BAPTISM

Rom 4:4-6
4 When people work, their wages are not a gift, but something they have earned.
5 But pe

justbyfaith said:

They are both right.

Romans 4:2 explains the justification that is spoken of by James. Abraham was justified by works, so he has whereof to glory, but not before God. In other words, his justification by works is not in the sight of God; in the sight of God his justification is by faith alone, apart from works (Romans 4:6).

But from our perspective, man looking at the life of Abraham, we do not see Abraham's faith except in the fact that he offered Isaac. It becomes clear that Abraham believed that God would raise Isaac from the dead if he sacrificed him, because Isaac was the child of promise by which God had promised to give him a seed, a multitude like the stars of heaven. This becomes absolutely clear that Abraham believed this in that Abraham took the knife to plunge it into the flesh of his dear son. The only reason why Isaac did not die that day is because God called to Abraham and stayed his hand. But Abraham's faith was shown to those of us who see faith by behaviour, in that Abraham offered up Isaac; this was the proof that Abraham believed that Isaac would live on even if Abraham killed him. It testifies to what was written in Genesis 15, that Abraham believed the LORD and it was counted to him for righteousness. What was the word that Abraham believed? That Abraham's seed would be as the stars of heaven.

From the Lord's perspective, we know that He saw Abraham's faith invisibly the moment he believed. From our perspective, we call Abraham righteous in that we see the evidence of his faith in that he offered up his only begotten son.

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You left out the word "IF". It does not say Abraham was justified by his works.
Rom 4:2-3
2 If his good deeds had made him acceptable to God, he would have had something to boast about. But that was not God's way.
3 For the Scriptures tell us, "Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith."

ABRAHAM WAS COUNTED RIGHTEOUS BECAUSE OF HIS FAITH ONLY SINCE IT DOES NOT LIST ANYTHING ELSE

I see that Abraham's faith was shown in the fact that he left Ur as God asked him to (Genesis 15)

Rom 4:4-8
4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
David Celebrates the Same Truth 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin."
NKJV

You just can't get over the facts that James got it wrong. But I have.

You said ;;; But from our perspective, man looking at the life of Abraham, we do not see Abraham's faith except in the fact that he offered Isaac.

So we can't take god's word in Gensis 15 we must see it for ourselves in Genesis 22. BULL! I don't give a flip about what man sees. Man can not save anyone, even himself.

Don't you think we have wiped this horse long enough? You will never make me see that James and Paul were teaching the same gospel.

There was A gospel to the Jews and now after God has set the Jews aside TEMPORARILY people are saved by their faith in what JESUS did on the cross only. FAITH PLUS NOTHING

Good points, BoL. Anti-Catholics define "church", as in Catholic CHURCH, as a corporation run by a bunch of old bishops, with no divine attributes. They say "church" only in the derogatory sense, while we use the term "church" in the biblical sense. The separation of the hierarchy from the laity has been part of Protestant propaganda from the beginning, and the absurdity still goes on to this day.

Eph. 5:32- Paul calls the Church a “mystery.” This means that the significance of the Church as the kingdom of God in our midst cannot be understood by reason alone. Understanding the Church also requires faith. “Church” does not mean a building of believers. That is not a mystery. Non-Catholics often view church as mere community, but not the supernatural mystery of Christ physically present among us.
The Biblical Church - Scripture Catholic

H. Richard said:

It does not say Abraham was justified by his works.

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It does say so, in James (2:21-24).

Now are you going to admit that you are contending for the idea that all scripture isn't inspired of the Lord?

Because if that is true, we can't even trust in Paul's writings; and neither can we trust in the writings of the Old Testament.

H. Richard said:

Rom 4:4-6
4 When people work, their wages are not a gift, but something they have earned.
5 But pe

You left out the word "IF". It does not say Abraham was justified by his works.
Rom 4:2-3
2 If his good deeds had made him acceptable to God, he would have had something to boast about. But that was not God's way.
3 For the Scriptures tell us, "Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith."

ABRAHAM WAS COUNTED RIGHTEOUS BECAUSE OF HIS FAITH ONLY SINCE IT DOES NOT LIST ANYTHING ELSE

I see that Abraham's faith was shown in the fact that he left Ur as God asked him to (Genesis 15)

Rom 4:4-8
4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
David Celebrates the Same Truth 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin."
NKJV

You just can't get over the facts that James got it wrong. But I have.

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James got nothing wrong. You are using two different words interchangeably.
James 2:24 – compare the verse “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” to
Gal. 2:16 – “a man is not justified by works of the law,” and
Rom. 3:20,28 – “no human being will be justified in His sight by works of the law.”

James 2:24 appears to be inconsistent with Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28 until one realizes that the Word of God cannot contradict itself. This means that the “works” in James 2:24 are different from the “works of the law in Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28. James is referring to “good works” (e.g.,clothing the naked; giving food to the poor) and Paul is referring to the “Mosaic law” (which included both the legal, moral and ceremonial law) or any works which oblige God to give us payment.

Here is more proof: Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16 – Paul’s phrase for “works of the law” in the Greek is “ergon nomou” which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin.

James 2 does not use “ergon nomou.” He uses “ergois agathois.” Therefore, Paul’s “works of the law” and James’ “works” are entirely different types of works. Again, they could never contradict each other because the Scriptures are the inspired word of God.

As a result of this confusion over the two meanings of "works", anti-Catholics endlessly accuse Catholics of "works salvation", or "works righteousness", or Pelagianism, which has repeatedly been condemned by the historic Church.

You said ;;; But from our perspective, man looking at the life of Abraham, we do not see Abraham's faith except in the fact that he offered Isaac.

So we can't take god's word in Gensis 15 we must see it for ourselves in Genesis 22. BULL! I don't give a flip about what man sees. Man can not save anyone, even himself.

Don't you think we have wiped this horse long enough? You will never make me see that James and Paul were teaching the same gospel.

There was A gospel to the Jews and now after God has set the Jews aside TEMPORARILY people are saved by their faith in what JESUS did on the cross only. FAITH PLUS NOTHING

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Abraham was justified, but not instantly.
Gal. 3:17 – this “law” came 430 years after Abraham. So “works of law” here clearly refer to the Mosaic law, not “good works.”

Gen. 12:1-4 – Abram is justified here, as God promises to make his name great and bless the families of the earth through his seed. Abram is justified by his faith in God. Heb. 11:8-10 confirms Abraham’s justification occurred here, before Gen. 15:6 (later) by referring to Gen. 12,
not Gen. 15. Abraham’s justification increased over time because justification is not a one-time event, but an ongoing process of growing in holiness.

Gen. 14:19, 22-23 – Abram is also justified here, by being blessed by the priest-king Melchizedek. Melchizedek calls Abram blessed and Abram gives him a tenth of everything.

Gen. 15:6 – Abram is further justified here, as God promises him that his descendants will be as numerous as the stars. Because the Scripture says, “He believed the Lord, and He reckoned it to him as righteousness,” Protestants often say this was Abram’s initial justification, and cite Rom 4:2 to prove Abram was justified by his faith. Yes, it is true Abram was justified by his faith, but he was justified 25 years earlier in Gen. 12:1-4, as Heb. 11:8-10 proves.

Gen. 22:1-18 – Abraham is further justified here, this time by works, when he offered his son Isaac as a sacrifice to God.
James 2:21 proves this as James writes, “Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?” James then confirms this by writing, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness” (James 2:23). These verses prove that justification before God is an on-going process, not a one-time event of accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, and is accomplished by faith and works.
JUSTIFICATION - Scripture Catholic

A man is not even justified by doing good works such as giving to the poor. Except before man.

Before God, a man is justified by faith alone.

I can give $5 or even $5,000,000 to a poor man and this will not bring about in me the transformation of character that we call salvation. The only thing that will do that is faith in Jesus and what He did for me on the Cross, as I appropriate His shed blood to my sins and it cleanses me from all iniquity.

Now if I have thus been cleansed and transformed within, chances are I will give money to the poor. But I am not justified by that. I am justified by the blood of Christ which brought about the transformation. Before man, I may be justified by that work of giving to the poor, as he looks at my work and says, "Truly, that is the result of a living faith in Jesus Christ." But before God, I am only justified by my faith in what Christ did for me: I am transformed, and even justified, not by any work of righteousness which I have done, but by my faith in Jesus Christ; and I do good works because of the transformation.

H. Richard said:

No there are people around that make the same mistake as the Pharisees who thought they were above the law. Don't you think those Priests who molested children though it was their right because they are men of God, right? After all wren't they just binding?

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Hate speech. You, like the media, pretend the sex abuse crisis is ongoing. They were acting out of sick perversion, not some "right" you dreamed up. 80% of cases were with homosexual teens, for the 100th time. Teens are not children. If you really cared about children, you would rail against perverted public school teachers and Protestant ministers where the problem is ongoing. Nailing priests is more important to you. You don't care about the kids, just nailing priests, and that makes you a phony.
The Church has done, and is doing, far more to correct the problem than any institution on the planet. You just refuse to believe it. Why? Because it's a handy bat to beat Catholics with. You refuse to let go of your SADISM, a sexual perversion in itself. If you have a shred of wisdom, you would drop this topic.

justbyfaith said:

A man is not even justified by doing good works such as giving to the poor. Except before man.

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Chapter and verse please.
James 2:18 – to avoid the truth of the Catholic position that we are justified by both faith and works, you argue the justification that James is referring to in James 2 is “before men” and not “before God.” Scripture disproves your nonsense.

James 2:14 – James asks, “Can faith save him?” Salvation comes from God. This proves the justification James is referring to is before God, not men.

James 2:19 – also, James reminds us that even the demons believe and tremble. This refers to our relationship with God, not with men. Thus, our justification that requires works and not faith alone relates to our status before God, not men.

Before God, a man is justified by faith alone.

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Justified by faith, yes. But you cannot find a single verse where Paul says faith alone. Good works done apart from the grace of God (outside of faith) IS NOT GOOD WORKS, but you don't get it.

I can give $5 or even $5,000,000 to a poor man and this will not bring about in me the transformation of character that we call salvation. The only thing that will do that is faith in Jesus and what He did for me on the Cross, as I appropriate His shed blood to my sins and it cleanses me from all iniquity.

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It is by the grace of God to help a poor man in the first place. Your dichotomy is false. You still don't get it.

Now if I have thus been cleansed and transformed within, chances are I will give money to the poor. But I am not justified by that. I am justified by the blood of Christ which brought about the transformation. Before man, I may be justified by that work of giving to the poor, as he looks at my work and says, "Truly, that is the result of a living faith in Jesus Christ." But before God, I am only justified by my faith in what Christ did for me: I am transformed, and even justified, not by any work of righteousness which I have done, but by my faith in Jesus Christ; and I do good works because of the transformation.

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You dichotomize faith and good works. The Bible doesn't do that.

James 2:17,26 – James clearly teaches that faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. Works are a cause, not just an effect, of our justification because good works achieve and increase our justification before God. Scripture never says anything about “saving faith.” You cannot show us from the Scriptures tha upt “works” qualify the “faith” into saving faith. Instead, here and elsewhere, the Scriptures teach that justification is achieved only when “faith and works” act together. Scripture puts no qualifier on faith. Scripture also never says that faith “leads to works.” Faith is faith and works are works (James 2:18). They are distinct (mind and action), and yet must act together in order to receive God’s unmerited gift of justification.

James 2:24 – the phrase “faith alone” (the Greek “pisteos monon”) only occurs once in the Bible. “Man is justified by works and NOT faith alone.” Unlike what you assert, no where in Scripture does it say that man is justified or saved by “faith alone.” To the contrary, man is not justified by faith alone. In Catholic theology, a person is justified by faith and works acting together, which comes solely from God’s divine grace. (which you cannot understand) Faith alone never obtains the grace of justification. Nobody can churn up God's grace on their own. You infer an insult.

Heb. 11:6 – faith is indeed the minimum requirement without which we cannot please God. But this is just the beginning of the process leading toward justification. Faith alone does not justify a person. Justification is only achieved by faith and works, as we see below. Also, this gratuitous gift of faith from God also includes the grace of hope and love the moment the person is justified.

Separating hope and love from faith is a man made tradition. Love is an action, an act of the will. A work.

justbyfaith said:

It does say so, in James (2:21-24).

Now are you going to admit that you are contending for the idea that all scripture isn't inspired of the Lord?

Because if that is true, we can't even trust in Paul's writings; and neither can we trust in the writings of the Old Testament.

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What I wrote about the """""FACTS"""" in the book of James still stands. Since you wish to use the book of James in the grace church you are ignoring the """"FACT""".

The book of James was written to the Jews; not the Gentiles under grace and should not be used to place a burden of law keeping on those under grace.

But obviously you wish to do so. Shame on you.

epostle said:

But you cannot find a single verse where Paul says faith alone.

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Just like I do not have to find a verse that has the exact word "Trinity" in it to prove that the Bible teaches the Trinity, so I do not have to come up with a verse that has the exact words "faith alone" to prove that the Bible teaches that a man is justified by faith apart from works.

Rom 4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6, Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

epostle said:

Scripture also never says that faith “leads to works.”

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There is a work of faith and a labour of love in 1 Thessalonians 1:3. An obedience to the faith and an obedience of faith in Romans 1:5 (kjv) and Romans 16:26 (kjv).

epostle said:

God’s unmerited gift of justification.

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If works are involved you have just spoken an oxymoron.

epostle said:

Unlike what you assert, no where in Scripture does it say that man is justified or saved by “faith alone.”

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Eph 2:8, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9, Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Tit 3:4, But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Tit 3:5, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6, Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Tit 3:7, That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

epostle said:

In Catholic theology, a person is justified by faith and works acting together, which comes solely from God’s divine grace.

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Grace and works are mutually exclusive when it comes to salvation/election:

Rom 11:5, Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6, And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

H. Richard said:

What I wrote about the """""FACTS"""" in the book of James still stands. Since you wish to use the book of James in the grace church you are ignoring the """"FACT""".

The book of James was written to the Jews; not the Gentiles under grace and should not be used to place a burden of law keeping on those under grace.

But obviously you wish to do so. Shame on you.

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So, is the epistle of James inspired by the Holy Spirit or not?

If you are saying not, then shame on you.

epostle said:

The Church has done, and is doing, far more to correct the problem than any institution on the planet.

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I think that the best way to correct the problem would be for those priests to be born again.

It is a huge problem in the Catholic Church that people are allowed to be ministers who have not been regenerated by the Holy Spirit; they are given positions of authority but there is no spiritual power behind them.

"Trinity" is a primary doctrine that developed starting from the Apostles, scripture, the Councils of Nicae (which you reject), Ephesus, (which you reject), Chalcedon (which you reject) and others (which you reject). These councils, during the first 5 centuries, were responses to heresies (which you accept) and their verdicts on the Trinity are accepted by Protestants, Orthodox, and Catholics, but not accepted by made-in-America cults.
"Faith alone" was invented by Martin Luther. He ADDED the word "alone" to his private translation in Romans 3:28, and has been a man made Protestant tradition ever since. "Trinity" as a sound doctrine can be deduced from Scripture, "faith alone" as a doctrine, does not exist in Scripture, and was never taught by anyone until the 16th century. The absence of a theological term in scripture (Trinity) does not justify the absence of a man made tradition of faith alone. You are playing a stupid word game.

You keep repeating the same mistake over and over again.
Paul’s phrase for “works” in the Greek is “ergon nomou”, which means the Mosaic law.
James phrase for "works" in the Greek is “ergois agathois.” which means good works.

But you will ignore or deny this, and repeatedly use TWO DIFFERENT TERMS WITH DIFFERENT MEANINGS, interchangeably, to beef up your man made tradition.

I made a few edits to the original text from here.

As usual, H.Richard is unwilling or unable to understand the relationship of human free will to God’s grace. We believe we can cooperate with God’s grace in order to “merit.” Yet that very merit is itself completely an act of God’s grace. Here is some more relevant information to consider:

The Second Council of Orange (529 A.D.), accepted as dogma by the Catholic Church, dogmatically taught in its Canon 7:

If anyone asserts that we can, by our natural powers, think as we ought, or choose any good pertaining to the salvation of eternal life . . . without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit . . . he is misled by a heretical spirit . . . [goes on to cite John 15:5, 2 Cor 3:5]

Likewise, the ecumenical Council of Trent (1545-63): Chapter 5, Decree on Justification:

. . . Man . . . is not able, by his own free-will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight.

Canon I on Justification:

If anyone saith that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

The existence of a measure of human free will in order for man to cooperate with God’s grace does not reduce inevitably and necessarily to Semi-Pelagianism, as Luther, Calvin, and H.Richards wrongly charge. The Catholic view is a third way. Our “meritorious actions” are always necessarily preceded and caused and crowned and bathed in God’s enabling grace. But this doesn’t wipe out our cooperation, which is not intrinsically meritorious in the sense that it derives from us and not God . . . Second Orange again:

The reward given for good works is not won by reason of actions which precede grace, but grace, which is unmerited, precedes actions in order that they may be accomplished meritoriously.

Catholic theologian Ludwig Ott describes the Catholic view:

As God’s grace is the presupposition and foundation of supernatural good works, by which man merits eternal life, so salutary works are, at the same time gifts of God and meritorious acts of man. (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Rockford, Illinois: TAN Books, 1974 [orig. 1952], 264)

St. Augustine wrote:

What merit of man is there before grace by which he can achieve grace, as only grace works every one of our good merits in us, and as God, when He crowns our merits, crowns nothing else but His own gifts? (Ep. 194, 5, 19; in Ott, 265)

The Lord has made Himself a debtor, not by receiving, but by promising. Man cannot say to Him, “Give back what thou hast received” but only “Give what thou hast promised.” (Enarr. in Ps 83, 16; in Ott, 267)

The concept of merit and its corollary reward is well-supported in Scripture (Mt 5:12; 19:17, 21, 29; 25:21; 25:34 ff.; Lk 6:38; Rom 2:6; 1 Cor 3:8; 9:17; Col 3:24; Heb 6:10; 10:35; 11:6; 2 Tim 4:8; Eph 6:8).

So, with that background, let’s look at the Premm quote (Dogmatic Theology for the Laity, Rev. Matthias Premm, Rockford, Illinois: TAN Books and Publishers, 1977 [orig. 1967, by the Society of St. Paul] in broad context (pp. 261-264 — emphasis in original — , with McCarthy’s (out of context) citations bracketed and in red):


. . . . The Catholic Church was right in maintaining against Luther, at the Council of Trent, that heaven is merited by our good works, because this is the clear teaching of revelation. “We have shown that according to Holy Scripture the Christian can actually merit heaven for himself by his good works. But we must realize that these works have to be performed in the state of grace and with a good intention . . .

Jesus himself tells his disciples: ‘I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me (by the state of grace), and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit (for heaven). If a man does not abide in me (by mortal sin) . . . he can do nothing’ – he can bear no fruit for heaven; just as the branch that is cut off from the vine cannot produce any grapes.

By sanctifying grace we are children of God. Only by sanctifying grace do we have a right to heaven as our heritage. By purely natural good acts, such as even the sinner can perform, heaven cannot be merited as a reward; we must be in the state of grace, a child of God. Only after human nature has been united to God by grace and raised up above it’s own nature can good acts, which proceed from this supernaturally elevated nature, be directed towards the possession of God in the hereafter. Only in this way can we merit the vision of God in heaven, since it completely surpasses the powers of our pure human nature.

By sanctifying grace we become living members of the mystical body of Christ, one with Christ our Head. Thus our acts become acts of Christ, who, in an incomprehensible way, is living and working in [p. 264] his members. Through this intimate union with Christ, our Mediator before the Father, we merit the happiness of heaven.

Finally, sanctifying grace makes us temples of the Holy Spirit, who compels us to good works (Rom 8:14). St. Francis de Sales writes that the Holy Spirit performs good works in us with such consummate skill that the works belong more to him than to us. He works with us and we work with him. In this activity we use our free will. By our free will we submit all our human activity to the grace and will of God. By this act of reverence and worship, our good acts redound to the glory of God. Our will could also take a stand against God’s will, and commit sin...

This is, therefore, apparently deliberate misrepresentation on McCarthy’s part, and that is a serious sin — a violation of the Ten Commandments and even basic pagan and secular ethical precepts. Whatever McCarthy or other anti-Catholics think of our theology, their own Christian tradition (as well as Jesus Himself) condemn them for slander and lying, whether we are Christian “brothers” or not, in their thinking. As we indeed are their brothers in Christ, their sin is all the greater. McCarthy’s polemical anti-Catholic video has also been clearly shown by Catholic apologetics magazine This Rock to be slanderous and grossly inaccurate. Let us hope and pray that he will repent, for his sake, and for the sake of the thousands he is leading astray.

justbyfaith said:

So, is the epistle of James inspired by the Holy Spirit or not?

If you are saying not, then shame on you.

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I have never said that. You have. I have said """IT IS NOT WRITTEN TO THE GENTILES UNDER GRACE AND SHOULD NOT BE USED IN THE GOSPEL OF GRACE AND THE GRACE CHURCH OF HIS BODY.

If you say it is written to the Gentile grace church then it is you that are saying the Holy Spirit got it wrong in James 1:1.

I have said that since it is written to the Jews who were under the law it is for the Jews only.

Sorry but I am getting tired of repeating myself to someone who has such a short memory.

You will continue to say it is for the Gentiles too and lay a burden of works to prove their faith on the children of God. Shame on you.

H. Richard said:

I have never said that. You have. I have said """IT IS NOT WRITTEN TO THE GENTILES UNDER GRACE AND SHOULD NOT BE USED IN THE GOSPEL OF GRACE AND THE GRACE CHURCH OF HIS BODY.

If you say it is written to the Gentile grace church then it is you that are saying the Holy Spirit got it wrong in James 1:1.

I have said that since it is written to the Jews who were under the law it is for the Jews only.

Sorry but I am getting tired of repeating myself to someone who has such a short memory.

You will continue to say it is for the Gentiles too and lay a burden of works to prove their faith on the children of God. Shame on you.

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Why does God have a different gospel for Jews as for Gentiles?

Is there not one gospel?

If James preached a different gospel than Paul, then watch out if that gospel ever gets preached to a Gentile! The person preaching that gospel would be accursed according to Galatians 1:6-9.

The epistle of James is in the word of God; it is holy scripture. As such, it is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Also, you said:

You will continue to say it is for the Gentiles too and lay a burden of works to prove their faith on the children of God.

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Are you saying that Jewish people are not the children of God? Why is saying James is for Gentiles laying a burden of works on the children of God but saying it is for Jews is not doing the same thing?

justbyfaith said:

Again, I didn't accuse you, but I asked you a question. "Are you attempting to contend for the idea that all scripture is not inspired of the Lord?"

If you are attempting to contend for the idea that all scripture isn't inspired of the Lord, then I discount your arguments outright.

But if you will agree that all scripture is indeed inspired of the Lord, then we can go from there.

Which one is it?

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The Koran is considered scripture, was it inspired by God ????

mjrhealth said:

The Koran is considered scripture, was it inspired by God ????

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It is not considered by most Bible-believers (Christians) to be holy scripture.

The fact that its fruit is most often terrorism is the only evidence that I need to be able to discount it as holy scripture.

justbyfaith said:

Why does God have a different gospel for Jews as for Gentiles?

Is there not one gospel?

If James preached a different gospel than Paul, then watch out if that gospel ever gets preached to a Gentile! The person preaching that gospel would be accursed according to Galatians 1:6-9.

The epistle of James is in the word of God; it is holy scripture. As such, it is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Also, you said:



Are you saying that Jewish people are not the children of God? Why is saying James is for Gentiles laying a burden of works on the children of God but saying it is for Jews is not doing the same thing?

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If I told you you will not hear it. God did not continue the religion that killed His Son. He set the Jews aside, including their religion, and went to the Gentiles with a gospel of grace. Why did God have the Temple destroyed if the Jews religion was to continue? The gospel of grace is for all of mankind including the Jews. Did you not see Peter's reluctance to go to a Gentile when he spoke to Cornelius. Did you not read about Peter's vision where God told him what He has cleansed let no man call unclean.

When Jesus shed His blood on the cross it paid for the sins of all the world. Every sin that man has and will commit was paid for. But just as the Jews rejected Jesus as their king ,today a person refusing to believe that what Jesus did on the cross pays for their sins have rejected Jesus' payment and their sins remain.

Your refusal to see that while Jesus was on this earth offering the Jews their promised kingdom, He and the 12 never rescinded the Law of Moses.

But only a blind person can not see that Paul said WE ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW OF MOSES. This can be seen in Acts 21;20. Jew's religion was a covenant gospel which included the Law of Moses for the Jews only and now there is a gospel of grace for all of mankind. As long as you can't see this you will never be under grace because you will refuse to see it.

I bet you did not understand that when the Jews were being good God called them His people but when they turned away to idols He called them your people when talking to a man.

I do wish that people would study the scriptures as a history of God's dealing with the Jews and when they refused Him He did not turn to the world with the same failed ideas of religion.