Calvinism is a Cult

Preacher4Truth · Feb 21, 2019

Dave L said:
What you do not understand is how sinful people are to begin with. We are spiritually dead and unable to discern spiritual truth at any level. In this state we have only flesh faith. The kind of faith you have when you buy advertised products. And you buy an advertised Christ not able to discern or know the true one. It is always an idol bearing his name.

But; the New Birth changes all of this. “And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.” (Deuteronomy 30:6) (KJV 1900)

And these hear the gospel and recognize the true Christ. And love God and hate sin. This results in holiness as a lifestyle.

Agreed, good stuff!

One major thing that teachers like himself err on is that they dismiss the inability of the creature to come to Christ for salvation, which is an impossibility; John 6:44; John 6:65; John 6:44; John 6:63; John 3:27; 1 Corinthians 4:7; James 1:18.

They will spend an exorbitant amount of time pitting Scripture against Scripture and this truth to exalt man and make him able, contrary to revealed truth. That makes it another gospel.

justbyfaith · Feb 21, 2019

I would simply contend that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved, Romans 10:13.

If Calvinism preaches contrary to this, then I will believe the Bible over and above Calvinism any day of the week.

Calvinism claims to bring assurance to its adherents; but for those who have called on the name of the Lord it attempts to strip away the faithful assurance that God wants to give to them.

Dave L · Feb 21, 2019

justbyfaith said:
I would simply contend that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved, Romans 10:13.

If Calvinism preaches contrary to this, then I will believe the Bible over and above Calvinism any day of the week.

Calvinism claims to bring assurance to its adherents; but for those who have called on the name of the Lord it attempts to strip away the faithful assurance that God wants to give to them.

Will any who call upon the name of a false Jesus be saved?

FHII · Feb 21, 2019

Laish said:
One thing though Servetus wasn’t turned over to Catholic authorities

I really hate making mistakes, but this one of them, though I wasn't entirely wrong. According to New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia Calvin did alert a Dominican inquisitor (named Oly) but this was before he (Servetus) was in Geneva where he was burned. It happened in Vienna.

Enoch111 · Feb 21, 2019

Dave L said:
Will any who call upon the name of a false Jesus be saved?

The false Jesus is the one you are promoting. The one who only died for the elect. And the one who shunts the majority to Hell by His decree. A caricature of the true God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Dave L · Feb 22, 2019

Enoch111 said:
The false Jesus is the one you are promoting. The one who only died for the elect. And the one who shunts the majority to Hell by His decree. A caricature of the true God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

You are misrepresenting Christ, disconnecting him from scripture that clearly refutes your ideas about him.

Preacher4Truth · Feb 22, 2019

Enoch111 said:
The false Jesus is the one you are promoting. The one who only died for the elect. And the one who shunts the majority to Hell by His decree. A caricature of the true God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Does Christ shunt others? Such a statement is calling God out for his ways and decrees. I'd tread lightly.

So, God owes and is obligated to give everyone a chance to vote for him, or he's not fair? He cannot execute justice on sinners unless he fulfills your obligation to offer the opportunity to vote for him?

Here's the thing, not all have heard, and not all will hear. If these are judged for their sin, the punishment is just. You would call that unjust, better yet, God unjust, which is what you are doing as per Romans 9:20.

Do you see God in his foreknowledge choosing those for salvation who would "accept" him?

Mjh29 · Feb 22, 2019

Enoch111 said:
The false Jesus is the one you are promoting. The one who only died for the elect. And the one who shunts the majority to Hell by His decree. A caricature of the true God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

By His decree or because of their sin? You are mixing up what sends people to hell. This implies that there is not reason other than God wanting to send people to hell, which if we're being honest we know that just isn't true.

God does not choose people for hell. People choose hell over God, unless he chooses to have mercy on those whom He will have mercy.

justbyfaith · Feb 22, 2019

Mjh29 said:
God does not choose people for hell. People choose hell over God,

So you agree with the concept of free will. Because they choose it. If they don't have free will they have no ability to choose. Therefore, if they can choose, it means that they have free will, the ability to choose hell over heaven; or heaven over hell.

If they cannot choose heaven, then they did not choose hell. It was simply put on them that they would go there at the end of their lives; and they had not choice in the matter.

justbyfaith · Feb 22, 2019

justbyfaith said:
I would simply contend that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved, Romans 10:13.

If Calvinism preaches contrary to this, then I will believe the Bible over and above Calvinism any day of the week.

Calvinism claims to bring assurance to its adherents; but for those who have called on the name of the Lord it attempts to strip away the faithful assurance that God wants to give to them.

Mjh29 · Feb 22, 2019

Enoch111 said:
The false Jesus is the one you are promoting. The one who only died for the elect. And the one who shunts the majority to Hell by His decree. A caricature of the true God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

I will ask again, because no one seems to want to answer the question;

You make it out that God is unjust, unfair, cruel even if He doesn't offer everyone a chance at salvation.

We are depraved creatures that God created out of nothing but the mud and dirt of the ground, who found life by His great mercy, created for one reason; to worship and fellowship with Him. This creature, Adam, was told He would be the representative head of all mankind, and by him we would either live or die. God even warned Adam, which He didn't really have to do in the first place! But because He loved us, He told Adam the consequence of defying Him, and Adam turned around and spat in His face, choosing literally the only other available option other than doing what God said. And even though man was told he would surely die that day, God allowed him to live another, clothed Him in the bloody garments of one of His own creation, and punished Satan the worst of all.

Now, in light of this, explain to me on what grounds is God obligated, forced to offer salvation to all? What obligates God? Why would He be any less if the vast multitude of believers [which will far outweigh the non-believers; this isn't some secret club of 2 or 3.... the elect are a number no man can number; Christians are a number much greater than non] were chosen by Him?

Picture it this way; There was a certain king, who ruled over the lands. His kingdom was peaceful, and he was the most generous, caring, compassionate, and approachable king in all the lands. So much so, that he would fellowship with the peasants, allowing them to freely come and eat of His bounty. He did not ask for tax, or for any form of payment; all He asked is loyalty. But there was another king, who was cunning and sly, and though the good King warned his people that betrayal would result in death, they all spat in his face and ran to the other king. The good king, not standing for such indignity, swore to destroy the other king, for his crimes against the good king's former citizens. The good kings forces were mighty, and he easily overpowered the evil tyrant. After taking the city, he is now in possession of his former peasants, the very same whom He warned would face death if they betrayed him.

On what grounds is this king obligated to give each and every one of these infidels the chance to once again join his kingdom?

Mjh29 · Feb 22, 2019

justbyfaith said:
So you agree with the concept of free will. Because they choose it. If they don't have free will they have no ability to choose. Therefore, if they can choose, it means that they have free will, the ability to choose hell over heaven.

If they cannot choose heaven, then they did not choose hell. It was simply put on them that they would go there at the end of their lives; and they had not choice in the matter.

No, I believe in fallen will. They CHOOSE hell because they sold their wills to Satan, who now controls the desires of their hearts. Only if God free's their wills can they choose Him.

You assume that if they can't choose heaven, they are forced to hell begging and screaming that they want heaven. No. They can only choose hell because of Satan's grasp on their hearts, but don't think for a moment that following their lustful desires and living a life of sin is not 100% what they absolutely want to do.

Preacher4Truth · Feb 22, 2019

Mjh29 said:
No, I believe in fallen will. They CHOOSE hell because they sold their wills to Satan, who now controls the desires of their hearts. Only if God free's their wills can they choose Him.

You assume that if they can't choose heaven, they are forced to hell begging and screaming that they want heaven. No. They can only choose hell because of Satan's grasp on their hearts, but don't think for a moment that following their lustful desires and living a life of sin is not 100% what they absolutely want to do.

Exactly. The fact is they hate God, truth, God's people, and righteousness and would be unfit in heaven.

justbyfaith · Feb 22, 2019

Mjh29 said:
I will ask again, because no one seems to want to answer the question;

You make it out that God is unjust, unfair, cruel even if He doesn't offer everyone a chance at salvation.

We are depraved creatures that God created out of nothing but the mud and dirt of the ground, who found life by His great mercy, created for one reason; to worship and fellowship with Him. This creature, Adam, was told He would be the representative head of all mankind, and by him we would either live or die. God even warned Adam, which He didn't really have to do in the first place! But because He loved us, He told Adam the consequence of defying Him, and Adam turned around and spat in His face, choosing literally the only other available option other than doing what God said. And even though man was told he would surely die that day, God allowed him to live another, clothed Him in the bloody garments of one of His own creation, and punished Satan the worst of all.

Now, in light of this, explain to me on what grounds is God obligated, forced to offer salvation to all? What obligates God? Why would He be any less if the vast multitude of believers [which will far outweigh the non-believers; this isn't some secret club of 2 or 3.... the elect are a number no man can number; Christians are a number much greater than non] were chosen by Him?

Picture it this way; There was a certain king, who ruled over the lands. His kingdom was peaceful, and he was the most generous, caring, compassionate, and approachable king in all the lands. So much so, that he would fellowship with the peasants, allowing them to freely come and eat of His bounty. He did not ask for tax, or for any form of payment; all He asked is loyalty. But there was another king, who was cunning and sly, and though the good King warned his people that betrayal would result in death, they all spat in his face and ran to the other king. The good king, not standing for such indignity, swore to destroy the other king, for his crimes against the good king's former citizens. The good kings forces were mighty, and he easily overpowered the evil tyrant. After taking the city, he is now in possession of his former peasants, the very same whom He warned would face death if they betrayed him.

On what grounds is this king obligated to give each and every one of these infidels the chance to once again join his kingdom?

Though he may not be obligated, if this king is truly the infinite love that he claims to be, He will receive those people back into His kingdom as citizens for that He loves them. The only condition being that they repent of their former wickedness and return to the king in loyalty; and all is forgiven; because forgiveness is a major aspect of love in the Bible.

If betrayal would result in death, it would be at the hands of the other, wicked king.

However the compassionate king, because He is loving, will also offer forgiveness to those who will return to Him in loyalty (repentance). Those who will not repent will not avail themselves of the forgiveness that the compassionate king offers.

Therefore reacceptance into the kingdom would be predicated on the citizen repenting (returning to the king in loyalty).

Because the compassionate king is compassionate and loving, He receives them back.

In the bigger picture, He shows them what their rebellion did to Him by placing in front of them the emblem of the Cross on which He died; so that anyone who truly loves the compassionate king will not rebel again when they see what their rebellion did to the One they love.

And also, since His dying on the Cross purchased their forgiveness, those reinstated into citizenship would fall in love with the virtue and lovingkindness of the compassionate king, so that they will never rebel again.

Preacher4Truth · Feb 22, 2019

Look, God is on trial. "If" he is who he says he is...then he will do this... says @justbyfaith our resident heretic.

Funny thing, that is the same ultimatum Satan gave to the Son of God in Matthew 4. Yep.

Mjh29 · Feb 22, 2019

justbyfaith said:
Though he may not be obligated, if this king is truly the infinite love that he claims to be, He will receive those people back into His kingdom as citizens for that He loves them. The only condition being that they repent of their former wickedness and return to the king in loyalty; and all is forgiven; because forgiveness is a major aspect of love in the Bible.

If betrayal would result in death, it would be at the hands of the other, wicked king.

However the compassionate king, because He is loving, will also offer forgiveness to those who will return to Him in loyalty (repentance). Those who will not repent will not avail themselves of the forgiveness that the compassionate king offers.

Therefore reacceptance into the kingdom would be predicated on the citizen repenting (returning to the king in loyalty).

Because the compassionate king is compassionate and loving, He receives them back.

In the bigger picture, He shows them what their rebellion did to Him by placing in front of them the emblem of the Cross on which He died; so that anyone who truly loves the compassionate king will not rebel again when they see what their rebellion did to the One they love.

And also, since His dying on the Cross purchased their forgiveness, those reinstated into citizenship would fall in love withe virtue and lovingkindness of the compassionate king, so that they will never rebel again.

Exactly. He is not obligated to accept back any of them. All the rest of what you said is just showing what your theology is really driven by; feelings. Nothing more than feelings. Not Scripture, where Christ claims He came to divide, to seek and save [not seek and make it so people could save themselves], not on the fact that God clearly states some He loves and other He hates, or that before they were born or done any wrong, He had chosen one and not the other, not on the fact that the condemnation is that men love darkness rather than light, because in their hearts the are deceitful above all else and desperately wicked. Not the fact that the definition on the word Omnipotent means ALL power, which would include power unto salvation. Feelings.

SovereignGrace · Feb 22, 2019

Preacher4Truth said:
Does Christ shunt others? Such a statement is calling God out for his ways and decrees. I'd tread lightly.

So, God owes and is obligated to give everyone a chance to vote for him, or he's not fair? He cannot execute justice on sinners unless he fulfills your obligation to offer the opportunity to vote for him?

Here's the thing, not all have heard, and not all will hear. If these are judged for their sin, the punishment is just. You would call that unjust, better yet, God unjust, which is what you are doing as per Romans 9:20.

Do you see God in his foreknowledge choosing those for salvation who would "accept" him?

“For grace to be grace, it must be free. If God has to offer grace to everybody indiscriminately, then it’s no longer grace, but merit.” Dr. James White(paraphrased his quote)

Preacher4Truth · Feb 22, 2019

SovereignGrace said:
“For grace to be grace, it must be free. If God has to offer grace to everybody indiscriminately, then it’s no longer grace, but merit.” Dr. James White(paraphrased his quote)

Yes. Grace owed is not grace.

Mjh29 · Feb 22, 2019

Preacher4Truth said:
Yes. Grace owed is not grace.

Grace owed would be debt.... so we disobeyed God and sinned and for that He is in debt to us. RIIIiiight....

justbyfaith · Feb 22, 2019

Mjh29 said:
No, I believe in fallen will. They CHOOSE hell because they sold their wills to Satan, who now controls the desires of their hearts. Only if God free's their wills can they choose Him.

Back to square one.

The Father drawing someone to Jesus, and the Father giving someone to Jesus, are two different things.

When the Father draws a man to Christ, he is enabled to make an unhindered decision either for or against Christ.

If that person chooses Christ, then the Father gives them to Christ.

So then, it is not that they are regenerated in order to be able to have faith, but that the Holy Spirit draws them to Christ.

Christ reaches out His hand to them to see if they will take hold of it.

If His hand is not stretched out, there is no possibility of them being able to reach up and take hold of His hand.

Jhn 1:12, But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Rev 3:20, Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Rev 22:17, And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Concerning the last verse here: If you do not say with the Spirit to the unbelieving, Come; are you not therefore not of His bride?

And yet in Calvinism, those who hold to it do not say to the unbelieving, Come.

For in Calvinism, no one has the ability to come to Christ, why then extend the invitation?

I would point out something simple that you should take to heart even if you believe in Calvinism. It is written,

2Co 6:1, We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2Co 6:2, (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

The word "succour" means to help.

So God helps you in the day of salvation, that is not in question.

But in Calvinism (and in the Bible), you cannot come to Christ unless the Father is drawing you/helping you.

But the point of this scripture is that now is the day of salvation.

So if He is calling you to make a decision for Him today, do not presume that, "Well, He is not really drawing me to Christ, and therefore I cannot come."

If the time that you are contemplating Christ is now, then it is the accepted time and the day of salvation.

You can call on the name of the Lord today and be saved.

You will not be able to excuse yourself on that day, saying, "But I thought that you had to be drawing me to Christ in that moment; and I believed that you were not doing so."

If the moment that you are being faced with the gospel message is now, then He is drawing you to Christ in that moment.

If you say yes to Christ, then the Father will give you to Christ.

Do not presume that you have been given to Christ if you have never called on His name or received Him.

Rom 10:9, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10, For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11, For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12, For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Jhn 1:12, But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Rev 22:17, And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Rev 3:20, Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

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