When to look for the rapture of the church

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

n2thelight

Well-Known Member
Dec 24, 2006
4,052
787
113
60
Atlanta,Ga
Matthew 24 has a strong Jewish background.

So you like most others who believe in a rapture say Matthew 24 was written to the Jew's if you don't mind will you all help me and let me know what other books of the Bible are written to them and not us?

And what about Mark 13 as the end of the chapter reads

Mark 13:37 "And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch."

Who is the all?
 
  • Like
Reactions: bbyrd009

Trekson

Well-Known Member
Jul 24, 2012
2,084
218
63
67
Kentucky
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Wait...Revelation 20:3 says after these 1,000 have elapsed, Satan will be released for a short time. To do what exactly? If the amillennial view is correct, his being released for a short time is useless as the judgment of all mankind has taken place. So, I think amillenialism is not correct, either

Don't most HP have an amillennium belief? If all prophecy has been fulfilled and Christ has already returned, what's left? Regarding premil, there are four within that system, have you investigated them all? pre-trib, prewrath, midtrib and post trib. Personally, I'm pre-wrath and I believe that and post-trib to be the closest to what the bible teaches. The early church fathers had what I would call a post-persecutuion belief which is basically prewrath w/ a different name. Ignoring pretrib for a moment, what else is it that turns you off from the premil interpretation?
 

SovereignGrace

Certified Flunky
Feb 15, 2019
1,910
1,612
113
Crum, WVa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Don't most HP have an amillennium belief? If all prophecy has been fulfilled and Christ has already returned, what's left? Regarding premil, there are four within that system, have you investigated them all? pre-trib, prewrath, midtrib and post trib. Personally, I'm pre-wrath and I believe that and post-trib to be the closest to what the bible teaches. The early church fathers had what I would call a post-persecutuion belief which is basically prewrath w/ a different name. Ignoring pretrib for a moment, what else is it that turns you off from the premil interpretation?
No to the amillennium belief. They are post-trib. Are you thinking of Preterism?

What is historic premillennialism?

This sums up my HP beliefs pretty well. And why I can’t see DP as being tenable.
 

SovereignGrace

Certified Flunky
Feb 15, 2019
1,910
1,612
113
Crum, WVa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Don't most HP have an amillennium belief? If all prophecy has been fulfilled and Christ has already returned, what's left? Regarding premil, there are four within that system, have you investigated them all? pre-trib, prewrath, midtrib and post trib. Personally, I'm pre-wrath and I believe that and post-trib to be the closest to what the bible teaches. The early church fathers had what I would call a post-persecutuion belief which is basically prewrath w/ a different name. Ignoring pretrib for a moment, what else is it that turns you off from the premil interpretation?
Would the pre-wrath view fall into the mid-trib camp?
 

Trekson

Well-Known Member
Jul 24, 2012
2,084
218
63
67
Kentucky
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No to the amillennium belief. They are post-trib. Are you thinking of Preterism?

What is historic premillennialism?

This sums up my HP beliefs pretty well. And why I can’t see DP as being tenable

Well, my bad, I was thinking HP as Historic Preterism. I don't think I've ever heard of historic premillennialism before and I've been doing this for 30 yrs. I consider myself a quasi-dispensationalist but I most certainly see the church in the OT but not using anything promised to Israel as symbolic for the church. We have to recognize that many of the spiritual promises were fulfilled with Christ and the early church as they were predominantly Jewish. That there are two dispensations in the bible is undeniable. The dispensation of law and the dispensation of grace but much of the law is a type for Christ's finished work. I do not think that Daniel's 70th week reverts backl to the OT dispensation, nor do I think it is a third for Israel alone. Typical prewrath is placed between mid-trib and post-trib but God showed me something so I personally believe it occurs between the pre-trib and mid-trib viewpoints.
 

SovereignGrace

Certified Flunky
Feb 15, 2019
1,910
1,612
113
Crum, WVa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well, my bad, I was thinking HP as Historic Preterism. I don't think I've ever heard of historic premillennialism before and I've been doing this for 30 yrs. I consider myself a quasi-dispensationalist but I most certainly see the church in the OT but not using anything promised to Israel as symbolic for the church. We have to recognize that many of the spiritual promises were fulfilled with Christ and the early church as they were predominantly Jewish. That there are two dispensations in the bible is undeniable. The dispensation of law and the dispensation of grace but much of the law is a type for Christ's finished work. I do not think that Daniel's 70th week reverts backl to the OT dispensation, nor do I think it is a third for Israel alone. Typical prewrath is placed between mid-trib and post-trib but God showed me something so I personally believe it occurs between the pre-trib and mid-trib viewpoints.
Another name for Historic Premillennialism is Chiliasm.
 

SovereignGrace

Certified Flunky
Feb 15, 2019
1,910
1,612
113
Crum, WVa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well, my bad, I was thinking HP as Historic Preterism. I don't think I've ever heard of historic premillennialism before and I've been doing this for 30 yrs. I consider myself a quasi-dispensationalist but I most certainly see the church in the OT but not using anything promised to Israel as symbolic for the church. We have to recognize that many of the spiritual promises were fulfilled with Christ and the early church as they were predominantly Jewish. That there are two dispensations in the bible is undeniable. The dispensation of law and the dispensation of grace but much of the law is a type for Christ's finished work. I do not think that Daniel's 70th week reverts backl to the OT dispensation, nor do I think it is a third for Israel alone. Typical prewrath is placed between mid-trib and post-trib but God showed me something so I personally believe it occurs between the pre-trib and mid-trib viewpoints.
Where I part ways with dispensationalism is the pre-trib rapture and the separation of Israel(Jews) and the church. Both are one in Christ. Yes, I see a fulfillment of the engrafting of the Jews and then God dealing with the Jews. However, I don’t think that means they are separate entities, but one ppl in Christ.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Naomi25

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,996
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Where I part ways with dispensationalism is the pre-trib rapture and the separation of Israel(Jews) and the church. Both are one in Christ
1. The necessity of a pre-tribulation rapture is shown in 2 Thess 2. The Antichrist cannot take control unless the divine Restrainer (the Holy Spirit) is taken out of the way. And that can only happen when the Church and the Holy Spirit are taken up to Heaven. The Tribulation and the reign of the Antichrist are simultaneous, corresponding to the first half (3 1/2 years) of Daniel's 70th week.

2. Paul makes it crystal clear in Romans 11 that when the fulness of the Gentiles (within the church) has been accomplished, Christ will resume His direct dealings with Israel after His second coming.

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer [Christ], and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:[Israel] (Rom 11:25,26)

And of course, there are tons of OT prophecies which show us the redeemed and restored kingdom of Israel on earth under Christ.

So those teachings by Dispensationalists were not created out of thin air. They are embedded in Scripture.
 
Last edited:

Trekson

Well-Known Member
Jul 24, 2012
2,084
218
63
67
Kentucky
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Where I part ways with dispensationalism is the pre-trib rapture and the separation of Israel(Jews) and the church. Both are one in Christ. Yes, I see a fulfillment of the engrafting of the Jews and then God dealing with the Jews. However, I don’t think that means they are separate entities, but one ppl in Christ.

I agree with you. I don't know if you read my post, "the body vs. the bride" but it deals with that issue
 
  • Like
Reactions: SovereignGrace

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,741
5,593
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This event....

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. - 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

Will happen at this time....

That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. - 2 Thessalonians 2:2-3

1. Falling Away - Which is now occurring
2. Son of Perdition - The revealing of the Anti-Christ

I believe when the Anti-Christ makes his scene (which is not that far away) it is time for the rapture prophecy to come true.
This is all just a big misunderstanding, for lack of spiritual discernment.

Each thing named has a simple answer, but for lack of understanding people make it out to be something complicated and end up pushing it all off to the future because they are blind to what is right in front of them.

Let's see...
  • "The Lord himself shall descent from heaven with a shout", etc. ... happens every time someone hears him knocking and opens the door.
  • "The dead in Christ shall rise first" ... which they did [already] with him at his resurrection and ascension.
  • "We which are alive" ... are alive now, which begins when we are born again of the spirit of God, and has been going on for 2000 years.
  • "Except there come a falling away first" ... which happened in the garden of Eden.
  • "That man of sin be revealed" ... which was made manifest in the sons of Adam and all who have been born since.
All of which was foretold by Hosea the prophet, saying "Look behind you, O Benjamin!" ("son of the right hand", meaning: son of the spirit of God).

The future rapture nonsense is the foretold "strong delusion."
 

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Agree...some will be in for a shock when it doesn't happen.
( and they are not prepared to 'stand'. )

Standing firm doesn't have to do with whether you suspect a pretrib gathering or do not suspect a pretrib gathering...

An argument could be made that those who expect Him at any moment are more prepared, if anything.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Taken

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The rapture can occur at any time. Thus we look for it today. Today could be the day.

Could the Second coming of Christ occur today? How so if the temple is not yet built? So, no need to watch....cause He can't come till the temple is built. Correct?

Stranger
 
  • Like
Reactions: Taken

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,741
5,593
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The rapture can occur at any time. Thus we look for it today. Today could be the day.

Could the Second coming of Christ occur today? How so if the temple is not yet built? So, no need to watch....cause He can't come till the temple is built. Correct?

Stranger
Of actual stones...or spiritual stones? 1 Peter 2:5
 
  • Like
Reactions: VictoryinJesus

Anthony D'Arienzo

Well-Known Member
Jan 3, 2019
2,585
2,084
113
70
georgia
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This event....

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. - 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

Will happen at this time....

That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. - 2 Thessalonians 2:2-3

1. Falling Away - Which is now occurring
2. Son of Perdition - The revealing of the Anti-Christ

I believe when the Anti-Christ makes his scene (which is not that far away) it is time for the rapture prophecy to come true.
Jesus said it was the last dayjn6
 

n2thelight

Well-Known Member
Dec 24, 2006
4,052
787
113
60
Atlanta,Ga
1. The necessity of a pre-tribulation rapture is shown in 2 Thess 2. The Antichrist cannot take control unless the divine Restrainer (the Holy Spirit) is taken out of the way. And that can only happen when the Church and the Holy Spirit are taken up to Heaven. The Tribulation and the reign of the Antichrist are simultaneous, corresponding to the first half (3 1/2 years) of Daniel's 70th week.

2. Paul makes it crystal clear in Romans 11 that when the fulness of the Gentiles (within the church) has been accomplished, Christ will resume His direct dealings with Israel after His second coming.

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer [Christ], and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:[Israel] (Rom 11:25,26)

And of course, there are tons of OT prophecies which show us the redeemed and restored kingdom of Israel on earth under Christ.

So those teachings by Dispensationalists were not created out of thin air. They are embedded in Scripture.

You have #1 wrong

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

What's the coming of Christ and our gathering correct?

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come , except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

What day?

Does this verse not state the man of sin MUST be revealed before Christ returns?

Jesus Christ is not gathering anyone to Him, nor is He coming here to earth, except there be a falling away first. The word for "falling away", in the Greek is "apostasy". Jesus told us in His revelation to John, in Revelation 9:11, that "Apollyon" is one of Satan's names, and this name is derived from the word apostasy.

The word "perdition" means "one that perishes". Satan and only Satan has already been condemned to die [to perish] by God. Satan's judgment day has come already back in the first earth age, and he will have no part in the Great White Throne judgment, or any other judgment yet to come. He has already been judged, and sentence by God to death "perdition" [Ezekiel 28 covers this judgment].

What did Paul say again?

Jesus Christ is coming back to this earth, but the saints of Christ will not be gathered to Him until the "son of perdition" [Satan] be revealed first. How will we know who he is when he arrives?

Revelation 17:8 "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is [shall come]."

This beast "thou [John] sawest", was in the first earth age; and is not on this earth now, as it is written in Revelation 12:7. Satan is in heaven being our accuser, and will be cast out to this earth very shortly by Michael.

"And shall ascend out of the bottomless pit; and go into perdition;" Who is he again? He is Satan the Antichrist. Satan is not a man born of woman, but a "supernatural arch angel". In Ezekiel 28 it is written that Satan [Lucifer] is the most beautiful of all God's created beings.

In Isaiah 14:12; "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lu'-ci-fer [day star], son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!" Lucifer then is another name for Satan; he is also called the Dragon, the serpent, and many other names accounting for the roles he plays, and in our generation he will also be called the "Antichrist".

Isaiah 14:13; "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:"

Satan is saying, I'm going to be God, and be above the sons [stars] of God. The "mount of the congregation" is on mount Zion; and that is "the side of the north" where Jesus Christ's temple will be.

Isaiah 14:14; "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High." Satan is saying again, he is going to be God.

Isaiah 14:15; "Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell [sheol], to the sides of the pit."

Who is this that is going into the pit? Who is this son of perdition? It is Lucifer, who is Satan, the "son of perdition". The "son of perdition" of II Thessalonians 2:3 is none other than Satan himself, coming to earth to play the role of Jesus Christ. Paul then is saying that the true Christ, Jesus Christ, will not return to earth until this "apostasy" takes place first.

Isaiah 14:16; "They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;"

Following Jesus Christ's return to earth, and when the Antichrist [Satan] is safely in the pit; the world will wonder; how could Satan have shook all the kingdoms? They simply can't believe that they were deceived into believing this man to be God. Are you going to be one of those deceived into believing Satan is the Christ, or do you know the difference?

Paul is saying to the Thessalonians that Jesus Christ will not come, or will their be a gathering of the saints until you see the Antichrist [son of perdition] first. It takes a lot of guts to take the word of a false preacher, over Paul, Jesus, John, Isaiah, and a whole host of other prophets and disciples. This "apostasy" [falling away] is caused by the "son of perdition", and you will see him live and in person, very shortly.

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

The "Son of perdition" is Satan and Isaiah just told us this very same thing. Remember, the temple of God is on mount Zion, and "on the side of the North". This person sitting there is sitting in God's seat, pretending to be God: "Showing himself that he is God."

Do you know what Jesus said about this very thing. Jesus called it in Matthew 24:15, the very same thing that Daniel called it in Daniel 9:27; "the Abomination of desolation". A more correct translation in the "James Moffatt translation Bible" is called "The abomination by the desolator".

"Satan claiming to be God" is the abomination, and "he" [Satan] is the desolator, for the entire world will believe him; except for God's elect, and all those who have the seal of God in their minds [foreheads]. The sealed of God have their gospel armor on, and they are ready to face Satan and his system in the spiritual warfare.
 

n2thelight

Well-Known Member
Dec 24, 2006
4,052
787
113
60
Atlanta,Ga
II Thessalonians 2:5 "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"

Paul is again reminding them.

II Thessalonians 2:6 "And now ye know what withholdeth [that which restraineth to the end] that he might be revealed in his time [own season]."

"And now", is Paul's reminder to them that they did talk about this when he was with them in person. Who then is this one that would "be revealed in his time?"

The subject here is "the son of perdition", Satan, the Antichrist, or what ever name you desire to use for him. He is Satan, and Satan will commit the "abomination of desolation" of Daniel 9:27; and the church will be here to see it, because the "gathering", or Christ's return follows this.

II Thessalonians 2:7 "For the mystery of iniquity [lawlessness] doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

There is no mystery around when this will take place, for we will know his methods of operation [withholdeth], and the signs, the seasons, and the times of Satan's arrival to earth. If you are in the Word of God and not following these "one verse preachers", you will know when to expect the Antichrist. You will also know within hours of when to expect our Lord Jesus Christ's return. Satan's reign on earth is not seven years because God reduced that time to five months for the "elect's" sake, as Jesus told us in Matthew 24:22. Jesus also revealed that the time is shortened to five months, to John in Revelation 9:5, and 10.

The "mystery of lawlessness" is the mystery of iniquity. "He who now letteth will let"; in the Greek should be translated; "He who holds fast [ketcho] will stand." The ellipsis, or "omission from an expression of a word clearly implied"; "There is one who hold's fast", instead of by repeating the verb, "will let". However, "katecho" is a transitive verb, and an object must be supplied also. So if the subject in verse six is Satan, then the object must be his position in the heavenlies [see Ephesians 6:12], from which he will be ejected from heaven by Michael [Revelation 12:7-9].

"Out of the way", in the Greek is "out of ek", or "the midst". It is the same expression used in Acts 17:33, and I Corinthians 5:2.

Many "rapture theorists" claim this one who "letteth" is the Holy Spirit, and they claim that when He is "taken away", then the Antichrist will come. By reversing the role of the characters in the verses here, and attributing what is Satan's to the Holy Spirit, you have a whole new doctrine called the "Any moment doctrine". This false doctrine is better known as the "rapture theory". It is dangerous to play around with a foreign language; and when the flock relies upon their shepherd for the truth, and the shepherd is assumed to be correct; in ignorance it is accepted just because he said it.

It is Michael who "holds fast" on to Lucifer [the Antichrist], and Michael will continue to keep Lucifer held until the appointed time, spoken of above. That time is appointed by God. Then at the appointed time God will give Satan the keys [authority] to release his fallen angels and they will be cast to the earth [see Revelation 9:1-10]. Let's take a look at the one [Michael] who holds on to Satan now.

Revelation 12:7; "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels," Michael [that is who the "he" is in II Thessalonians 2:7 and his [Michael's] angels fought against the dragon [another name for Satan] and his [Satan's] fallen angels.

Revelation 12:8; "And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." This war took place in heaven, and that is where Satan and his angels are now; though Satan's spirit, and demonic spirits are all over the earth today. Now we will see what Michael does with Satan, in fulfilling II Thessalonians 2:7.

Revelation 12:9; "And the great dragon [Satan] was cast out [that is the transitive verb of verse seven], that old serpent [this is the role Satan played in the Garden of Eden], called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world [except for God's elect]: he was cast out onto the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

This is when Satan will physically appear on earth as a man with his angels. This is the time of the Antichrist's coming, and we must know when this time is by when these events takes place, for Satan comes at the sixth trumpet.

Then the verse picks up where Satan is standing in the holy place. Satan's object is to deceive all the world, and have the world take his markings in their minds. God's Word thus says that Satan will come to earth and stand in that Holy place, before Christ will come and gather anyone back to Himself.
 

n2thelight

Well-Known Member
Dec 24, 2006
4,052
787
113
60
Atlanta,Ga
Let me ask a question,what are we suppose to be watching for?

Mark 13:37 "And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch."

Mark 13 is just like Matthew 24 so if you claim it's just written for the Jew's ,who is the all,and what are the Jew's watching when most don't believe that Christ was the Son of God?

What again are we watching for?If Christ could return at anytime to which scripture clearly states that He cannot what are you watching?

Jesus is giving us in this chapter the seven events that must come to pass to bring to an end to this age, and the return of Christ. There are many church traditions that have complicate the simplicity the Jesus is teaching here. This is why we should have our ear tuned to the Lord Jesus Christ, and not to man's traditions. So the subject to this entire chapter is, "When is the end of this world age, and what are the events that mark that coming."

If He's giving you all the signs that must and will happen before His return,how can He return before all the signs?

If He returns before all of these signs are complete He lied,and one thing I know that all agree on this site is the fact that Christ cannot lie!!!!