Is Faith in Jesus Faith to Keep the Law?

mjrhealth said:

If a man has not love, the law is just an excuse to boast as many do.

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I know many people who love and who are great doers of good. Unfortuenetly they do not love Jesus.

In what way do you disagree with what you quoted from my post?

Windmillcharge said:

I know many people who love and who are great doers of good. Unfortuenetly they do not love Jesus.

In what way do you disagree with what you quoted from my post?

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Than they will be judge by there works, but than it is sometimes better to be ignorant as Jesus put it,

Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

They are far better off than those who claim to love Christ yet ..

Mat_15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

marks said:

When we are born again, is it so that we will now be able to keep the Mosaic Covenant? The 10 Commandments?

This is how I answer.

Romans 7:1-4
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

According to James, the Law is a single unit. If you break one law, you are a law breaker. Paul speaks of the law that includes coveting (vs. 7) which is included in the 10 commandments. Either way, this includes the 10 commandments.

The married woman is bound by the law of marriage to her husband, but if he be dead, she is loosed from that law. She no longer has to keep it. He's dead. She's free. Even if she were to try to return to the law of marriage, it would just be a horror story because he's dead. There won't be any resemblence of any kind to the previously existing marraige because he is dead. A corpse. You don't get up in the morning and have coffee with a corpse.

That marriage no longer exists. He is dead. She is loosed.

So in the same way, we are dead to the law, including the 10 commandments. Being joined to Christ has made us free from the law previously given. Even if we were to try to have some relationship with the law now, it is just as unseemly as trying to be married to a corpse. It won't be what was. Marriage was never meant to survive the death of the spouse.

And in fact, the comparison gets worse. Being joined to Jesus and seeking a return to the law would be like being married, but insisting on propping up the corpse of husband #1 with his cup of coffee also.

At least, if we use the example God gave, that's what it looks like.

Is this how Paul lived? Absolutely.

1 Corinthians 9:19-21 “For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

Paul felt perfectly free to live as those without law. This did not make him “lawless”, an accusation that's been made against me as well. Under the Law of Christ.

Go ahead. Say it. “The 'Law of Christ' is just another name for the 10 commandments.”

But my question for you is this. How can that be, considering God's example of marriage?

Much love!
Mark

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Paul's reference to the law is not the law of God....but the laws that constitute holiness...or those things that were mere markers of an actual walk with God.

mjrhealth said:

God changes a man a when a man is willing to follow after Him so that he can wear the righteousness of Christ, not by any of His own works but by Faith, because by faith all things are justified, and all you do is seek to justify your works and your religion just as BOL and MM do, in that you are no different, the mother of all harlots and her children having a family dispute. which is the prettiest, all thinking they are His bride but wont be found worthy for they wont come out so they can be washed clean.

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......and you maintain your position so you may justify your sin.

Episkopos said:

Paul's reference to the law is not the law of God....but the laws that constitute holiness...or those things that were mere markers of an actual walk with God.

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wow, now that is confusion!

marks said:

I appreciate your responses! A few questions if I may . . .

On what basis do we separate the 10 commandments from the remainder of the commandments?

What gives us the authority to regard some of God's commandments, and disregard others?

And why has no one addressed the example of our relationship the Law from marriage shown in Romans 7?

Thank you!
Much love!
Mark

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Some believe that if they can fulfill one command that their observation of the one compensated for their total failure in the others.

Episkopos said:

Paul's reference to the law is not the law of God....but the laws that constitute holiness...or those things that were mere markers of an actual walk with God.

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Good to see someone else has read about the new command

quietthinker said:

......and you maintain your position so you may justify your sin.

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Sin, how does one justify sin, or is it just plain ignorance to the work Christ has done, God hasnt changed His position and neither has Christ and they wont change it for you, you want teh law it is yours, it is for sinners after all, and that you have clearly claimed you are.

marks said:

“The 'Law of Christ' is just another name for the 10 commandments.”

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Do like what you said in the OP. For me, I just can’t understand when all things have been made new and the old has passed away...When God said behold He creates a new heaven and earth how then the “law of Christ” becomes keeping the sabbath: one day holy to serve Him.

In the new heaven and earth will the new creatures (created in Christ) serve a holy day, a sabbath day set apart from all others. when there IS no more time: No more days, No more years, No more man’s attempt to understand what a day or a year is in relation to God. And how do we then thrust upon the children of God the command of Honour Father and mother and bring them back under the bondage of keeping what was a shadow? We call this the ‘law of Christ’ when Matthew 23:9 says: And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Who is the Father of the children of God? Who is the mother of the children of God? Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. ....which is outside of man’s time. Colossians 2:16-17 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days : [17] Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

What Father did Christ Honour? What mother? No doubt ‘the law of Christ’ stands and remains but God said the law of Christ is fulfilled by the fruit of the Spirit(not the flesh) In Galatians 5:22-23
[22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Ephesians 5:9-11
[9] (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth [10] Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. [11] And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them .

Galatians 5:14
[14] For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

One word...what IS that word?

marks said:

When we are born again, is it so that we will now be able to keep the Mosaic Covenant? The 10 Commandments?

This is how I answer.

Romans 7:1-4
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

According to James, the Law is a single unit. If you break one law, you are a law breaker. Paul speaks of the law that includes coveting (vs. 7) which is included in the 10 commandments. Either way, this includes the 10 commandments.

The married woman is bound by the law of marriage to her husband, but if he be dead, she is loosed from that law. She no longer has to keep it. He's dead. She's free. Even if she were to try to return to the law of marriage, it would just be a horror story because he's dead. There won't be any resemblence of any kind to the previously existing marraige because he is dead. A corpse. You don't get up in the morning and have coffee with a corpse.

That marriage no longer exists. He is dead. She is loosed.

So in the same way, we are dead to the law, including the 10 commandments. Being joined to Christ has made us free from the law previously given. Even if we were to try to have some relationship with the law now, it is just as unseemly as trying to be married to a corpse. It won't be what was. Marriage was never meant to survive the death of the spouse.

And in fact, the comparison gets worse. Being joined to Jesus and seeking a return to the law would be like being married, but insisting on propping up the corpse of husband #1 with his cup of coffee also.

At least, if we use the example God gave, that's what it looks like.

Is this how Paul lived? Absolutely.

1 Corinthians 9:19-21 “For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

Paul felt perfectly free to live as those without law. This did not make him “lawless”, an accusation that's been made against me as well. Under the Law of Christ.

Go ahead. Say it. “The 'Law of Christ' is just another name for the 10 commandments.”

But my question for you is this. How can that be, considering God's example of marriage?

Much love!
Mark

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You are correct, and yet marriage is only a good analogy up until one enters into the kingdom...which comes at the point of new birth by the spirit of God. Those in the kingdom do not take or give in marriage, but are espoused already with the Son. Thus, the law of Moses is of sin and death, but the law of Christ is unto life. But he who has Christ has past from death to life, meaning that the law is fulfilled. Not by us, but by Christ, in whom we have life. Therefore, Paul clarifies, saying, "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit."

mjrhealth said:

Sin, how does one justify sin, or is it just plain ignorance to the work Christ has done, God hasnt changed His position and neither has Christ and they wont change it for you, you want teh law it is yours, it is for sinners after all, and that you have clearly claimed you are.

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Only one who justifies

mjrhealth said:

Sin, how does one justify sin, or is it just plain ignorance to the work Christ has done, God hasnt changed His position and neither has Christ and they wont change it for you, you want teh law it is yours, it is for sinners after all, and that you have clearly claimed you are.

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God reveals to us clearly the standard by which judgement is made and as you have rightly said, God hasn't changed his position. The scripture tells us he is the same yesterday, today and forever.

VictoryinJesus said:

Do like what you said in the OP. For me, I just can’t understand when all things have been made new and the old has passed away...When God said behold He creates a new heaven and earth how then the “law of Christ” becomes keeping the sabbath: one day holy to serve Him.

In the new heaven and earth will the new creatures (created in Christ) serve a holy day, a sabbath day set apart from all others. when there IS no more time: No more days, No more years, No more man’s attempt to understand what a day or a year is in relation to God. And how do we then thrust upon the children of God the command of Honour Father and mother and bring them back under the bondage of keeping what was a shadow? We call this the ‘law of Christ’ when Matthew 23:9 says: And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Who is the Father of the children of God? Who is the mother of the children of God? Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. ....which is outside of man’s time. Colossians 2:16-17 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days : [17] Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

What Father did Christ Honour? What mother? No doubt ‘the law of Christ’ stands and remains but God said the law of Christ is fulfilled by the fruit of the Spirit(not the flesh) In Galatians 5:22-23
[22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Ephesians 5:9-11
[9] (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth [10] Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. [11] And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them .

Galatians 5:14
[14] For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

One word...what IS that word?

Click to expand...

I would like to speak to two words you have used ViJ, namely bondage and freedom.
The limitation bondage is that it cannot be free. It is enslaved. It has the image of freedom in that it chooses everything that glorifies the self.
Freedom also has limitations. The limitation of not choosing bondage and living by that choice.

The scripture clearly outlines the principles of freedom yet ancient Israel chose bondage in spite of their miraculous deliverance from bondage.
These things are examples for us today so that we may not fall by the same mistakes
We are given all things pertaining to freedom and life (the two of which are synonymous) We have been taken out of the house of bondage and given power to live as free men and women. Will we now revert to the delicacies of Egypt to satisfy the carnal nature arguing against the holy principles written by God's own finger?

quietthinker said:

God reveals to us clearly the standard by which judgement is made and as you have rightly said, God hasn't changed his position. The scripture tells us he is the same yesterday, today and forever.

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Except for one part,

Joh_12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Any concept of righteousness or holiness that comes by faith but isn't reflected by the individual in his every day walk with Christ, is a false faith for it isn't evidenced by works. "Righteousness by faith" is not a cloak that covers sin...it is the power of God that frees man to live in harmony with God's will. Living a life in harmony with the commandments of God isn't a works based path to salvation because as everyone knows, obedience is impossible without Christ..."without Me ye can do nothing"...so the only other conclusion is that God has empowered that individual to do just that...live in obedience. Is God not capable of doing that? Well, is He or is He not?
To repeatedly claim the people cannot obey all the commandments, is very true. They can't, but we aren't ordinary people are we. We are partakers of the divine nature. We can do all things through Christ Who strengthens us.
Stop placing limits on God's power and start living up to the potential each and every one of us is promised by the Word...
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Phil.1:9 ¶ And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;
10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;
11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Yes because we submit to one God when we are saved which is one of the mosaic covenants. Therefore we do not bow down to idols or speak falsely to our neighbours to deceive them.

marks said:

When we are born again, is it so that we will now be able to keep the Mosaic Covenant? The 10 Commandments?

This is how I answer.

Romans 7:1-4
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

According to James, the Law is a single unit. If you break one law, you are a law breaker. Paul speaks of the law that includes coveting (vs. 7) which is included in the 10 commandments. Either way, this includes the 10 commandments.

The married woman is bound by the law of marriage to her husband, but if he be dead, she is loosed from that law. She no longer has to keep it. He's dead. She's free. Even if she were to try to return to the law of marriage, it would just be a horror story because he's dead. There won't be any resemblence of any kind to the previously existing marraige because he is dead. A corpse. You don't get up in the morning and have coffee with a corpse.

That marriage no longer exists. He is dead. She is loosed.

So in the same way, we are dead to the law, including the 10 commandments. Being joined to Christ has made us free from the law previously given. Even if we were to try to have some relationship with the law now, it is just as unseemly as trying to be married to a corpse. It won't be what was. Marriage was never meant to survive the death of the spouse.

And in fact, the comparison gets worse. Being joined to Jesus and seeking a return to the law would be like being married, but insisting on propping up the corpse of husband #1 with his cup of coffee also.

At least, if we use the example God gave, that's what it looks like.

Is this how Paul lived? Absolutely.

1 Corinthians 9:19-21 “For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

Paul felt perfectly free to live as those without law. This did not make him “lawless”, an accusation that's been made against me as well. Under the Law of Christ.

Go ahead. Say it. “The 'Law of Christ' is just another name for the 10 commandments.”

But my question for you is this. How can that be, considering God's example of marriage?

Much love!
Mark

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They have followed after other idols because they stayed not with their first estate.

mjrhealth said:

Spiritual men, would not be following men, they would follow Christ because they know His voice and wont follow after stangers. Spiritual men know the law profits nothing because is is by faith we are justified and it is faith that please God, spiritual men have noting to boast of but Jesus Christ for they know there works profit nothing, Spiritual men trust God and the works of Christ to save them by faith, and know by faith they are already saved and justified in Christ..

You dont keep the law, not even the Sabbath, for even that you profane because the law is nit by faith, it is by works, so you never rest, because we rest in Christ from our own, and you have never stopped working.

Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

all simply unbelief. No matter how many time you look in that mirror all you will ever see is the outside of the cup.

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Windmillcharge said:

We do not live to obey the law in order to earn our salvation instead we show our love for Jesus by our obedience and voluntary compliance with the law.

The law tells us how to live as David wrote in the psalms Gopds law is a lamp for his feet, showing him hw to walk in Godlyness.

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Yes because we earn salvation based on our ability to trust and obey God. Love displays our ability to trust and obey him because God does not grant salvation without works.

Kristen Davis said:

Yes because we earn salvation based on our ability to trust and obey God. Love displays our ability to trust and obey him because God does not grant salvation without works.

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No one earns salvation. It is always through God's mercy. God first loved us....not the other way around. We have not earned anything.

God IS love. He loves because He loves. For no human reason. He has mercy on whom He wills. For no apparent human reason. No one can figure God out and make a theology that defines God and His decisions.

God is fully UNPREDICTABLE. God is FREE. Religion likes to define Him and limit Him to some religious agenda. But God is fully sovereign.

Every action of man is only good if God judges it so. There is not objective goodness outside of God. God defines us...not we Him.

Here is something that few Christians understand (because of indoctrination) "We are all at the mercy of God's unforeseeable decisions" Now a religious person will feel threatened by this...since he wants to control God. But a spiritual person is liberated by this... God is a God of grace. Religion wants a God who serves us so that the grace and freedom are for us, not God. But grace frees others....God included.

quietthinker said:

I would like to speak to two words you have used ViJ, namely bondage and freedom.
The limitation bondage is that it cannot be free. It is enslaved. It has the image of freedom in that it chooses everything that glorifies the self.
Freedom also has limitations. The limitation of not choosing bondage and living by that choice.

The scripture clearly outlines the principles of freedom yet ancient Israel chose bondage in spite of their miraculous deliverance from bondage.
These things are examples for us today so that we may not fall by the same mistakes
We are given all things pertaining to freedom and life (the two of which are synonymous) We have been taken out of the house of bondage and given power to live as free men and women. Will we now revert to the delicacies of Egypt to satisfy the carnal nature arguing against the holy principles written by God's own finger?

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I’m by no means saying I’m right. Maybe I just haven’t gotten there quietthinker. There are still so many questions I have. This is only the way I see it at the moment until He corrects where needed. The creation was made subject to vanity. Vanity IS the bondage of corruption man is under. The sum of it all: greed, lust, pride. James 4:1-3 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? [2] Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. [3] Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

Look at the world today and almost all stems from there at the creation was made subject to vanity by the same who subjected it to hope. What seems clear is the message Jesus Christ showed man. You speak of freedom and bondage...the way out of ‘self’ promotion is God’s way which is in the Son. Not in empty words of “I believe” but a willingness to lose all if needed which does something inside to the heart. Every thing He displayed was for another’s benefit. Even the: you must hate mother and father and even your own life and come after me or you can not be my disciple. Which I hear as not cruel but Him saying come this path away from vanity and hate...He calls “this way” is freedom. He was low. He was meek. He was humble. He sacrificed all for His enemies so that they might have mercy and life. Matthew 11:28-30 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. [29] Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. [30] For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Come all you who labour to have more of this world...God will give you rest from corruption and vanity. learn of the Son. He is meek and low in heart ...His burden is light. No striving to obtain. No envy. no greed. No lust. But love, joy, and peace. Peace not as the world gives...

Could go on and on about the hope God revealed in the sufferings of the Son in being free from the bondage of vanity through love for another. In 1 John 3:16
[16] Hereby perceive we the love of God , because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. —It has nothing to do with earning anything or what we appear like to men...it is about Him wanting man to be free from the corruption of the bondage of vanity in HOPE in the Son.

In regards to the Law. The laws of Christ are beautiful and merciful and indeed light...So I’m not in any way fighting against them. The Law is good. I just go in the opposite direction of anything that seems to promote man doing them on his own.

Psalm 19:7
[7] The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.