Is Faith in Jesus Faith to Keep the Law?

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Kristen Davis

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Except for one part,

Joh_12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Yes because God cannot change who he is because he created the heavens and the Earth and governs the way people act. Many people choose to be led astray because they transgress against the law. God's judgement shall come upon them because they adopt their own set of principles and become idols themselves.
 
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marks

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So two distinct and separate laws...two distinct and separate purposes. God's law...a reflection or written transcript of righteousness and holiness; Moses law...the means by which to attain to living in harmony with those laws.

Hi brakelite,

This is something I haven't seen in Scripture, this idea of two distinctly separate laws, with separate purposes. Where can I read about "God's Law" and "Moses' Law"?

I know that John wrote that the Law came through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Where is the place that tells me the remainder of the commandments were added because the 10 commandments were broken?

You've mentioned Galatians 3:19, but that's not specific, it simply says "law". Not which law.

It seems to me that when the Bible speaks of the Law is speaks of the entire covenant made between God and Israel at Horeb. Yes, part written on stone, and part dictated. Yes, part kept inside, and part kept outside, where it can be referenced.

But all of it God's Law.

I don't know. As much as I think about it, I can't think of anywhere that "God's Law" and "Moses' Law" are differentiated in the Bible. Help me?

Much love!
Mark
 

marks

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There is a time coming that God says He will cause a people to keep His Law:


Ezekiel 11:14-20
Again the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Son of man, thy brethren, even thy brethren, the men of thy kindred, and all the house of Israel wholly, are they unto whom the inhabitants of Jerusalem have said, Get you far from the Lord: unto us is this land given in possession. Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord God; Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come. Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord God; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel. And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence. And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Ezekiel 36:24-28
For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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I believe the Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD because Jesus rose from the dead "Late on the Sabbath in the mid-afternoon before the First Day of the week".

Any objections? Raise them against the Lord of the Sabbath, not against the Lord's Day.
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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God changes a man a when a man is willing to follow after Him so that he can wear the righteousness of Christ, not by any of His own works but by Faith

"'when a man is willing...'" is "'his own works'" before as after he started "'to follow ... of his own'".

And "'wear the righteousness of Christ'"? Never seen it written in the Scriptures or any man able to wear it.
 
B

brakelite

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Hi brakelite,

This is something I haven't seen in Scripture, this idea of two distinctly separate laws, with separate purposes. Where can I read about "God's Law" and "Moses' Law"?

I know that John wrote that the Law came through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Where is the place that tells me the remainder of the commandments were added because the 10 commandments were broken?

You've mentioned Galatians 3:19, but that's not specific, it simply says "law". Not which law.

It seems to me that when the Bible speaks of the Law is speaks of the entire covenant made between God and Israel at Horeb. Yes, part written on stone, and part dictated. Yes, part kept inside, and part kept outside, where it can be referenced.

But all of it God's Law.

I don't know. As much as I think about it, I can't think of anywhere that "God's Law" and "Moses' Law" are differentiated in the Bible. Help me?

Much love!
Mark
There was much more that differentiated the two laws other than what they were written on and where they were kept. God Himself spoke the Ten Commandments before etching them on stone. And not just ordinary stone. But stone that came from His own throne...blue sapphire. Blue from that time on came to represent God's law. The blue tassels on the bottom of the priests clothing represented his commitment to keeping God's commandments.
The civil laws, the laws regarding their worship and how they were to conduct their daily lives as people of a theocratic nation, were written by Moses and he read them to the people, acting as a mediator. The contrast between the two laws is stark. The obvious symbology in the entire process was also clear and evident. The stone was a sign of permanence...the law written upon it was eternal, as it reflected the very righteousness of the Lawmaker. It was a transcript of His character. God's righteousness is forever...eternal...never can it change or be altered. To change His law was tantamount to attempt to change Him. This was what the "little horn" of Daniel 7 proposed to accomplish...a change to the law of God. No big deal to change other laws, whether they be civil or otherwise, but for a power to "think to change times and laws", was way beyond what any normal change in government usually sets out to do. This power, this ecclesiastical power, sought to change God's law. And in its own mind, has believed itself capable of doing so. Sadly, many people have followed its example.
By contrast the laws of Moses could be changed. And they were...one example of this of course was the change that allowed Jesus to become a High Priest despite His belonging to the tribe of Judah, not Levi. The change in the law of circumcision for God's people, the change in the laws regarding sacrifice and oblation...observation of feast days and festivals...all of which were shadows that pointed to Messiah...these things are no longer law for the Christian...although it is perfectly acceptable for anyone to observe them, they are no longer compulsory. God's Ten Commandments however, still stand.
We know that observation of such things in the law of Moses are now voluntary, as Paul said in Colossians 2.
16 ¶ Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
The shadows have now met their substance. Note what Jesus said in Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Christ made it clear that the purpose of the law of Moses was to prepare Israel for Him. Paul agreed with this idea when he said to the Roman church,
10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Paul is not talking about the Ten Commandments here, saying they no longer are valid, because Christ ended them. No, Christ was the goal, the aim of the law, the final manifestation of all that the law spoke of in Moses, the prophets, and psalms. In that last phrase in Romans 10:5 Paul is quoting Leviticus 18:5
1 ¶ And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the LORD your God.
3 After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances.
4 Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God.
5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.
Through Moses God was telling Israel that no longer were they to obey the traditions, the ordinances, and laws that for 400 years they had been subject to. God was giving them a new way of life. Today, there is a new covenant. 1 Cor.7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. Here Paul again reveals the distinction between the two laws. While one is now practically meaningless, although having profound spiritual application, the other he exalts as essential.

It is quite easy to recognise that the apostle Paul spoke of two distinct laws in his letters. For example, Paul wrote,

Gal. 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Now of course everything Paul wrote above is true and correct. But then elsewhere he wrote:

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law....and
7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Is he really speaking of the same law...the same whole entire Torah? One a curse, the other holy just and good? One that cannot justify, and one that we establish through faith?

The Ten Commandments, God's law, lies at the heart of both covenants. Which is why Jesus said, despite knowing that Moses laws were soon to be 'nailed to the cross', that
Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
And yet also said,
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21 ¶ Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire....

making it abundantly clear that while the law of Moses was fulfilled in Him and no longer casting a shadow over Israel, no longer to be the burden it once was, and no longer 'against' them, Jesus confirmed that the law of God, that same law which spoke of murder and lust, (as Paul also said elsewhere convicted him rightly of covetousness) was never to be altered, cast aside, or abrogated. Every one of the ten stands permanent, and somewhere in the middle east is still etched permanently on those stone tables, no less permanent than God's throne. To transgress those laws is treason against God's authority as King and Lord. To lay aside God's laws as a burden, impossible to keep, no longer obligatory, or a curse, is to denigrate the foundation of the very kingdom we all claim to be members of.
 
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GerhardEbersoehn

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John 1:13
[13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Yes? no?

"To them .. born of the will of _God_ (not of man!) He (Jesus Christ, not man) gave power to become the sons of God : to them who believe in His Name : _not_ believe in the will of the flesh or the will of man."
 

quietthinker

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Any concept of righteousness or holiness that comes by faith but isn't reflected by the individual in his every day walk with Christ, is a false faith for it isn't evidenced by works. "Righteousness by faith" is not a cloak that covers sin...it is the power of God that frees man to live in harmony with God's will. Living a life in harmony with the commandments of God isn't a works based path to salvation because as everyone knows, obedience is impossible without Christ..."without Me ye can do nothing"...so the only other conclusion is that God has empowered that individual to do just that...live in obedience. Is God not capable of doing that? Well, is He or is He not?
To repeatedly claim the people cannot obey all the commandments, is very true. They can't, but we aren't ordinary people are we. We are partakers of the divine nature. We can do all things through Christ Who strengthens us.
Stop placing limits on God's power and start living up to the potential each and every one of us is promised by the Word...
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.


Phil.1:9 ¶ And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;
10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;
11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
You are right in what you say in this post brakelite. Objection to this is because of lack of comprehension. It is not possible for the mind not renewed by God's Spirit to understand these things as you know. The mind not renewed is darkened deceiving itself into thinking it has great light.
Rome's history tells us clearly the oppression that paves its road; the road that Protestantism is willingly marching down.
 
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farouk

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Yes because we earn salvation based on our ability to trust and obey God. Love displays our ability to trust and obey him because God does not grant salvation without works.
Works do give evidence of faith (Ephesians 2.10) but salvation itself is by grace, though faith, not of works (Ephesians 2.8, 9): it has to be all of grace.
 

mjrhealth

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Nor won't Mjr Sick leave his.
I didnt know God and Jesus where a religion, and your words dont speak highly of you..

Mat 20:25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
Mat 20:26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;

and again

Act 7:47 But Solomon built him an house.
Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
Act 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
Act 7:50 Hath not my hand made all these things?
Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

and Jesus

Joh 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
Joh 10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
Joh 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
Joh 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Joh 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

who need religion when one has Christ
 

mjrhealth

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"To them .. born of the will of _God_ (not of man!) He (Jesus Christ, not man) gave power to become the sons of God : to them who believe in His Name : _not_ believe in the will of the flesh or the will of man."
Amazing thing about it, not one single bit of it is earned or deserved that is what is so amazing about God.
 

Taken

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OP <-- Is Faith in Jesus Faith to Keep the Law.

When we are born again, is it so that we will now be able to keep the Mosaic Covenant? The 10 Commandments?

The Ten Commandments, first WRITTEN, in stone, by God.

(Oops, Moses BROKE all Ten Commandments, when he BROKE the Tablets of stone, WRITTEN by God)

A foreshadow?

Forward...
...All 10 Commandments are rewritten.

Forward...
...Moses writes Laws (by Gods authority)
...The written Laws, are 'under', (no greater)
.......than the 10 Commandments.

Forward...
...Moses "gives" the Commands of God and
.....Laws to his people (clan/tribe).

Forward...
...The people..."AGREE" to obey the;
......Commands and Laws
......( MORE SPECIFICALLY...
.......PEOPLE AGREE, to "DO ALL" they are
.......TOLD.)
<--- KEY knowledge

Forward...
....Aaron appointed Priest
.....Sons of the Priest, appointed to
........carry on Priest position of fathers
Priest's position;
......Authority to:
..........hear disputes between men
..........pronounce consequences for
.............law violations
........(consequences, are In the law).

Agreeing People...continue agreeing
...Ex 19:8
...Josh 1:16
...Jer 42:20

Forward...
...Clans/Tribes increase, move about, have disputes among their clans, clashes with Gentiles, stop agreeing, split apart, some remain together, some mingle in Gentile cities and adopt Gentile ways, Priests appointed outside of father to sons.

The BIG picture hinges on;
God reveals Knowledge.
Trust His knowledge & direction, and He will guide you.

People have a Natural instinct to Trust themselves and other people, that are in conflict with Gods Knowledge;
then the people FEAR the consequences.

The LAWS were guidelines, of HOW TO, know, what is NOT in conflict with God.

The KEY...was for men to TRUST God and Gods Direction, and Experience the result of TRUSTING God. If a man can TRUST God, it is mans Natural instinct to BELIEVE in, that which they TRUST.

Beginning with ADAM, And forward...
Heard, learned, obeyed, disobeyed, feared, suffered consequences, then obeyed, then trusted, then believed, experienced a favorable experience
{ or continued to disobey.}

The KEY..."IS"...for a man to experience ^^^
Those things... in the mans "NATURAL" bodily self.

The Point is;
A Law is a guideline.
A Law, does not prevent behavior.
A Law, does not force behavior.
A Law, is a method, designed to:
....encourage a kind of behavior
....and discourage a kind of behavior
A Law, does not Save a soul.
A Law, does not Quicken a spirit.

Ancient men and forward to this day...
WHO...(with or without THE LAW)...
Have learned, ABOUT God;
Have chosen to TRUST God;
Have chosen to BELIEVE what in they TRUST.
ARE:
GIVEN: (from God)
"Measures of a GIFT of FAITH".

"MEASURES"... are an Important "KEY".

Natural men ARE "finicky" (Impatient, stingy, wanting, demanding, blaming, wishy-washy, etc)

The minute something does not go as they "planned/hoped"... The finger pointing BLAME begins stirring in the thoughts of their natural CARNAL MIND.

IF and WHEN, a mans "hopes/plans" are dashed...and the Blame begins to manifest...
Natural men will ultimately;
DO one of two things...
1) Blame God, (which leads to distrust in God, which leads to disbelief in God, which leads to Measures of Faith, no longer given)
Or
2) Seek God, (for His Word of guidance ), which leads to revealed Trust in God, Belief in God, INCREASED measures of Faith given the man)

No man can KEEP ...obedience TO the LAW, TRUST in God, BELIEF in God....
WITHOUT FAITH (from God).

Jesus, reveals the HIGHLIGTING POINT of the Ten Commandments.

Jesus' POINT, is EVERYTHING about a man, hangs on;
1) foremost; LOVE God above ALL other things.
(The consensus being, an Absolute Faultless, Love, Trust, Belief, Purity, no matter what).
2) secondly; LOVE your neighbor, "AS" yourself.
(The consensus being, LOVE toward others, not measured, against FAULTS.).

Jesus' POINT, is those TWO things ^^ can ONLY be Accomplished IN A MAN...
BY and THROUGH a MAN, "having received";
FAITH from God.

And Further scripture reveals;
"Measures of Faith".... "BECOME"...
"FULL - and FOREVER KEPT" "FAITH-FULLNESS". "In a man"....

WHEN...a man "SUBMITS" to BELIEF in the Lord God; by a TRUE Confession.

THEN, by the Grace of God, and the Power of the Spirit of God...Gods Gift of FULL FAITH is given the man ONCE and FOREVER, being the man IS FOREVER "KEPT" in Trust and Belief in God, "BY the Power of God".

Gods GIFT of "FAITH-FULLNESS" means:

Such a man CAN NEVER AGAIN...
Not trust thee Lord God Almighty;
Not believe in thee Lord God Almighty;
Not love thee Lord God Almighty;
Not be faithful to thee Lord God Almighty;

Such a mans WHOLE (body, soul, spirit)
IS "SEALED" unto: and by;
Thee Lord God Almighty

No Law, failure, trip, bump, influence, enticement, disease, sickness, food, drink, clothing, wealth, poorness, death, accusations, declarations, governments, rulers, men, air, wind, water, fire, earth, hell, heaven, evil spirits...
can BREAK Gods SEAL

AND FYI...Every man, SEALED, unto God;
FOREVER, becomes Gods "inheritance".

(Another intriguing thought...
Mankind is dependant upon God to receive FAITH...
And God is dependant upon mankind to receive His Inheritance)

God Bless,
Taken
 

Taken

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But my question for you is this. How can that be, considering God's example of marriage?

Much love!
Mark

A marriage between a man and a woman, is a foreshadow of a joining of a man KIND of thing, unto thee Lord God.

The Joining of a man and a woman, is dependant upon an agreement between the man and the woman.

The "glue" that "binds" a man and a woman in "agreement", must be the Lord. Without the Lord, the agreement of a man and a woman rests on the limited strength and power of the man and the woman.

A married man and woman can have the Lord as their "glue" and Love one another though the marriage, despite faults.

A married man and woman can be without the Lord as their "glue" and "love" the security of marriage, while not loving, respecting, adoring, or even liking their spouse.

The marriage between a man and a woman, is about two people being tested to make their first major lifelong commitment in their lives.

(Which we find by observation, few are "prepared" to make such a true lifelong commitment. The Reason is obviousl.
Any person committing to a Loan, a Credit, a Promise, a Marriage, WHOM is given an "escape to not honor the commitment"... repeatedly enters into commitments, with the map of "escape" hidden in their gray matter, ready to be used, and readily acceptable by the world.)

The Lord offers men can be JOINED unto Him.
Preparation is "required". Not an option to not be prepared. And the JOINING is Permanent. No "escape" option is offered or acceptable.

Men and Women "joining" are examples...
...preparations for;
Man "Joined" with God which is is infinite.

God Bless,
Taken
 

Taken

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The carnal man cannot obey the law of God, for it is enmity to him. But we are not of the flesh, but of the spirit. Prove to me that a spiritual man cannot obey God's laws. Prove to me that a man, believing in God's promises, (thou shalt not steal eg) cannot do so.

Your teaching projects the understanding;
When a man is become Converted (ie a spiritual man), such a man CAN therefore OBEY the Law.

Whereas my understanding is;
When a man is become Converted (ie a spiritual man), such a man HAS become accomplished (by the Power of God) That the LAW IS FULFILLED.

The LAW beomes FULTILLED, MOOT.

The LAW no longer demands or constrains or has subjection to negative consequences.

The POWER of God supersedes the LAW.
The POWER of God imparts RIGHTEOUSNESS, desire, strength, beyond the confines of the Law.

You are trying to LIMIT Gods power "within you" to be Limited in accordance with the LAW....by teaching Gods Power can help you KEEP the LAW.

Whereas I say, the Law is fulfilled, and Gods POWER 'within me", has no limits.

Taken
 

marks

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And not just ordinary stone. But stone that came from His own throne...blue sapphire. Blue from that time on came to represent God's law.

Hi brakelite,

Still reading, but I came across this, I've missed this before. What is the reference on this one?

Thank you!

Much love!
Mark
 
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marks

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"'when a man is willing...'" is "'his own works'" before as after he started "'to follow ... of his own'".

And "'wear the righteousness of Christ'"? Never seen it written in the Scriptures or any man able to wear it.

Hi Gerhard,

I missed this the first time through, but I think this makes sense to me, at least, in a certain way.

2 Corinthians 3:18 says that we are beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, and are being transformed into His image, from glory to glory, as by the Spirit of the Lord.

I take that to mean that as our lives begin to conform to His will, and we see the goodness of His way in ourselves, we see His glory, the perfection of His Will in lifting the fleshly to become the godly, we see His glory in us, transforming us, His glory becomes our glory (lit. out of glory into glory, think Christmas tag, "From: Glory; To: Glory"), a work of His Spirit.

And to wear the righteousness of Christ, put on the new man, created in God's likeness, in righteousness and true holiness, and, He became sin Who knew no sin that we may become the righteousness of God in Him.

We are recreated righteous with Jesus' righteousness, and as God transforms us, we fulfill the Word which tells us to put off the old man, and put on the new.

Much love!
Mark
 
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