When to look for the rapture of the church

historyb said:

It happened when Israel was taken by Rome. Remember he said this generation not 2000 years later

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He also said this generation the sees all those things. That would include Matthew 25:31-46 which is an expositional commentary by Yeshua on Joel 3, in which Joel writes about the nations being judged for how they treat Israel when Yeshua returns. And that follows Joel 2 which is a reference to the Day of the Lord / GT period. Compare Joel 2 with Matthew 24. And what Joel talks about has not occurred yet. Even Joel 2:16 is a reference of the Groom (Messiah) coming out of the wedding chamber / chupah (heaven) with His bride (church). Well, that hasn't happened yet, as that happens at the end of the GT period. Matthew 24-25 has many nuances in it that show it was prophetic warnings intended for Hebrews, not the church. That would make sense, as Matthew wrote his Gospel primarily with Hebrews in mind right out of the gate.

So there is no way that all could have been fulfilled by 70 AD. Only is one allegorizes the scripture to extremes, and then not sure it still can be accomplished.

Copperhead said:

He also said this generation the sees all those things. That would include Matthew 25:31-46 which is an expositional commentary by Yeshua on Joel 3, in which Joel writes about the nations being judged for how they treat Israel when Yeshua returns. And that follows Joel 2 which is a reference to the Day of the Lord / GT period. Compare Joel 2 with Matthew 24. And what Joel talks about has not occurred yet. Even Joel 2:16 is a reference of the Groom (Messiah) coming out of the wedding chamber / chupah (heaven) with His bride (church). Well, that hasn't happened yet, as that happens at the end of the GT period. Matthew 24-25 has many nuances in it that show it was prophetic warnings intended for Hebrews, not the church. That would make sense, as Matthew wrote his Gospel primarily with Hebrews in mind right out of the gate.

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I don't happen to believe your ideas

Enoch111 said:

Seventy weeks [490 years] are determined upon thy people [Israel] and upon thy holy city [Jerusalem],
[1]to finish the transgression,
[2]and to make an end of sins,
[3]and to make reconciliation for iniquity,
[4] and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
[5] and to seal up the vision and prophecy,
[6] and to anoint the most Holy.

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The words in question I was talking about were "to seal up the vision and prophecy." The original actually reads, "to seal up the vision and the prophet," meaning Daniel specifically. I don't take it to be a reference to the timing of the ending of the 70 weeks, but as referring to the entire series of events that would confirm the vision of Daniel.

About the entire verse, I take "to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity" to be a reference not to Christ's sacrifice (which happened 2,000 years earlier), but to the end of judgments against the nation of Israel for her sins. Thus, "bringing in everlasting righteousness" thereafter, as well as "anointing the most Holy" would not necessarily have to be tied strictly to the 70 weeks, because it refers more specifically to the earliest phrases (#s 1-3).

historyb said:

I don't happen to believe your ideas

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That's cool. I don't believe yours. So we both can sleep well at night.

But Pretorists (and many others unfortunately) fail to follow one simple little Torah requirement. For any issue to be established, it has to be supported by two or more witnesses. For doctrine, that would be the OT and NT, not just one or the other, but both. The Bereans affirmed that standard and the HS commended them for it. Remember, everything Paul taught them. they checked the scripture to verify if it was true. All the Bereans had for scripture was the OT.

Now in my rebuttal to you, I gave you the OT passages that Yeshua was doing his discourse on in Matthew 24-25. For your position to have any validity, you must produce OT support for you position regarding the passage. That is a requirement according to the Torah and as exampled by the Bereans.

historyb said:

Not God, many evangelicals as fraud. Like ones who think you have to think like they do that there is all this silliness. Me I don't care if you think like I do but I will voice my opinion on matters

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Sounds like you've had a tough time with Evangelicals. Personally I'm not sure I even know what one is. I've spent my entire Christian life outside mainline denominationalism, and think for myself continually, so I have no problems whatsoever with you doing likewise. I simply have problems with how your particular line of thinking on this issue paints the Living God.

But while I doubt we'll come to agreement on this issue, at least we can agree on the importance of thinking for ourselves, so I'll end it on a good note.

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him

Copperhead said:

That's cool. I don't believe yours. So we both can sleep well at night.

But Pretorists (and many others unfortunately) fail to follow one simple little Torah requirement. For any issue to be established, it has to be supported by two or more witnesses. For doctrine, that would be the OT and NT, not just one or the other, but both. The Bereans affirmed that standard and the HS commended them for it. Remember, everything Paul taught them. they checked the scripture to verify if it was true. All the Bereans had for scripture was the OT.

Now in my rebuttal to you, I gave you the OT passages that Yeshua was doing his discourse on in Matthew 24-25. For your position to have any validity, you must produce OT support for you position regarding the passage. That is a requirement according to the Torah and as exampled by the Bereans.

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No, the bereans were not a positive thing.

CoreIssue said:

A lot of different opinions on that.

For me, 1948 when Israel was restored. That set a countdown clock in motion.

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In 1948 did the Jews run around claiming that ? No not at all ! never.

Only Man worked to bring the Jews back to the Land, not God at all ! and Hitler was the main promoters of such long before that with doing the work of his Masters the Talmud and the so called Zionist.

The Satanic Talmud mob and their most wealthy world banks Satanist all worked in the Game to create Communism, this was all planed way in advance and then looking at the situation of just how many Jews there were in Germany, they had to work out a plain, so as to kill the 6 million and this type of crap was printed in the Media years before about 6 million etc, it's fishing for Satanist just like the nonsense of today with all the rapture BS lies.
Many of the Jews in German through out all the decades 2000 year history of such who were educated and had a true understanding of true Judaism and the Talmud because of that seen such as a greatest threat, because they knew the Talmud whore truly was, so the Talmud world Bankers created the Great depression and kicked Germany about the hardest, it was all set up and then put their Talmud Zionist Jew man Hitler into power, if you truly bother to look at how Hitler got into power you can see that it was rigged, look at the party that helped Hitler into power and then they were dissolved by a law ? you don't see the history of that explained do you because they hide the fact and that gave their man Hitler the power and then they just turned the Nation around to power it up, so the Talmud Bankers etc could make good money out of it and them rich Zionist Jews were in there making great money everywhere, but the game had to turn, because the plan is set, they play such games years ahead you know, one can see it's in play all the time when you know how the games are played, like gay rights or marriage equality, when you see how they play the game to make such win out, all the people are played for stooges, they rush it through claiming it's only this !!! but then bingo it's not at all and they take the cake. just like in Hitler's day as to why his crap all got passed without a peep, because the Talmud had wound the people up to take part in what they did and the same game with a whole bag of tricks was played with getting the block of Land for the Jews, they never said that it was for restoring Israel at all you now, as you and most are led to believe nowadays, because most people back in them days would not agreed to such at all, so the trick was hatched on the people thinking that this was only so that Jews would have a land as not be persecuted, as due to Hitler's crap etc and that's all as to why it got past.

Thing is why would God bring back an unrepentant into the land that He vomited out. it just does not stand up to scrutiny at all as it falls flat on it's face ! such is straight out Satanic. not to mention that such people peddling all this rapture nonsense are working in destroying the church mocking Jesus Christ straight out !

Here look into how a group of Satanist that hide in the shadows of our west democracy has helped every communist nation survive for years, because if they did not prop it all up with billions of tax payers money, it would of failed many years ago, they need such communist Nations to play the game.

CoreIssue said:

A lot of different opinions on that.

For me, 1948 when Israel was restored. That set a countdown clock in motion.

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So you saying the rapture became possible in 1948?So for you the rapture could not have happened before then?

Stranger said:

Just because something is 'material' doesn't make it evil and corrupt. You need to get away from that.

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Didn’t say evil. Decaying. Passing away. Romans 8:20-21 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, [21] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

rockytopva said:

And such outlook keeps one pure...

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. - 1 John 3:2-3

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Why are you(rapturist)looking for anything if it can happen at anytime?

farouk said:

I don't see any prophecy that has to happen first Scripturally before the church is removed.

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So Matthew 24 and Mark 13 means nothing to you?

Enoch111 said:

King James Bible (2 Thess 2:7)
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

New American Standard Bible (2 Thess 2:7)
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

Who -- other than God Himself -- can restrain Satan and the Antichrist? Even Michael could not do so, as powerful as he is.

God the Holy Spirit is on earth for several ministries, one of them being to restrain the evil deeds of Satan. Things would be a lot worse if that there were not the case. When the Restrainer is taken out of the way, the world will become totally evil for 3 1/2 years and all will be under the power of the Antichrist. And since the Holy Spirit indwells the children of God (the true Church) BOTH will be taken to Heaven (out of the way) BEFORE the Tribulation.

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When you say the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way,where is He going?

Why do we need the gospel armor if we not gonna be here?

Ephesians 6:11 "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil."

Does the verse say fly away or STAND?

CoreIssue said:

Catholicism hates the rapture and the Tribulation Period. They totally defy and undermine a lot of catholic beliefs.

Calling them fantasy is total absurdity. That dismisses Daniel, Matthew, that revelation and a lot of old testament prophecy.

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All the theologians, scripture scholars, bishops, saints and reformers were incapable of interpreting God's word....until....
...John Nelson Darby came along. He broke off from the Plymouth Brethren over theological disputes. Founder of the Exclusive Brethren sect, Darby invented pre-tribulation rapture theology in 1830 that was totally foreign to all of Christianity.

His theory was further popularized in the United States in the early 20th century by the wide circulation of the Scofield Reference Bible. The footnotes were made doctrine by American dispensationists.

...fast forward to 1970...

The biggest-selling work of non-fiction (other than the Bible) since 1970 is dispensationalist Hal Lindsey’s The Late Great Planet Earth (Bantam, 1970), which sold more than 40 million copies and established the blueprint for a number of other popular, self-described “Bible prophecy” experts (including Tim LaHaye, creator and coauthor of the Left Behind series)

LaHaye’s first work of “Bible prophecy” was The Beginning of the End (Tyndale, 1972), essentially a carbon copy of Lindsey’s mega-seller. In the years that followed, Lindsey and LaHaye, along with authors such as Salem Kirban, David Wilkinson, Dave Hunt, Grant Jeffrey, John Walvoord, and others, produced a string of best-selling books warning of the rapidly approaching pretribulation Rapture, the Antichrist, and the tribulation.

One message of LaHaye’s that comes across clearly in books such as Are We Living in the End Times?, Rapture Under Attack, and Revelation Unveiled is that the Catholic Church is apostate, Catholicism is “Babylonian mysticism” and an “idolatrous religion,” and Catholics worship Mary, knowing little about the real Jesus Christ. It’s difficult to overstate the dislike — even hatred — LaHaye has for the Catholic Church or to exaggerate the ridiculous character of his attacks. He condemns the use of candles in Catholic churches, insists there’s hardly any difference between Hinduism and Catholicism, and emphatically declares that the Catholic Church killed at least 40 million people during the “dark ages.”

When I asked LaHaye, via e-mail, why he never refers to Catholic sources or official documents in his writings, he replied:

Because I think that for centuries the Catholic Church has presented church history in a manner protective of “Mother church.” . . . I have seen more concern on the part of your church for Hindus, Buddhists, and other pagan religions than they do [sic] for those who love Jesus Christ as He is presented in the Bible and are committed to making Him known to the lost so they will not be Left Behind.

In other words, the Catholic Church is simply wrong and doesn’t deserve a fair hearing. LaHaye has not only revealed himself to be an anti-Catholic polemicist but a theologian with a seriously skewed view of God’s salvific work. In a newspaper interview, LaHaye said, “We’ve [himself and Jenkins] created a series of books about the greatest cosmic event that will happen in the history of the world.” What is that “greatest cosmic event”? The Incarnation? The Cross? The Resurrection? No, the Rapture — a modern, man-made belief based on a distorted Christology and an anemic ecclesiology.

Library : Five Myths About the Rapture

It's ironic; all this talk about "end time persecution" and/or "great tribulation" while guys like Lahaye inflict it on Catholics.

copied from https://www.christianityboard.com/t...or-will-you-be-left-behind.26166/#post-415216

Look at all the Sodomites in the Roman Catholic Church claiming to be Priest and all, not to mention all the same types peddling their Satanic crap in every Church and all nowadays, the proof is in the pudding !
Our Cardinal Pell has got done for Sodomy, I look at all of his carrying on about the years of abuse of children and he was not truly worthy of protecting such going on back then at all or ever was, he was in cahoots for sure and the fact is nothing has changed truly at all and it never will, I have seen the corruption only get far worse now than ever, when talking to such people in positions of power over children, they are just getting better in dealing with such things for their own ends now and the majority of people are to stupid to understand the reality of such things when it comes to the law and all, it is so vast that the average person is way out of their depth and when such happens to a child, just see how you go now ! the fundamentals have not changed.
I asked now why or how did such get away with all this crap for so many years ? the question will never be answered because the Government will be seen for who they truly are, a bunch of Satanist who have been adding and abetting such standing over Police and the top ranks of Police are into it up to their neck, they are planted their in such jobs and the Media runs the circus, hiding everything that it can as always, it's a great whore ! the Talmud is through out all such people, they have that much power and know how to control the people.
Our Jails are full of rape going on for years and nothing is truly being done about it even nowadays, I worked with a person on a job site who was a screw before then, who said it went on everyday and he thought nothing of it all. where is the Government on this issue ? such proves the government is controlled by Satanist.

Enoch111 said:

But we can show -- and we have shown -- how the implicit confirms what is not explicitly stated. But scoffers will come in the last days, and no matter what you show them, they will scoff.

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Do you really believe that? I think I've lost count of the times I've asked you to back up your claims and ideas with actual scriptures. Or asked for you to show how the scripture you have given can possibly be shown to say what you are claiming it does. Usually that is met with more derision and more opinion, rather than actual scriptural exegesis. I don't just ask for a careful walk-through of scripture for the fun of it...I'm quite serious about wanting to see your careful progression and how you see it all linking together. If you think it makes biblical sense...show me! Don't just tell me it does and label me a scoffer 'cause you can't be bothered taking the time to post it.

If this rapture can happen at anytime,can a rapturist please tell me what are you all watching for?

Do you all just walk around with your head to the sky?

epostle said:

All the theologians, scripture scholars, bishops, saints and reformers were incapable of interpreting God's word....until....
...John Nelson Darby came along. He broke off from the Plymouth Brethren over theological disputes. Founder of the Exclusive Brethren sect, Darby invented pre-tribulation rapture theology in 1830 that was totally foreign to all of Christianity.

His theory was further popularized in the United States in the early 20th century by the wide circulation of the Scofield Reference Bible. The footnotes were made doctrine by American dispensationists.

...fast forward to 1970...

The biggest-selling work of non-fiction (other than the Bible) since 1970 is dispensationalist Hal Lindsey’s The Late Great Planet Earth (Bantam, 1970), which sold more than 40 million copies and established the blueprint for a number of other popular, self-described “Bible prophecy” experts (including Tim LaHaye, creator and coauthor of the Left Behind series)

LaHaye’s first work of “Bible prophecy” was The Beginning of the End (Tyndale, 1972), essentially a carbon copy of Lindsey’s mega-seller. In the years that followed, Lindsey and LaHaye, along with authors such as Salem Kirban, David Wilkinson, Dave Hunt, Grant Jeffrey, John Walvoord, and others, produced a string of best-selling books warning of the rapidly approaching pretribulation Rapture, the Antichrist, and the tribulation.

One message of LaHaye’s that comes across clearly in books such as Are We Living in the End Times?, Rapture Under Attack, and Revelation Unveiled is that the Catholic Church is apostate, Catholicism is “Babylonian mysticism” and an “idolatrous religion,” and Catholics worship Mary, knowing little about the real Jesus Christ. It’s difficult to overstate the dislike — even hatred — LaHaye has for the Catholic Church or to exaggerate the ridiculous character of his attacks. He condemns the use of candles in Catholic churches, insists there’s hardly any difference between Hinduism and Catholicism, and emphatically declares that the Catholic Church killed at least 40 million people during the “dark ages.”

When I asked LaHaye, via e-mail, why he never refers to Catholic sources or official documents in his writings, he replied:

Because I think that for centuries the Catholic Church has presented church history in a manner protective of “Mother church.” . . . I have seen more concern on the part of your church for Hindus, Buddhists, and other pagan religions than they do [sic] for those who love Jesus Christ as He is presented in the Bible and are committed to making Him known to the lost so they will not be Left Behind.

In other words, the Catholic Church is simply wrong and doesn’t deserve a fair hearing. LaHaye has not only revealed himself to be an anti-Catholic polemicist but a theologian with a seriously skewed view of God’s salvific work. In a newspaper interview, LaHaye said, “We’ve [himself and Jenkins] created a series of books about the greatest cosmic event that will happen in the history of the world.” What is that “greatest cosmic event”? The Incarnation? The Cross? The Resurrection? No, the Rapture — a modern, man-made belief based on a distorted Christology and an anemic ecclesiology.

Library : Five Myths About the Rapture

It's ironic; all this talk about "end time persecution" and/or "great tribulation" while guys like Lahaye inflict it on Catholics.

copied from https://www.christianityboard.com/t...or-will-you-be-left-behind.26166/#post-415216

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All that is true that you have put forward about all his.

They are Satanist and they can not even back what they say up at all. but many believe such fools, that I have come across many such believers over the years of such idiots.

I have come across Roman Catholics as they do claim as well, especially nowadays that are totally lost as to the true RCC teachings were, but all are not that stupid or ignorant that I know, because they do study the Bible. many just come for a social gathering etc and know nothing much at all in depth or care at all, they just come to sing. but are just good Socialist working for man like most in any church sadly Lukewarm if that, but as for the rapture mob they love this rubbish, I think it due to weakness of the mind and lack of Soul.
Such nonsense is really Satanic to wish harm on all the people of the world, not to mention want to take part in such Satanic dribble.
I see them as a mob just like that of Hitler's Nazis or Stalin's mob of total morons who were the biggest murdering pack of jackal's and it's the same thing today with greenies who are happy claiming that 80% of the worlds population has to go so as to save mother earth, sadly such degenerates get away with ranting such Satanic genocide, no one stands up to them to condemn them for saying such insane madness.
But funny that if one questions about something about the Jews just does not truly seem to add up, you have to totally believe everything and not question such at all or they will use malice towards you. but one can bag a Roman Catholic without any regard at all.
Sadly now we are getting to the point that we are not allowed to point out any faults with Islam as well.

It makes you wonder who is pulling the strings, we once had freedom to speak out on any issue you wanted to, but for Nazi Germany and the Communist who were enslaved into what they could do or say. so why is it that the west wants to fall into the same trap as all of them had to follow like idiots to the flame. I suppose that is what happens to idiots like taking to running across the road like a fool. I seen it just yesterday a uni student. you are to stop and them look to the right and then to the left and then right again and then walk straight across the road hear in Australia.

n2thelight said:

When you say the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way,where is He going?

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Back to Heaven. He was sent from Heaven on the Day of Pentecost to fulfil a number of ministries. When the Church has been completed, It will be removed to Heaven, along with the Holy Spirit so that the Antichrist can take TOTAL CONTROL of the inhabitants of the world. See 2 Thess 2.