Eve in the Garden

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BARNEY BRIGHT

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They didn't abuse it, they used it.

If one is not free to say no they are not truly free. To love you have to be free to hate as well.

You calvinist only see one side of the coin.

Yes actually they did abuse the free will God gave them. Do you honestly believe that when God gave his intelligent creatures free will it was his will that they be disobedient to him or was it God's purpose that his intelligent creatures use their free will in a way that showed their love and faith in him.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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God foreknew what would happen and included in his Plan.

If they had not eaten I don't think they would have children. They didn't have sex until they ate.


I disagree with the fact that you say Jehovah God purpose included sin and death. That it included an Angel to become a Satan and a devil. The scriptures show us that nothing evil originates from God, but you are saying that all the evil, the wars, murders, sexual immorality, all evil existed in the mind of Jehovah God before he created anything then he put all that in motion when he began to create. You are saying that when God commanded Adam to not eat of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil he was commanding him to do something that was impossible for him to do. Do you honestly believe any of this seriously. You have to remember that God is infallible so if he looked in the future and seen all these things was going to happen before he began creating then no intelligent creatures free will could change what God saw. If any created creature free will could change what God saw before he created anything then God wouldn't be infallible would he. It seems like you are saying that basically God programed everything and we are just following that program. Doesn't that mean that God has chosen or programed some to be his enemies others to be his servants before he created anything, but how could any truly be hating God or others be truly be loving him if they're just following a program. They're not really choosing anything are they? They're just following a program that God set in motion when he began to create, aren't they?
 

Mayflower

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I disagree with the fact that you say Jehovah God purpose included sin and death. That it included an Angel to become a Satan and a devil. The scriptures show us that nothing evil originates from God, but you are saying that all the evil, the wars, murders, sexual immorality, all evil existed in the mind of Jehovah God before he created anything then he put all that in motion when he began to create. You are saying that when God commanded Adam to not eat of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil he was commanding him to do something that was impossible for him to do. Do you honestly believe any of this seriously. You have to remember that God is infallible so if he looked in the future and seen all these things was going to happen before he began creating then no intelligent creatures free will could change what God saw. If any created creature free will could change what God saw before he created anything then God wouldn't be infallible would he. It seems like you are saying that basically God programed everything and we are just following that program. Doesn't that mean that God has chosen or programed some to be his enemies others to be his servants before he created anything, but how could any truly be hating God or others be truly be loving him if they're just following a program. They're not really choosing anything are they? They're just following a program that God set in motion when he began to create, aren't they?

Do you believe that God is omniscient?

And I am not trying to be disrespectful when I ask if you have ever seen Dr. Strange.
 

CoreIssue

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So are you saying you don't believe Jehovah God sent his Only-begotten Son to earth in the likeness of Adam? That you don't believe Gods Only-begotten Son when on Earth didn't have free will? See I believe Jehovahs Only-begotten Son has free will and always have had free will, all of the intelligent creatures Jehovah God brought into existence has always had free will and always will have free will. The scriptures show us that Jehovah God Only-begotten Son when on Earth was tempted just like us but didn't sin, didn't disobey his father and God. That means that Jesus Christ when on Earth as a perfect sinless human proved that Adam had the ability by his free will to always choose to be obedient to God. Do you honestly believe that when God commanded Adam to not eat of the knowledge of the Tree of good and evil that God was commanding something that was impossible for Adam to do.

Adam was the Son God but not God incarnate.. Jesus is the Son God and God incarnate, the second Adam

The flesh of both brief human and created by God. The second person of the Trinity indwelt Jesus while God briefing into the body of Adam his spirit. Of course Adam could have obeyed and not eaten.

Luke 3:38
the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.
 
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CoreIssue

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I disagree with the fact that you say Jehovah God purpose included sin and death. That it included an Angel to become a Satan and a devil. The scriptures show us that nothing evil originates from God, but you are saying that all the evil, the wars, murders, sexual immorality, all evil existed in the mind of Jehovah God before he created anything then he put all that in motion when he began to create. You are saying that when God commanded Adam to not eat of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil he was commanding him to do something that was impossible for him to do. Do you honestly believe any of this seriously. You have to remember that God is infallible so if he looked in the future and seen all these things was going to happen before he began creating then no intelligent creatures free will could change what God saw. If any created creature free will could change what God saw before he created anything then God wouldn't be infallible would he. It seems like you are saying that basically God programed everything and we are just following that program. Doesn't that mean that God has chosen or programed some to be his enemies others to be his servants before he created anything, but how could any truly be hating God or others be truly be loving him if they're just following a program. They're not really choosing anything are they? They're just following a program that God set in motion when he began to create, aren't they?

Why do you keep misrepresenting what I said?

God foreknew everything that will happen. He foreknew everyone that would love him and predestined them all the way to glorification. He knew Satan and one 3rd of the angels would rebel. He knew Adam and Eve would eat.

Then he used all that information in his Plan.

Read the old testament. God wiped mankind from the face of the earth with the flood. That he has told how many he will kill in the Tribulation Period. He has told us he will kill everyone on the earth at the end of time.

You're describing calvinism and saying God plans everyone's actions. I am saying God knows what everyone's free will actions will be then deals with them.

If you cannot understand the difference I don't to say.
 

CoreIssue

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Yes actually they did abuse the free will God gave them. Do you honestly believe that when God gave his intelligent creatures free will it was his will that they be disobedient to him or was it God's purpose that his intelligent creatures use their free will in a way that showed their love and faith in him.

It was not his will. His will was that they make decisions free will.

You remind me of the democratic liberals. They determine what is right and wrong and ensure were every one lives their vision.

Your problem is that with a freewill there is no love, obedience or repentance. There's only a bunch of puppets on strings.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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They didn't abuse it, they used it.

If one is not free to say no they are not truly free. To love you have to be free to hate as well.

You calvinist only see one side of the coin.

If you think when God gave his created intelligent beings (Angels & humans) free will that it was for them to choose to hate him and therefore be disobedient to him you're wrong. That was never God's purpose when it comes to his creation (Angels & Humans) when giving them free will. Did he want his creation to choose to love him and therefore be obedient to him because of that love they have for him and have faith based on that love , yes. Any other choice God would not approve of how they use their free will. Anyone saying that God wanted his creation to use their free will to hate God that God considers the use of free will this way not an abuse of that free will, I believe doesn' know anything about love, especially the love you supposed to have for God.
 
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CoreIssue

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If you think when God gave his created intelligent beings (Angels & humans) free will that it was for them to choose to hate him and therefore be disobedient to him you're wrong. That was never God's purpose when it comes to his creation (Angels & Humans) when giving them free will. Did he want his creation to choose to love him and therefore be obedient to him because of that love they have for him and have faith based on that love , yes. Any other choice God would not approve of how they use their free will. Anyone saying that God wanted his creation to use their free will to hate God that God considers the use of free will this way not an abuse of that free will, I believe doesn' know anything about love, especially the love you supposed to have for God.

So you are calvinist.
 

Mayflower

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Like I said, I mean no disrespect, but this is me trying to understand the mind of an amazing God. Because really I believe this is a grey matter that has no bearing on our salvation.

But Dr. Strange had this stone where he could see all the possible results of the future. He saw that the avengers only won in one of millions. Lol.

But I believe God knew every possible outcome when He made mankind. And He knew the result would be good in the end. Because no, I do not believe God would create us to perish. Jeremiah 29:11 talks about how He has plans to prosper us and not to harm us. Plans to give us a future and a hope. God is never changing and all knowing, thus is true to His nature. I do believe in free will. I just believe God's mind is far more then we can comprehend and our feeble minds can only speculate and argue with one another.

 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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Do you believe that God is omniscient?

And I am not trying to be disrespectful when I ask if you have ever seen Dr. Strange.


Many people believe that their life and future are predestined by God. They feel that from conception to death, we all follow a script already written in the mind of God. ‘After all,’ they say, ‘God is all-powerful and all-knowing, or omniscient, so surely he must know every detail about the past, the present, and the future.’

Does God foreordain our life course and ultimate destiny? In other words, is free will genuine or just an illusion? What does the scriptures say?

The scriptures leaves us in no doubt as to God’s having foreknowledge. He knows “from the beginning the finale,” says Isaiah 46:10. He even used humans to record many prophecies. (2 Peter 1:21) What is more, those prophecies always come true because God has both the wisdom and the power to fulfill them in every detail. God can not only foreknow but also foreordain events whenever he chooses to do so. However, does God foreordain the destiny of every human or even the total number who will gain salvation? Not according to the scriptures.

The scriptures teaches that God is selective when it comes to foreordaining the future. For example, God foretold that “a great crowd” of righteous humans would survive the destruction of the wicked at the end of the present system of things. (Revelation 7:9, 14) Note, though, that God did not give a specific number for that great crowd. The reason? He does not predestinate individuals. God is like the loving father of a large family. He knows that at least some of His children will reciprocate His love, but He does not predetermine the number.

If God predetermines everything, including every nasty accident and vile deed that has ever happened, could we not rightly blame him for all the misery and suffering in the world? Thus, upon closer inspection, the teaching of predestination does not honor God, but casts a pall over him. It paints him as cruel, unjust, and unloving—the very opposite of what the scriptures says about him.Deuteronomy 32:4.

By means of his servant Moses, God said to the nation of Israel: “I have put life and death before you, . . . and you must choose life . . . by loving Jehovah your God, by listening to his voice and by sticking to him; for he is your life and the length of your days.” (Deuteronomy 30:19, 20) Had God predestinated each Israelite either to love him and gain life or to disregard him and merit death, His words would have been both meaningless and insincere. Do you believe that God, “a lover of justice” and the very personification of love, would act in such an arbitrary way?—Psalm 37:28; 1 John 4:8.

God’s appeal to his servants to choose life applies even more so to us today, for the fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicates that we are rapidly approaching the end of the present system of things. (Matthew 24:3-9; 2 Timothy 3:1-5) How do we choose life? We do so in essentially the same way as the ancient Israelites did.

How Can You “Choose Life”?

We choose life by “loving Jehovah,” by “listening to his voice,” and by “sticking to him.” Of course, we can only do these things when we know God as a person and understand his requirements for us. In prayer to God, Jesus Christ said: “This is eternal life, to know you, the only true God, and him whom you have sent—Jesus Christ.”—Italics ours; John 17:3, Phillips.

That precious knowledge can be found in the pages of the Holy Bible, rightly called the Word of God. (John 17:17; 2 Timothy 3:16) Indeed, this spiritual gift is a tangible evidence that God has not predestined our future but wants us to make informed choices based on information he has provided.—Isaiah 48:17, 18.

By means of the Bible, God is, in effect, saying to us: ‘This is my purpose for mankind and the earth, and this is what you should do to gain everlasting life. It is now up to you to decide whether to listen to me or disregard me.’ Yes, how perfectly God balances his powers of foreordination with his respect for our free will! Will you choose life “by listening to [God’s] voice and by sticking to him”?
 

aspen

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Do you think if Eve didn't eat the fruit in the Garden of Eden, Adam would have, or one of their children? Was it bound to happen?

I don’t think so.

For one, I think the tree was like everything else in the Garden, it had a purpose and could be used correctly or incorrectly - the reason it was labeled the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is because it was misused. I also tend to think that after A&E overcame their temptation once, without acting on it, they would have never revisited it again. Perhaps God would have redefined the purpose of the tree to include eating from it if A&E asked - God provides for His children. Furthermore, I think if Adam and Eve had been together, neither one would have misused the tree because they would have supported each other or called out to God for help. We need each other, after all.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Like I said, I mean no disrespect, but this is me trying to understand the mind of an amazing God. Because really I believe this is a grey matter that has no bearing on our salvation.

But Dr. Strange had this stone where he could see all the possible results of the future. He saw that the avengers only won in one of millions. Lol.

But I believe God knew every possible outcome when He made mankind. And He knew the result would be good in the end. Because no, I do not believe God would create us to perish. Jeremiah 29:11 talks about how He has plans to prosper us and not to harm us. Plans to give us a future and a hope. God is never changing and all knowing, thus is true to His nature. I do believe in free will. I just believe God's mind is far more then we can comprehend and our feeble minds can only speculate and argue with one another.


I can't speak for everyone else but I'm not going to take a film from TV and relate or compare it to God and his wisdom. Anything you take from knowledge of a film is just basically philosophy of men isn't it? The scriptures tell us not to listen to the philosophy of men.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Adam was the Son God but not God incarnate.. Jesus is the Son God and God incarnate, the second Adam

The flesh of both brief human and created by God. The second person of the Trinity indwelt Jesus while God briefing into the body of Adam his spirit. Of course Adam could have obeyed and not eaten.

Luke 3:38
the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

Regardless of what any council or man has said about Jesus’ nature, the only reliable source of religious truth is the Bible. This Word reveals that Jesus is God’s Son and as such he was not and is not God. Jesus himself said: “I am God’s Son.” To Mary the angel Gabriel said: “What is born will be called holy, God’s Son.” Nothing is said of a God-man or a man-God. Nowhere in the Bible is Jesus called a “God-man” or “God incarnate.” Such assumptions are strictly human illusions tainted with paganism.—John 10:36; Luke 1:34, 35; 2:21.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Why do you keep misrepresenting what I said?

God foreknew everything that will happen. He foreknew everyone that would love him and predestined them all the way to glorification. He knew Satan and one 3rd of the angels would rebel. He knew Adam and Eve would eat.

Then he used all that information in his Plan.

Read the old testament. God wiped mankind from the face of the earth with the flood. That he has told how many he will kill in the Tribulation Period. He has told us he will kill everyone on the earth at the end of time.

You're describing calvinism and saying God plans everyone's actions. I am saying God knows what everyone's free will actions will be then deals with them.

If you cannot understand the difference I don't to say.

I'm not misrepresenting any thing you said you are the one that said: God foreknew what would happen and included that in his plan. So that reply I made I don't believe is misrepresenting that statement you made when you said, God foreknew what would happen and included it in his plan.

Plus at Genesis 1:28 God told a perfect sinless couple after creating them to be fruitful and multiply. Are you saying that God was asking something impossible for them or that Adam and Eve a perfect sinless couple would defy God in multiplying if they didn't eat of the forbidden fruit. You are the one who is saying that you don't believe they would have children unless they did eat the forbidden fruit.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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It was not his will. His will was that they make decisions free will.

You remind me of the democratic liberals. They determine what is right and wrong and ensure were every one lives their vision.

Your problem is that with a freewill there is no love, obedience or repentance. There's only a bunch of puppets on strings.

You can think whatever you want about me. It's You by what you say and believe that is saying God foreknew what would happen and included it his plan aren't you? I'm certainly not believing or saying that. So again what I replied about your statement isn't a misrepresentation. That statement you made that God foreknew what would happen and included it in his plan would also mean that God knew before he created the Angels that one would be a Satan and a devil. That before he created Adam and Eve that they would eat of the forbidden fruit so when God commanded Adam to not eat the forbidden fruit he knew he was asking something impossible for Adam why, because like I said God is infallible. If God saw that Adam would eat the forbidden fruit before he created Adam then that means that Adams free will couldn't prove God wrong about what he saw before God created him. Basically I believe you are saying that all of Creations history is simply following what God foreknew before he created anything. None of the intelligent beings in creation can make any decisions with their free will except what God saw before he created anything. If they could make any decision that was different from what God foreknew then that would prove God not to be infallible.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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So you are calvinist.

Like I said you can call me whatever you want. I'm not going to agree with you. You are saying too many awful things about God by how you believe about omniscience. Just because you have the definition of omniscience that you do, doesn't make that definition correct. Especially when I and others can see what awful things you are saying about God with the definition you have concerning omniscience.
 
D

Dave L

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They didn't abuse it, they used it.

If one is not free to say no they are not truly free. To love you have to be free to hate as well.

You calvinist only see one side of the coin.
The way I see it is Adam had free will but lost it when he sinned. From there he became a slave to sin and all his free choices were for the wrong self gratifying reasons, and not to glorify God, and therefore sin. People freely choose but their choices are always sinful and wrongly motivated.
 
D

Dave L

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Why would He create them without any real choices at all?
He didn't. But he created them knowing they would sin, therefore making sin inevitable, based on his perfect knowledge. He would not have perfect knowledge if they didn't sin.