The Coming Great Apostasy

farouk said:

Verse 21 of Matthew 24:

"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

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Ever since WW1, haven't we BEEN in great tribulation?
Or do you want to isolate it to only 7 years?
If so why?

Earburner said:

Ever since WW1, haven't we BEEN in great tribulation?
Or do you want to isolate it to only 7 years?
If so why?

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Matthew 24.21 speaks of a truly unique event in world history. "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

Lady Crosstalk said:

Yes, Jesus told us that we would have trouble in this world--that is true. He even said that we would be hated and that they hated Him first. But He did tell the Church of Philadelphia that they would be protected from the trials that would be coming on the world. (Rev. 3:10) The Great Tribulation is the time of the exercise of God's Wrath on the unbelieving world and the Church is NOT appointed to God's wrath.

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All correct: Christians have had persecution, but today most have no real problems in worshipping as we please. This has lead to complacency and the belief of many in the 'rapture to heaven' of the Church has compounded this.

We will be protected not removed, during the great and terrible Day of the Lord's wrath. We must Call upon His Name and He will save us. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

Lady Crosstalk said:

I do not believe in post-millennialism. When ALL pertinent Scripture is accounted for, the Pre-Millennial Rapture of the Church is the only position that is tenable. Read Dwight Pentecost's, Things To Come and you will be convinced.

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Sadly, we are told how people will believe fables; 2 Timothy 4:3-4, and stop their ears to the truth.
The Bible simply never says that God will take His people to heaven. Paul said He would like to go there, just as you do, but he never did go to heaven and he awaits, as Daniel 12:13 does too; the end of the ages for his reward of Eternal life.

Earburner said:

Ever since WW1, haven't we BEEN in great tribulation?
Or do you want to isolate it to only 7 years?
If so why?

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We are in the birth pangs of the new era. Matthew 24:7-8
The prophesied Great Tribulation of Revelations 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls will happen during the last 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns.

Keraz said:

We are in the birth pangs of the new era. Matthew 24:7-8
The prophesied Great Tribulation of Revelations 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls will happen during the last 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns.

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Yes, the words are "of great tribulation" , and not "THE" Great Tribulation"
Why do you claim it's for 7yrs? And why are you dividing it in half?
The 70 weeks of Daniel speaks of nothing of a 7 yr. Tribulation that you are describing, nor does Revelations!

Keraz said:

We are in the birth pangs of the new era. Matthew 24:7-8
The prophesied Great Tribulation of Revelations 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls will happen during the last 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns.

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Well you got that bit right, and when the contractions get closer together as it does just before birth, things will get a far more worse than what we see now.

Earburner said:

1. I agree.
His name was Antiochus Epiphanes of the Seleucid Empire (1 of 4 horns of the Hellenistic kingdoms- Grecian Empire- 3rd beast.

2. I disagree.
Read the KJV only- While the Hellenistic kingdoms were operative, in the latter time of their (3rd beast kingdoms, the 4th beast with 10 horns was rising to power. In the midst of their rise, Antiochus Epiphanes (little horn) of the 3rd beast, rose among them, being not of them.
If there be any clarity, DO NOT read the visions of Daniel with the interpretation of the angel Gabriel. He is the authority, and not Daniel or any church.
Read the angel's interpretations separately.

3. I strongly disagree!!
There was ONLY one "little horn" to come, and that WAS Antiochus Epiphanes.

The false Prophet of Rev. Is the 2H lamb like beast.
It has its own mouth, and speaks as a dragon, making fire (weapons of war) come down from heaven in the sight of men.
The other mouth speaking is the UN.
Europe (10 horns beast) has a mouth speaking also.

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You are welcome to hold whatever interpretation that you like to hold, but your argument does not hold up to close examination. Neither do I consider that I should only read the KJV to have enlightenment as you are suggesting. The KJV is just as fallible as any other English translation of the source texts from which they have been translated. The precedence you are up holding is that the beasts are of human form whereas the scripture gives a number of clues that would suggest that all of the beasts are fallen heavenly hosts which are spirits that stir up the sea of humanity and as the text suggest the beasts are manifested out of the sea of people by those people who chose to inhabit the dominions of the respective beasts.

I would contend that your premise on which you have built your understanding bears no resemblance to the scriptures themselves, be it, in your case, the KJV Bible.

The Reformation understanding was to find a means to demonise the Roman Catholic Church and so the scriptures were used for a political end to enable the Reformational churches to break away from the Roman Catholic Church an establish a new precedence on which the Gospel copuld be based.

Please consider a very different paradigm from the one that you are saddled with.

Shalom

Dave L said:

Matthew 24 mentions 2 tribulations. The great Jewish tribulation, beginning in AD 70. And Christian tribulation remaining until the end of the world. Apart from this distinction, confusion prevails.

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I think that two GT periods would be confusing. It seems the destruction of the temple early in that chapter (V1 - V2) and then talking about the lead up to the Time of Jacob's Trouble / Tribulation with that period following. Seems pretty straightforward. A - B - C.

Keraz said:

As we Christians are told that we must endure until the end, Matthew 24:13, 1 Corinthians 10:13, Revelation 13:10 & 14:12, + do not expect God to rapture you away from testing and trials. 1 Peter 4:12-19

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Well, Peter and Paul were at odds from time to time..... Even Peter admitted Paul's writings were valid though. Some keep looking for the beast / antichrist / man of sin but I will keep looking for the Messiah. Then we will all be at least looking expectantly.

Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

2 Timothy 4:8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him,
2 That ye be not suddenly moved from your mind, nor troubled neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as it were from us, as though the day of Christ were at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

2 Thessalonians 2:5-8 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

1 Thessalonians 4:17-18 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Kinda hard to be comforting to the brethren when one is telling them to expect to live thru the worse period of time that has ever come upon this planet. Sure doesn't sound like a blessed hope to go thru that period. But all who want to go thru that period, maybe it is their blessed hope. It think that going thru the tribulation period would be the blasted hope. But I guess we each have our own perspectives on these things. King David and Isaiah seemed to have this worked out. That is a couple of heavy hitters, so I think I will side with them.

And Yeshua in Hosea laid it out pretty clear what the main focus of the Tribulation Period is. And no, it is not about with church purification, testing of the saints, and much of the other stuff that folks throw out there.

Jay Ross said:

1. You are welcome to hold whatever interpretation that you like to hold, but your argument does not hold up to close examination.all of
2. Neither do I consider that I should only read the KJV to have enlightenment as you are suggesting. The KJV is just as fallible as any other English translation of the source texts from which they have been translated.
3. The precedence you are up holding is that the beasts are of human form whereas the scripture gives a number of clues that would suggest that all of the beasts are fallen heavenly hosts which are spirits that stir up the sea of humanity and as the text suggest the beasts are manifested out of the sea of people by those people who chose to inhabit the dominions of the respective beasts.

4. I would contend that your premise on which you have built your understanding bears no resemblance to the scriptures themselves, be it, in your case, the KJV Bible.

5. The Reformation understanding was to find a means to demonise the Roman Catholic Church and so the scriptures were used for a political end to enable the Reformational churches to break away from the Roman Catholic Church an establish a new precedence on which the Gospel copuld be based.

Please consider a very different paradigm from the one that you are saddled with.

Shalom

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1. Most of the doctrines of Christendom (church-ianity), are derived and fabricated from the analytical, fleshly minds of "scholarly learning", being not of "the Mind of Christ". Isa. 55:8-9.
Therefore, for one to conduct a closer examination, one must confirm in themselves, from whose mind (source) they are learning from. John 16:13.

2. The KJV was translated from the Textus Receptus Greek text. Most modern versions of today, are translated from Wescott and Hort Greek text.
I am not surprised by the intense level of confusion, that exists among Christians. This site alone, is a prime example of that confusion.

3. The term of " beasts" is only symbolic of the nature of the kingdoms/empires of men.
However, that is not to say that the kingdoms of men are not influenced by satan. The fall of himself and his horde, are deeply entrenched in this world. For them, it is their place of endless death, correctly symbolized as "the bottomless pit".

4. In order for you to say that, you must have confirmed in yourself, that all of your learning is accomplished by the Mind of Christ, and never was/is influenced by religious commentators, and/or the many so called christian authors out there. Unfortunately, I perceive that the latter is true.

5. Yes, the very work of church-ianity is still at work, splintering itself into oblivion. Thank God that there is only ONE Savior!

The only paradigm that shall ever effectively "guide us into all truth", is "the Mind of Christ" , which is the Holy Spirit of God. Rom. 8:9
Therefore, "whosoever hath not the Spirit God/Christ, he is none of His".
IOWS, ALL of their learning is derived from the mind(s) of men, and not God!!

Keraz said:

We will be protected not removed, during the great and terrible Day of the Lord's wrath. We must Call upon His Name and He will save us. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

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The Bible says that we will meet the Lord in the air and that then we will ever be with Him. (1 Thes. 4:16-18) "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.…"

This says NOTHING about us having to "call upon His Name". Where do you think Jesus is or will be? If we are going to join Him (remember, on the night before He died, He said that He was going to prepare a place for us, so that we could be where He is) and He also said, in the same context, that in the Father's house (heaven) are many abiding places." (John 14:2)

The Bible simply never says that God will take His people to heaven. Paul said He would like to go there, just as you do, but he never did go to heaven and he awaits, as Daniel 12:13 does too; the end of the ages for his reward of Eternal life.

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Correction: Paul said he had BEEN THERE--whether in the body or out of his body, he didn't know (see 2 Cor. 12:2). Paul said he had been "caught up" (and the same Greek word, harpazo is used for "caught up" as is used in the 1 Thessalonians 4 passage) to the "third heaven". The "third heaven" is--God's dwelling place (see 1 Kings 8:30 and Psalm 33:13). The "first heaven" is the created universe and the "second heaven" is the area immediately above the earth--i.e. the atmosphere.

Copperhead said:

I think that two GT periods would be confusing. It seems the destruction of the temple early in that chapter (V1 - V2) and then talking about the lead up to the Time of Jacob's Trouble / Tribulation with that period following. Seems pretty straightforward. A - B - C.

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Jesus told his disciples "when you see these things". = present tense, second person plural. = They saw it in their lifetimes.

Lady Crosstalk said:

The Bible says that we will meet the Lord in the air and that then we will ever be with Him. (1 Thes. 4:16-18) "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.…"

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The truth of the rapture is very clear in Scripture.

Lady Crosstalk said:

Yes, Jesus told us that we would have trouble in this world--that is true.

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"In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world" (John 16.33).

Who are the "Christians" Jesus never knew, whom he rejects on the last day? They cast out demons, prophesy and do wonderful works "in his name"? Doesn't sound like mainline believers.

Dave L said:

Who are the "Christians" Jesus never knew, whom he rejects on the last day? They cast out demons, prophesy and do wonderful works "in his name"? Doesn't sound like mainline believers.

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There have always been counterfeit "Christians" from the early days of the Church (see the Letters to the Seven Churches of Revelation). They will all be raised on the Last Day to face the Final Judgment.

Keraz said:

We are in the birth pangs of the new era. Matthew 24:7-8
The prophesied Great Tribulation of Revelations 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls will happen during the last 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns.

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lol, think so huh? Fwiw mjr agrees with you, on Scripture; not a place I would like to find myself wadr.

farouk said:

The truth of the rapture is very clear in Scripture.

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lol, think so huh?

I mean, literal much?

Lady Crosstalk said:

There have always been counterfeit "Christians" from the early days of the Church (see the Letters to the Seven Churches of Revelation). They will all be raised on the Last Day to face the Final Judgment.

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My mind went to Luke 6.46: "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"