The Coming Great Apostasy

farouk said:

The truth of the rapture is very clear in Scripture.

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There is no scripture that says that God will take His people to heaven. Many say He won't;

John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from heaven.
John 17:15 ...I pray Father, you keep them from the evil one....
John 7:34...where I go you cannot come....
John 8:21-23....I am not of this world, you cannot go where I go....
Revelation 5:10....the saints will reign on earth....
ALL Words of Jesus that totally, utterly and completely refute the false and extremely un biblical rapture theory.

John 14:1-3 is not talking about a rapture removal to heaven. Jesus says: I will come back.... from heaven to earth and then: we will always be with Him.
Realize this, you raptureists, a removal to heaven was never part of God's plan for ancient Israel and it isn't His plan now.
Do you say the Lord's prayer? ......Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven......Who is tasked to carry out His will on earth? Us Christians, that's who and hoping to be removed when things get tough is nothing short of escapism and cowardice.

I know these hard facts will cause upset for everyone who has been taught they will be raptured to heaven. But I have to do it, to shock you into finding out for yourselves what God really does want, rather than just believing what someone has told you.
The first belief to get out of your minds, is the Two People, Two Promises. There is only ONE people of God. Ephesians 4:4-6 Those righteous people will go to live in all of the Holy Land soon after all that area is de-populated by the Lord's Day of wrath. Ezekiel 34:11-31 describes it best.
That will be like heaven, as those true believers, who have proved their faith during the Day of cloud and darkness, live there and experience the amazing blessings of God to His people.

Keraz said:

There is no scripture that says that God will take His people to heaven. Many say He won't;

John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from heaven.
John 17:15 ...I pray Father, you keep them from the evil one....
John 7:34...where I go you cannot come....
John 8:21-23....I am not of this world, you cannot go where I go....
Revelation 5:10....the saints will reign on earth....
ALL Words of Jesus that totally, utterly and completely refute the false and extremely un biblical rapture theory.

John 14:1-3 is not talking about a rapture removal to heaven. Jesus says: I will come back.... from heaven to earth and then: we will always be with Him.
Realize this, you raptureists, a removal to heaven was never part of God's plan for ancient Israel and it isn't His plan now.
Do you say the Lord's prayer? ......Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven......Who is tasked to carry out His will on earth? Us Christians, that's who and hoping to be removed when things get tough is nothing short of escapism and cowardice.

I know these hard facts will cause upset for everyone who has been taught they will be raptured to heaven. But I have to do it, to shock you into finding out for yourselves what God really does want, rather than just believing what someone has told you.
The first belief to get out of your minds, is the Two People, Two Promises. There is only ONE people of God. Ephesians 4:4-6 Those righteous people will go to live in all of the Holy Land soon after all that area is de-populated by the Lord's Day of wrath. Ezekiel 34:11-31 describes it best.
That will be like heaven, as those true believers, who have proved their faith during the Day of cloud and darkness, live there and experience the amazing blessings of God to His people.

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I really don't want to argue with you, Sir. There are plenty of verses in Revelation about the redeemed surrounding the Throne of the Lamb in heaven. There is no point in trying to argue it away.

bbyrd009 said:

I mean, literal much?

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Why should we not take Scripture literally? All of the OT prophecies (the ones that have been fulfilled) have been fulfilled quite literally. A standard conservative rule of hermeneutics is that something should be taken literally unless it is clear that it is figurative. There are some interpreters who opt for a great deal of spiritualization. They are building castles in the air.

Lady Crosstalk said:

Why should we not take Scripture literally? All of the OT prophecies (the ones that have been fulfilled) have been fulfilled quite literally. A standard conservative rule of hermeneutics is that something should be taken literally unless it is clear that it is figurative. There are some interpreters who opt for a great deal of spiritualization. They are building castles in the air.

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'Spiritualizing' everything will lead to a lot of confusion. And yes, I like the expression, 'castles in the air'. The French speak of 'chteaux en Espagne'...

Earburner said:

1. Most of the doctrines of Christendom (church-ianity), are derived and fabricated from the analytical, fleshly minds of "scholarly learning", being not of "the Mind of Christ". Isa. 55:8-9.
Therefore, for one to conduct a closer examination, one must confirm in themselves, from whose mind (source) they are learning from. John 16:13.

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Agreed

Earburner said:

2. The KJV was translated from the Textus Receptus Greek text. Most modern versions of today, are translated from Wescott and Hort Greek text.
I am not surprised by the intense level of confusion, that exists among Christians. This site alone, is a prime example of that confusion.

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Agreed

Earburner said:

3. The term of " beasts" is only symbolic of the nature of the kingdoms/empires of men.
However, that is not to say that the kingdoms of men are not influenced by Satan. The fall of himself and his horde, are deeply entrenched in this world. For them, it is their place of endless death, correctly symbolized as "the bottomless pit".

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False. The beasts of the Book of Revelation are wicked demonic fallen heavenly Hosts. The same is also true of Daniel.

Earburner said:

4. In order for you to say that, you must have confirmed in yourself, that all of your learning is accomplished by the Mind of Christ, and never was/is influenced by religious commentators, and/or the many so called Christian authors out there. Unfortunately, I perceive that the latter is true.

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False. The usual understandings/misunderstandings is what rises up out of the woodwork and condemns what I post as being wrong. As for being a devourer of what others write about the end times or prophetic outcomes, I stand alone with what I write.

Earburner said:

5. Yes, the very work of church-ianity is still at work, splintering itself into oblivion. Thank God that there is only ONE Savior!

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Agreed

Earburner said:

The only paradigm that shall ever effectively "guide us into all truth", is "the Mind of Christ" , which is the Holy Spirit of God. Rom. 8:9
Therefore, "whosoever hath not the Spirit God/Christ, he is none of His".
IOWS, ALL of their learning is derived from the mind(s) of men, and not God!!

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Agreed. That was why I said, "You are welcome to hold whatever interpretation that you like to hold, but your argument does not hold up to close examination."

Now the spirit does prompt me to consider more closely the English translations because in my spirit I am prompted to question the translation of the original source texts from which the translations have been made. I do go back to the Textus Receptus Greek text and look for the context of the Greek. Now I am not a Greek or Hebrew scholar in that I have been taught how to read and understand those languages, but from work experience I know the importance of coming to the same conclusion and understanding as the author of a written text. If our understanding is not the same as the author's understanding, then we are way off base in finding the treasure hidden within what the author has written.

Your identification of historical people as being the little horn etc. which cannot be derived from the Bible, tells me that your understanding of the End Times Prophecies is skewed by the leanings of men.

Now if what I have come to understand of when a number of events will occur and is within the ball park of understanding the End Time Prophecies, then time will confirm the truth of the matter and provide the evidence.

Now with twenty-twenty hindsight we can identify people and people groups as being the stooges for the wicked demonic fallen heavenly hosts as they act under the influence of the beasts of the scriptures. But being able to identify the stooges that have accomplished the beasts' desired/prophetic outcomes does not mean that we have identified the "brains/influencers/villians" behind the stooges. We have only identified the stooges and that is all.

You have demonstrated that you have identified the stooges, but you have not demonstrated that you even know who or what the beasts are.

Shalom

Keraz said:

There is no scripture that says that God will take His people to heaven. Many say He won't;

John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from heaven.
John 17:15 ...I pray Father, you keep them from the evil one....
John 7:34...where I go you cannot come....
John 8:21-23....I am not of this world, you cannot go where I go....
Revelation 5:10....the saints will reign on earth....
ALL Words of Jesus that totally, utterly and completely refute the false and extremely un biblical rapture theory.

John 14:1-3 is not talking about a rapture removal to heaven. Jesus says: I will come back.... from heaven to earth and then: we will always be with Him.
Realize this, you raptureists, a removal to heaven was never part of God's plan for ancient Israel and it isn't His plan now.
Do you say the Lord's prayer? ......Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven......Who is tasked to carry out His will on earth? Us Christians, that's who and hoping to be removed when things get tough is nothing short of escapism and cowardice.

I know these hard facts will cause upset for everyone who has been taught they will be raptured to heaven. But I have to do it, to shock you into finding out for yourselves what God really does want, rather than just believing what someone has told you.
The first belief to get out of your minds, is the Two People, Two Promises. There is only ONE people of God. Ephesians 4:4-6 Those righteous people will go to live in all of the Holy Land soon after all that area is de-populated by the Lord's Day of wrath. Ezekiel 34:11-31 describes it best.
That will be like heaven, as those true believers, who have proved their faith during the Day of cloud and darkness, live there and experience the amazing blessings of God to His people.

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Uh--where do I start? First of all, in John 3:13, Jesus is confirming the teaching that the OT saints were not yet in heaven. They were said to be "in the bosom of Abraham"--in Hades (the Greek word for simply, the "place of the dead." In Hebrew, it was sheol). In the teaching of the Jews, Sheol/Hades was divided into two sections: the place of the righteous dead, where Abraham presided, and the "place of punishment" where the unrighteous dead would go. Jesus refers to the same in the tale of the "other Lazarus" in Luke 16. Jesus went to preach to the righteous souls in Hades ("Abraham delighted to see my day") and to take them with Him to heaven after the resurrection. Unfortunately, our English translators translate both Hades and Gehenna as hell and they are not the same. Gehenna is Aramaic for "the Lake of Fire". It was said that the place of punishment in Hades had a gate at the bottom level which led out to the "Lake of Fire".

I will get to the other objections you have when I get the time.

p.s. in the John 7:34 passage, He was speaking to UNBELIEVERS. Of course they would not be going to heaven with Him.

Lady Crosstalk said:

Why should we not take Scripture literally? All of the OT prophecies (the ones that have been fulfilled) have been fulfilled quite literally. A standard conservative rule of hermeneutics is that something should be taken literally unless it is clear that it is figurative. There are some interpreters who opt for a great deal of spiritualization. They are building castles in the air.

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Fine, then Quote Jesus returning literally, and we'll go from there, and I guess also see who's building castles in the air. Scripture can tell you why you shouldn't take it so literally wadr

Lady Crosstalk said:

Gehenna is Aramaic for "the Lake of Fire"

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no it isn't, sorry. Gehenna was and is a place on earth.
Does Eternal mean Immortal to you, bac?

Lady Crosstalk said:

Uh--where do I start? First of all, in John 3:13, Jesus is confirming the teaching that the OT saints were not yet in heaven. They were said to be "in the bosom of Abraham"--in Hades (the Greek word for simply, the "place of the dead" In Hebrew, it was sheol) In the teaching of the Jews, Sheol/Hades was divided into two sections: the place of the righteous dead, where Abraham presided, and the "place of punishment" where the unrighteous dead would go. Jesus refers to the same in the tale of the "other Lazarus" in Luke 16. Jesus went to preach to the righteous souls in Hades ("Abraham delighted to see my day") and to take them with Him to heaven after the resurrection. Unfortunately, our English translators translate both Hades and Gehenna as hell and they are not the same. Gehenna is Aramaic for "the Lake of Fire". It was said that the place of punishment in Hades had a gate at the bottom level which led out to the "Lake of Fire".

I will get to the other objections you have when I get the time.

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It goes to show that saying Israel and the church are just the same, is hard to do from Scripture. The rapture is explicitly linked with the church (1 Thess. 4).

farouk said:

It goes to show that saying Israel and the church are just the same, is hard to do from Scripture. The rapture is explicitly linked with the church (1 Thess. 4).

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Yet literally speaking "rapture" is in Scripture many times, but we aren't discussing any of those vv right. And it's curiously absent from the vv used for rapture too, hmm. Like "Jesus, Returning"
I thought this 'literal' kick got put to bed with the snake handlers lol

farouk said:

It goes to show that saying Israel and the church are just the same, is hard to do from Scripture.

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you think? I dunno how much clearer not all who are born Israel are of Israel could be myself, hmm

Lady Crosstalk said:

There have always been counterfeit "Christians" from the early days of the Church (see the Letters to the Seven Churches of Revelation). They will all be raised on the Last Day to face the Final Judgment.

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How about the "charismatic nature" of those Jesus describes? He is not speaking on mainline believers who do not do these things.

bbyrd009 said:

Lol, no it isn't.

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It literally means, "the valley of Hinnom" and was the place where the Israelites sacrificed their children to Molech. In Jesus' day, it had become a garbage dump where rotting animal carcasses were thrown. The stench got so bad in the summer, that the people living downwind would set fire to it in the hope that it would eliminate some of the horrible smell. Must have been a hellish place--it was figurative of the Lake of Fire.

Lady Crosstalk said:

It literally means, "the valley of Hinnom" and was the place where the Israelites sacrificed their children to Molech. In Jesus' day, it had become a garbage dump where rotting animal carcasses were thrown. The stench got so bad in the summer, that the people living downwind would set fire to it in the hope that it would eliminate some of the horrible smell. Must have been a hellish place--it was figurative of the Lake of Fire.

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Grim considerations, indeed...

Dave L said:

How about the "charismatic nature" of those Jesus describes? He is not speaking on mainline believers who do not do these things.

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I have absolutely no idea what point you are trying to make.

Lady Crosstalk said:

It literally means, "the valley of Hinnom" and was the place where the Israelites sacrificed their children to Molech. In Jesus' day, it had become a garbage dump where rotting animal carcasses were thrown. The stench got so bad in the summer, that the people living downwind would set fire to it in the hope that it would eliminate some of the horrible smell. Must have been a hellish place--it was figurative of the Lake of Fire.

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With the critical diff that it is a place on earth, and fwiw Israelites are again sacrificing their children to Molech there today--along with US--when you see where that is. Anyway, this future that is envisioned can always be considered in the context of a single future, your future, and lake of fire becomes something you toss stuff into, maybe, in your future

Do you think Eternal means Forever though?

Groper,

I think you are trying to make my day surreal--but, you will have to express yourself more clearly--I just find you incomprehensible.

bbyrd009 said:

... I guess also see who's building castles in the air. Scripture can tell you why you shouldn't take it so literally wadr

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Please state book, chapter and verse where Scripture tells us we "shouldn't take it so literally".

Davy said:

Yeah, I know how to 'read' God's Word as written, and allow The Holy Spirit to give me understanding in IT!

But apparently, you listen to another spirit, since each Bible student is called to actually study The Bible as written with The Holy Spirit Comforter as our Guide. It doesn't mean to throw away the written pages of Holy Writ!!!

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You are obviously not considering nor allowing for the complete process to be fulfilled. You acknowledge the Holy Spirit, but then turn back to what came before...as did the Pharisees. Not a good practice.

The full and complete process, is: "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God", followed and "finished" by the Holy Spirit...for all language (including the scriptures) have been "confounded" by God Himself. But you act as if the words themselves are infallible, rather than God. "Holy Writ" indeed! Such a practice is against Christ. There's a word for that.

Earburner said:

Ever since WW1, haven't we BEEN in great tribulation?

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No, we have not. Rest assured that when Christ said it is an absolutely unique event -- such as never was since time began, nor ever will be -- He meant every word. And since He connected the aftermath of the Great Tribulation to a total shaking of the heavens and the earth, so that all heavenly bodies and mountains and islands on earth would be displaced, it is an event which will be in the future. And there are a sequence of events preceding that, which are all described in Revelation.

Or do you want to isolate it to only 7 years? If so why?

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The Great Tribulation is isolated to the latter half of seven years (3 1/2 years less a few months) and the reason for that is because the Abomination of Desolation is set up just prior to the Great Tribulation, and is the result of that blasphemy.