthew 24:13, 1 Corinthians 10:13, Revelation 13:10 & 14:12, + do not expect God to rapture you away from testing and trials. 1 Peter 4:12-19

The only people who won't suffer physical death, are those faithful ones who have their names Written in the Book of life and are living at the end of the Millennium, when the Great White Throne Judgement takes place.

Going to live in heaven is an impossibility; Jesus said so: John 3:13, John 7:34, John 17:15, + Proverbs 10:30, Psalms 115:16, and the fact there are no scriptures that say God's people will go to heaven. Eventually God and therefore heaven, comes to us. Revelation 21:1-17

I am not sorry to present these facts to you, as it will be far better for everyone to know the truth of our future, that to be 'thrown into the deep end', so to speak; when the end time events do commence.
 
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Lady Crosstalk

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As we Christians are told that we must endure until the end, Matthew 24:13, 1 Corinthians 10:13, Revelation 13:10 & 14:12, + do not expect God to rapture you away from testing and trials. 1 Peter 4:12-19

Yes, Jesus told us that we would have trouble in this world--that is true. He even said that we would be hated and that they hated Him first. But He did tell the Church of Philadelphia that they would be protected from the trials that would be coming on the world. (Rev. 3:10) The Great Tribulation is the time of the exercise of God's Wrath on the unbelieving world and the Church is NOT appointed to God's wrath.

The only people who won't suffer physical death, are those faithful ones who have their names Written in the Book of life and are living at the end of the Millennium, when the Great White Throne Judgement takes place.
I do not believe in post-millennialism. When ALL pertinent Scripture is accounted for, the Pre-Millennial Rapture of the Church is the only position that is tenable. Read Dwight Pentecost's, Things To Come and you will be convinced.

Going to live in heaven is an impossibility; Jesus said so: John 3:13, John 7:34, John 17:15, + Proverbs 10:30, Psalms 115:16, and the fact there are no scriptures that say God's people will go to heaven. Eventually God and therefore heaven, comes to us. Revelation 21:1-17
Paul certainly believed that he was going to heaven when he said "Absent from the body, present with the Lord." Unless you believe that Jesus is somewhere besides being in heaven seated on a throne next to the Father's?
 

Earburner

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1. I think you will find that the little horn is mentioned in chapter 8 of Daniel associated with the Grecian empire and is given an army to go against Jerusalem.

2. The little horn is mentioned in chapter 7 associated with the fourth beast which speaks out great things against God which is happening during this present time.

3. Then in Revelation 13 the little horn is also called the False Prophet. The little horn makes three appearance over a period exceeding 3,000 years, so to limit the Little horn beast to just one event is not strictly true.

Shalom
1. I agree.
His name was Antiochus Epiphanes of the Seleucid Empire (1 of 4 horns of the Hellenistic kingdoms- Grecian Empire- 3rd beast.

2. I disagree.
Read the KJV only- While the Hellenistic kingdoms were operative, in the latter time of their (3rd beast kingdoms, the 4th beast with 10 horns was rising to power. In the midst of their rise, Antiochus Epiphanes (little horn) of the 3rd beast, rose among them, being not of them.
If there be any clarity, DO NOT read the visions of Daniel with the interpretation of the angel Gabriel. He is the authority, and not Daniel or any church.
Read the angel's interpretations separately.

3. I strongly disagree!!
There was ONLY one "little horn" to come, and that WAS Antiochus Epiphanes.

The false Prophet of Rev. Is the 2H lamb like beast.
It has its own mouth, and speaks as a dragon, making fire (weapons of war) come down from heaven in the sight of men.
The other mouth speaking is the UN.
Europe (10 horns beast) has a mouth speaking also.