WHY ARE MANY OF US STILL HERE?

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Jay Ross

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Actually we all were dead already from birth to our natural mother. Adam and Eve died when they disobeyed God. Thus all of their offspring were born dead. Dead people cannot bear live children. Jesus confirms what people are without what he brought:

"And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead." Matt 8:21-22


But then this is why Jesus came to men:

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10

Would not then a second death be that which a born again person dies when after receiving the Life which Jesus is then choose to cast it away?

When they return to death that would be the 2nd time for them.

Actually, really, your explanation is based on what? There is a time for all unrighteous to die the second death, and also to be judged righteous to Gain eternal life.

Matthew 10:26-33: - Have No Fear

26 "So have no fear of them, I for nothing is covered that will not be revealed or hidden that will not be known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, say in the light, and what you hear whispered, proclaim on J the housetops. 28 And K do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him L who can destroy both soul and body in hell. * 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? * And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. 30 But M even the hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows. 32 O So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, 33 but P whoever denies me before men, Q I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

Notes: -
I Mark 4:22; Luke 8:17; [1 Tim 5:25]; For ver. 26-33, see Luke 12:2-9
J See Luke 5:19
K Isa 8:12,13; 51:12,13; Jer 1:8; 1 Peter 3:14
L James 4:12
* Greek Gehenna
* Greek assarion, Roman copper coin (Latin quadrans) worth about 1/16 of a denarius (which was a day's wage for a laborer)
M See 1 Sam 14:45
N ch. 6:26; 12:12
O [Rom 10:9,10; Heb 10:35; Rev 3:5]
P 2 Tim 2:12; 2 Peter 2:1; 1 John 2:23; [Mark 8:38]
Q ch. 7:23; 25:12; Luke 13:25

The killing of the soul is to be much feared as this is the second death.

However, even those who are candidates for the second death can be redeemed by God if they repent before Him their sins and will live.

Since the fall, all who have been born are candidates for the second death, but if we turn to God and repent of our individual sins against God then we will receive the gift of life by living by faith believing His promises to us.

Shalom

PS: - Consider carefully what you meant when you said that we were born dead but physically had a living soul.
 

Lady Crosstalk

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well I guess Hegel would not be born for another 2100 years at least, sure, but now I'm curious if you could state any diff simply, say in a sentence or two, ty.

Hmm. I always got that impression too, but now I wonder. An excerpt from my current study, comment if you like,
"
A Tale of Two Sisters

Biblical Israel was never a gene pool but always a school of thought. It was never a local effort but always a global one. Grafted on the Canaanite schools of Salem (Genesis 14:18) and Mamre (13:18), and having absorbed all the wealth and women of Shechem (34:29) it was formed from tributaries ranging from Babylon (Abraham, Sarah), Assyria (Haran) to Egypt (Moses; also see Exodus 12:35-36) and from Midian in Arabia(Jethro) to Jericho (Rahab), Moab (Ruth), the Hittites (Uriah and Bathsheba) and a further influx of people from all over: 32,000 Midianite virgins (Numbers 31:18 and 31:35), a certain "mixed multitude" (Exodus 12:38) and countless others (Deuteronomy 20:14, Exodus 20:10). Hence the Lord could say of Israel: "Your origin and your birth are from the land of the Canaanite, your father was an Amorite and your mother a Hittite" (Ezekiel 16:3). Even Judah's international character lasted well until Roman times (Acts 2:9-11, 8:27)..."
The amazing name Mary: meaning and etymology


Having known a number of Jewish folk who originated from many places, I would say that the assessment is correct, it is NOT a gene pool as much as it is a way of thinking which includes a deliberate way of loving and raising children to excel. While I would suggest that the Israelite/Jewish culture is something of a product of the Middle Eastern peoples, it is more than that. Yahweh singled them out, adopted them and reared them--He says so in the Bible. He also says that it wasn't any particular merit that they had apart from Him and His love. He chose Israel to be His Wife (just as He chose the Church to be His Son's Bride). True Judaism as well as true Christianity is not a religion (even though humans, with their religious inclinations, try to make it so). It is a relationship that is nurtured by God Himself. But He is gentle and He never forces the relationship on anyone. He waits for us to reach out to Him--the way that any good Father refrains from imposing a relationship on his child.
 

amadeus

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Actually, really, your explanation is based on what?
It was simply a thought that came to me a long time ago as I was reading the scriptures. I have heard explanations as to why it was wrong before, but no really satisfactory explanation as to what is really right. Clue me in if you can. I am not arguing but asking. Thanks for your consideration...

There is a time for all unrighteous to die the second death, and also to be judged righteous to Gain eternal life.
This I would guess is what needs clarification... the just versus the unjust:

"And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust." Acts 24:15

Are the unjust then the unrighteous of which you speak? Why should the unjust or the unrighteous be resurrected at all? Does not to resurrect meant to bring to life? How can anyone who has not believed in Jesus ever be brought to Life?

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" John 11:25-16


Would it not follow that any who failed to believe or ceased to believe in Jesus would have NO resurrection at all?

Matthew 10:26-33: - Have No Fear

26 "So have no fear of them, I for nothing is covered that will not be revealed or hidden that will not be known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, say in the light, and what you hear whispered, proclaim on J the housetops. 28 And K do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him L who can destroy both soul and body in hell. * 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? * And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. 30 But M even the hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows. 32 O So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, 33 but P whoever denies me before men, Q I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

Notes: -
I Mark 4:22; Luke 8:17; [1 Tim 5:25]; For ver. 26-33, see Luke 12:2-9
J See Luke 5:19
K Isa 8:12,13; 51:12,13; Jer 1:8; 1 Peter 3:14
L James 4:12
* Greek Gehenna
* Greek assarion, Roman copper coin (Latin quadrans) worth about 1/16 of a denarius (which was a day's wage for a laborer)
M See 1 Sam 14:45
N ch. 6:26; 12:12
O [Rom 10:9,10; Heb 10:35; Rev 3:5]
P 2 Tim 2:12; 2 Peter 2:1; 1 John 2:23; [Mark 8:38]
Q ch. 7:23; 25:12; Luke 13:25

The killing of the soul is to be much feared as this is the second death.

"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit." I Cor 15:45

The first man Adam was a living soul from the first but when he disobeyed God what happened to him? Was he not then a walking dead man?

Then Jesus, the last Adam, brought the quickening so that the dead could live. But not every man has partaken of Jesus so as to Live. The ones who have not remain in death and in condemnation, do they not?

However, even those who are candidates for the second death can be redeemed by God if they repent before Him their sins and will live.

Since the fall, all who have been born are candidates for the second death, but if we turn to God and repent of our individual sins against God then we will receive the gift of life by living by faith believing His promises to us.

Shalom
Why candidates for death and not already dead until and if they see the Light of Jesus and pursue it? They are candidates it would seem rather for real Life [Jesus] rather than for death. They are already dead, are they not? They may think they have life, but Jesus did not see it that way as I understand his words here:

"And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead." Matt 8:21-2

PS: - Consider carefully what you meant when you said that we were born dead but physically had a living soul.
Did I say that?

What we had prior to taking hold of it was a hope for that more abundant Life that Jesus made available to those who would believe in him. What we would and what many unbelievers do call life is in the eyes of God, I believe, death... but not without hope while a person still has time left to him and he is not a reprobate:

"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." John 1:9
 

Phoneman777

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The Letter of the Law is gone. it's a new, totally different due to the Grace that is in one who is Born Again in the Holy Spirit, as one is with Jesus Christ.
If we love Jesus we do his will.
To say the letter of the law is gone begs the question: is it possible for a man to keep the spirit of the law and not lust after the unmarried woman with which he's engaging in full blown sexual intercourse? Of course not. If we're keeping the spirit of the law, we're by default keeping the letter, cause if we're not looking in lust, we by default will be keeping our pants on.
 

Phoneman777

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You have a prejudice and a problem, and you have even given it a name. Which you call anyone who does not see things as you do. But your vision is skewed by prejudice, which is hatred.
You liberal aka progressives aka communists just love throwing the "h" word around, don't you? BTW, I'm still waiting for an answer to my two questions:
Does Satan force us to sin?
Does Satan barricade the "way of escape" out of temptation?
Don't expect a crowd to cheer you on in your folly.
I expect that the courts of heaven are cheering when I point out that doctrine of devils you preach: that the saved are free to break the Ten Commandments which Jesus wrote with His own finger in stone.
As for the error that you are acting out...it is the same as those who returned to the law after being rescued from it.
You'd be correct if my motivation was to obtain salvation by the law - the same law which James says declares you a SINNER if you kill or commit adultery.
Paul preached against such a position, saying that to do such, is to crucify Christ again, as if He never went to the cross, as if He needs us to do what He could not accomplish, instead of just receiving the gift.
If you'd read all the Bible and not just the parts you like, you'd come to understand that Paul condemns obedience ot the law as a mean to obtain salvation and enjoins to us obedience to the law as the evidence that the saved love our Savior.
But your position gives life to that old man that should have died, and a job that should have been completed in Christ. Such is unbelief. But I am through with entertaining you in your hate-based prejudice. You will have to learn the hard way.
No, my position gives light to a dark Christian world filled with likes of you who are called "least" in the kingdom of heaven for your doctrine of devils which says we may by the dead faith of disobedience obtain that which can only be obtained by living faith: eternal life.
 
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Jay Ross

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It was simply a thought that came to me a long time ago as I was reading the scriptures. I have heard explanations as to why it was wrong before, but no really satisfactory explanation as to what is really right. Clue me in if you can. I am not arguing but asking. Thanks for your consideration...


This I would guess is what needs clarification... the just versus the unjust:

"And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust." Acts 24:15

Are the unjust then the unrighteous of which you speak? Why should the unjust or the unrighteous be resurrected at all? Does not to resurrect meant to bring to life? How can anyone who has not believed in Jesus ever be brought to Life?

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" John 11:25-16


Would it not follow that any who failed to believe or ceased to believe in Jesus would have NO resurrection at all?



"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit." I Cor 15:45

The first man Adam was a living soul from the first but when he disobeyed God what happened to him? Was he not then a walking dead man?

Then Jesus, the last Adam, brought the quickening so that the dead could live. But not every man has partaken of Jesus so as to Live. The ones who have not remain in death and in condemnation, do they not?


Why candidates for death and not already dead until and if they see the Light of Jesus and pursue it? They are candidates it would seem rather for real Life [Jesus] rather than for death. They are already dead, are they not? They may think they have life, but Jesus did not see it that way as I understand his words here:

"And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead." Matt 8:21-2



Did I say that?

What we had prior to taking hold of it was a hope for that more abundant Life that Jesus made available to those who would believe in him. What we would and what many unbelievers do call life is in the eyes of God, I believe, death... but not without hope while a person still has time left to him and he is not a reprobate:

"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." John 1:9

You have asked a number of great question on the election of the Saints/righteous/just.

We are all at this present time candidates to die a physical death. Adam was destined to die a physical death after God created him but not all of the people who die a physical death will be a candidate for the second death, only those who are unrighteous/unjust. the righteous/just saints will be granted, at the time of the great judgement, everlasting life, and entry into God's everlasting Kingdom.

Genesis 6:3: –– 3 And the Lord said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man for a very long period of time that vanishes in the distance, but he is indeed flesh; and now his days shall be one hundred and twenty years." {My understanding of the context of the source text.}

Daniel 12:2: – 2 And all of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
{My understanding of the context of the source text.}​
Revelation 20:11-15: –– The Great White Throne Judgment

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.​
Our understanding comes down to how we perceive the source texts of the scriptures should be translated into our common language. What we have to decide is, did the scholars, charged with the various translations, provide an understanding that reflected God and His purposes in the processes of reconciliation of man with God.

Shalom
 
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Reggie Belafonte

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To say the letter of the law is gone begs the question: is it possible for a man to keep the spirit of the law and not lust after the unmarried woman with which he's engaging in full blown sexual intercourse? Of course not. If we're keeping the spirit of the law, we're by default keeping the letter, cause if we're not looking in lust, we by default will be keeping our pants on.
It's the Letter of the Law that's gone, the Law is still there but it's not the Letter of the law now under Grace.
The letter of the Law is like this, you were caught speeding 1 MPH over and the Law is death penalty, if you go over the limit set by 1 MPH, that's how the Letter of the Law works, just like that.
Or ok you are a homosexual and bingo you are found out to be that, well your dead, there is no if or but about such as the Letter of the Law is just that, it convicts. Look it's just like a contract and there are no if or but about such, the Law does not care that you lost or had to endure to met that contract at all.

Jesus brought reality into the Law of a human dimension, not just blind ignorance of letter of the Law that rejects humans totally making them like robots.

No Born again Christian would lust after anyone, in fact I don't remember lusting after anyone my whole life, sure I admired but not Lusted after anyone.
 

bbyrd009

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Unless you're one of the lucky ones who'll be born twice but alive when Jesus comes, well hey!
one of the lucky ones, hmm. Well, best of luck to you then, ok Pm. Not too many Pms left I guess, huh? My sis runs a little phone co in the Roaring Fork valley, phones for McMansions and the resorts. They spent 20 years in Mitel, but I think they go Panasonic now. You mostly do the same now, hotels and businesses?
 

bbyrd009

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We are all at this present time candidates to die a physical death. Adam was destined to die a physical death after God created him but not all of the people who die a physical death with be a candidate for the second death, only those who are unrighteous/unjust. the righteous/just saints will be granted, at the time of the great judgement, everlasting life, and entry into God's everlasting Kingdom
Sure seems logical, huh, but I urge you to seek a better understanding there Mr Ross; maybe one you aren't quite so sure of. It is given for a man to live once
[
QUOTE="Jay Ross, post: 515446, member: 4077"]Our understanding comes down to how we perceive the source texts of the scriptures should be translated into our common language. What we have to decide is, did the scholars, charged with the various translations, provide an understanding that reflected God and His purposes in the processes of reconciliation of man with God.[/QUOTE]

again, so logical it seems indisputable, huh? And again, most likely not, and I guess I'm doing this wrong again but you might examine "how we perceive" up there maybe, or "an understanding that reflected God," which we could go over the vv on scribes or God's ways are not our ways I guess maybe, and I don't mean to completely discount that either, that scenario up there, it def has some bearing on those reading in their original "common language," but, um...possibly does not recognize that we need to speak in tongues? Ya, maybe.

Anyway, you are an earnest student of Rhema seems to me, surely more knowledgeable than me about It, so I'd urge you to go find the dialectic in which It was written, since you already know It was intentionally written in code right, hidden from the wise, and revealed to little children is just one of the clues I guess
 
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bbyrd009

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Would not then a second death be that which a born again person dies when after receiving the Life which Jesus is then choose to cast it away?

When they return to death that would be the 2nd time for them.
hmm, an interesting interp, but seems to me that the ones about "ppl who are really saved cannot be lost" would argue against?
 

bbyrd009

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amadeus

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hmm, an interesting interp, but seems to me that the ones about "ppl who are really saved cannot be lost" would argue against?
Yes, even some that frequently stand on my side on other things will at least refrain from comment when and if it comes up against the OSAS of which they are so certain.

I don't claim to be right on this point of the 2nd death, but no one has given me a response showing something that fits better considering my own position on so many things. I have asked another person about this question on this thread but it may take me some time to respond to the answer he @Jay Ross has given on it. Maybe God will help me with it.

I do have trouble even conversing correctly with some people because we really speak a different language even though we have English as a common language. Does that makes sense?

Consider for example what people mean by devil, satan, hell, heaven, death, life, holy ghost and an almost innumerable quantity of others. They speak as if each of these was absolutely established... and maybe to them they are. This often has me banging my head against a brick wall. To answer a simple question on one point I may have to go through a dozen explanations on peripheral points each one would or could change the whole meaning of my response.

So many have done exactly, as I see it, what so many Jews had done after 400 some years without a prophet...
 
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ScottA

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You liberal aka progressives aka communists just love throwing the "h" word around, don't you? BTW, I'm still waiting for an answer to my two questions:
Does Satan force us to sin?
Does Satan barricade the "way of escape" out of temptation?
I expect that the courts of heaven are cheering when I point out that doctrine of devils you preach: that the saved are free to break the Ten Commandments which Jesus wrote with His own finger in stone.
You'd be correct if my motivation was to obtain salvation by the law - the same law which James says declares you a SINNER if you kill or commit adultery. If you'd read all the Bible and not just the parts you like, you'd come to understand that Paul condemns obedience ot the law as a mean to obtain salvation and enjoins to us obedience to the law as the evidence that the saved love our Savior. No, my position gives light to a dark Christian world filled with likes of you who are called "least" in the kingdom of heaven for your doctrine of devils which says we may by the dead faith of disobedience obtain that which can only be obtained by living faith: eternal life.
Your hatred and name-calling leaves you without.
 

bbyrd009

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Yes, even some that frequently stand on my side on other things will at least refrain from comment when and if it comes up against the OSAS of which they are so certain.
ah, hadn't even considered those who testify of themselves as "saved" tbh
I don't claim to be right on this point of the 2nd death, but no one has given me a response showing something that fits better considering my own position on so many things. I have asked another person about this question on this thread but it may take me some time to respond to the answer he @Jay Ross has given on it. Maybe God will help me with it.
well, depending upon what def of "saved" you were using there I likely agree with you, and I read Mr Ross' and it seems to me you are both saying essentially the same thing prolly, just that we all have our own defs of the terms, as you say
 
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amadeus

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ah, hadn't even considered those who testify of themselves as "saved" tbh
And in many cases I would hazard to guess that they are not "saved", but again that is dependent upon what is meant by "saved". For me it is a progressive thing which can be terminated at any time by the saved person simply opting out.

well, depending upon what def of "saved" you were using there I likely agree with you, and I read Mr Ross' and it seems to me you are both saying essentially the same thing prolly, just that we all have our own defs of the terms, as you say
I hope you are correct about Mr Ross. I don't like always disagreeing with more and more people. I guess I could take the easier road of going with the majority, but what would my reward be for that?
 
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bbyrd009

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And in many cases I would hazard to guess that they are not "saved", but again that is dependent upon what is meant by "saved". For me it is a progressive thing which can be terminated at any time by the saved person simply opting out.
in that case I would ask you when you imagine any of those that were "saved" in Watch Heal Online Free | Putlocker would choose to opt out?
by which I don't mean that's the only frame, but sure strikes me as a better one

of course someone will say that they are not "saved" bc they did not undergo the ritual that we are fam with that has become the Written Rule for Getting Saved now, but really so what, if "we" are dying of cancer and dementia?
 

Lady Crosstalk

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Oh, sorry, you wanted to know what I thought was the difference between classical dialectics and Hegelian dialectics. Classical dialectics is generally thought to have been begun by Socrates and expanded upon by Plato. Up till that point, Greek philosophers were more preoccupied with thinking about "beauty" and were somewhat of the opinion that "truth" did not exist apart from beauty. They sought to "discover" truth as part of the search for beauty. Socrates, on the other hand, believed that truth could be found from analyzing ideas via the use of logic. He believed that a proper new goal of philosophy was the quest for morality. Discovering the truth would lead one to what was virtuous and ethical. He formulated dialectics where two opposing ideas were argued by real or imagined opponents as a companion to logical analysis.

Socrates demonstrated that a series of questions could be asked and the answers, it was hoped, would result in truth--truth for its own sake rather than as a subset of the search for beauty (aesthetics). (As Christians, we recognize that Jesus, Himself, often used a series of questions to prompt His hearers to allow God's Spirit to lead them to discover the "truth that will set you free"). Socratic methodology was highly regarded by subsequent philosophers.

Athens was a fledgling "democracy" during the times of Socrates. He would sometimes criticize the idea of democratic government, because he felt it could be as unstable as the whims of the people. He determined that, if the people were irrational or evil, injustices would occur and argued for just law as the basis for governing (as well as equal justice for individuals) --not the will of the people. This would be the essential difference between a republic and a democracy.

Socrates got himself in trouble with the governing authorities in Athens, for refusing, in his role as judge, to order the arrest and execution of a man named Leon, who had run afoul of the authorities. In turn, the authorities whipped up a demand from the people that Leon be arrested and executed. Socrates would not participate, believing the whole affair to be a miscarriage of justice. He was subsequently ordered executed himself for defying the political establishment, who had again whipped up support, among the people, for the execution of Socrates. The main accusation against Socrates was that he was "irreligious" for "not worshiping the pagan gods" of Athens. The moral of the story is that justice and equality are impossible in a democracy, when the people are easily manipulated through a lack of an accurate presentation of the facts (establishing facts is a main pursuit of a well-functioning justice system), or are irrational and evil themselves. In the Bible, God warns repeatedly of the evildoers who would pervert justice--they would punish the innocent and allow the guilty to go free. God says He detests those injustices.

Jumping forward to Hegel, the student of philosophy discovers that most of Hegel's work is exceedingly dry, boring and sometimes unintelligible. He goes on and on about the World Spirit and some of those ideas are used in silly New Age philosophy. Hegel's one solid contribution was the Hegelian dialectic where a thesis is stated by one side in the debate, the antithesis is argued by the other side of the debate, and often, a synthesis of both ideas is the outcome. Arriving at "truth" is really not a consideration because Hegel believed that it was relative to one's perception and that, in turn, was controlled by a variety of influences.

Marxist thinkers took Hegel's observations and methodology one step further when they determined that the use of Hegelian dialectic would make possible the political movement of the masses over time--through the use of propaganda. Propaganda would be distributed through a controlled mass media and result in the bland acceptance, by the masses, of the manipulated "reality". As such, Marxian dialectics (which is only kept at bay by a free and independent media) is a far cry from Socrates original purpose for dialectics. Much of modern higher "education" is deeply Marxist because those who are interested in promoting socialism/communism control the narrative of the textbooks and the thoughts of professors who have been well-indoctrinated by Marxism. It should be remembered by the academics (if they are able to think accurately--a dubious proposition) that all Marxist governments (in Russia, China, Cambodia, eastern Europe, North Vietnam, Cuba and Venezuela under Maduro) have been quite genocidal toward their own citizenry. In such a failed state, one never knows when one will run afoul of the wrong people and end up in the gulag (or worse).
 
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