Calvinism is a Cult

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Mjh29

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You are called upon to surrender to the work that He desires to do in your heart.

Proverbs 21:1 -- The King's heart is in the hand of the LORD; as the rivers of water: He turneth it withersoever He will.
 

Mjh29

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I would quote it like this:

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Exactly. I emphasize God's power, you emphasize your own. The next verse says this because God knew that people would try to twist this verse to say "Oh, I have to do something!", When salvation is of the Lord, not man's choice.
 
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justbyfaith

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What I am saying is taking a verse expressly said to be about God's chosen people and applying it to all mankind is misrepresenting God and twisting His words.
Then perhaps, over half of what the scripture teaches is not applicable to everyone.

Have fun searching out and determining by your own wisdom what is applicable to you.
 

Mjh29

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Then perhaps, over half of what the scripture teaches is not applicable to everyone.

Have fun searching out and determining by your own wisdom what is applicable to you.

See, this is actually correct! Though, it is never ever by MY wisdom, but the Spirits guidance that allows us to understand the Scriptures. But you are right; the Scriptures were written for the Church; for the elect of God. For HIS people. Therefore, it's contents is addressed to them, not each and every person ever. Though the message of the Gospel should be shared, the vast majority of the Scriptures were written to the Church.

But no, not by my wisdom.... though I do enjoy reading the whole of Scripture.... you should try it. Maybe then you would be a little more apprehensive yanking verses out of context to appease what you think God should be.
 
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friend of

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I just don't understand how Irresistible Grace is compatible with free will.

If the Grace is Irresistible, then we do not have a choice. We are automatons.

Calvinists change and ignore the definition of words in order to have their doctrines work.
 

justbyfaith

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Proverbs 21:1 -- The King's heart is in the hand of the LORD; as the rivers of water: He turneth it whithersoever He will.

For one thing, this is talking about the direction of government and the fact that the government is on Jesus' shoulders; it is not saying that God controls everyone like a puppet and that we have no choice in any matter. If I can choose what type of jam I wanted on my toast this morning, I can choose, when the opportunity presents itself, whether I will receive or reject Christ as my Lord and Saviour. And I am humanly responsible for the choice that I make.

If God makes that decision for me, then I am not humanly responsible.

However, scripture is clear that every man has a free choice in the matter. Now is the accepted time in which He will succour you.

Exactly. I emphasize God's power, you emphasize your own. The next verse says this because God knew that people would try to twist this verse to say "Oh, I have to do something!", When salvation is of the Lord, not man's choice.

What it is is that you deemphasize human responsibility; and this turns the god that you believe in into a Cosmic Monster who purposefully puts people in the lake of fire out of his good pleasure.
 

justbyfaith

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But no, not by my wisdom.... though I do enjoy reading the whole of Scripture.... you should try it.

See, being condescending as you are being to me right now is characteristic of your ilk. I do not have to defend my reputation as one who reads an extensive amount of scripture on a daily basis with a view to receiving more than the whole counsel of God about two times a year. (I read through Genesis-Deuteronomy and Isaiah-Daniel about twice a year and everything else more extensively).

See, this is actually correct!

No, it is incorrect. It means that the average person cannot know what is applicable to him when he reads the Bible. My God is not like that. He has made His message abundantly clear so that salvation can be given to as many as will receive it. My God calls on the sinner to reason with Him.

I just don't understand how Irresistible Grace is compatible with free will.

If the Grace is Irresistible, then we do not have a choice. We are automatons.

Calvinists change and ignore the definition of words in order to have their doctrines work.

Irresistible Grace is incompatible with scripture.

Acts 7:51, Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

This applies twofold: not only does it refute Calvinism but it declares the heart of the Calvinist.
 
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Mjh29

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See, being condescending as you are being to me right now is characteristic of your ilk. I do not have to defend my reputation as one who reads an extensive amount of scripture on a daily basis.

No, not condescending. It was a genuine suggestion. I do not doubt that you read the Scriptures... I just suggest reading them as a whole rather than cherry picking.

No, it is incorrect. It means that the average person cannot know what is applicable to him when he reads the Bible. My God is not like that. He has made His message abundantly clear so that salvation can be given to as many as will receive it. My God calls on the sinner to reason with Him.

1 Corinthians 2:14 -- But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Then your God is not the God of Scripture. Only with the enlightenment of the Spirit can we understand the Scriptures.


Acts 7:51, Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

This applies twofold: not only does it refute Calvinism but it declares the heart of the Calvinist.

Read to whom Paul is speaking. It is to those who are already Christians, already the people of God, telling them to weed out these sinful desires from their hearts for more and more things. They were basically asking what they would get in Heaven, and Paul is telling them they have a long way to go.
 
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Mjh29

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For one thing, this is talking about the direction of government and the fact that the government is on Jesus' shoulders; it is not saying that God controls everyone like a puppet and that we have no choice in any matter. If I can choose what type of jam I wanted on my toast this morning, I can choose, when the opportunity presents itself, whether I will receive or reject Christ as my Lord and Saviour. And I am humanly responsible for the choice that I make.

If God makes that decision for me, then I am not humanly responsible.

However, scripture is clear that every man has a free choice in the matter. Now is the accepted time in which He will succour you.

1.) No, he is not speaking of Jesus.
Proverbs 20:24 -- Man's goings are of the Lord; how can a man then understand his own way?
2.) This reduces salvation to merely another choice I make in life. Who really holds the power, then? I can choose to say "..... meh. I don't want any of this Christianity junk anymore." and walk away. Or, better yet; cheat the system! Why accept now? Why not wait until my deathbed, and live my life as sinfully as I want right now?
3.) That is free agency, and yes men do have free agency. We are free to make choices in God's world, but salvation is not a mere choice; it is not some meaningless thing that we do and go on our merry way.
4.) You are still humanly responsible! Men sinned, not God! You make it like God owes everyone a chance to be saved, otherwise He is unjust! On what grounds does God owe anyone anything? On what grounds is God your debtor?
5.) The Scriptures say that man is blind, that He cannot discern spiritual matters, that man's heart is in God's hand, that we are deceitful and desperately wicked, and that we are children of Satan and do his bidding. This does not sound like a "free" person in any sense of the word.
 
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justbyfaith

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I just suggest reading them as a whole rather than cherry picking.

This is what I do. I also let the Holy Spirit illuminate verses and what they mean as I come across them in their context. Taking individual verses as authoritative as they exist in their context; and in my comprehension of them the context never contradicts the plain meaning of the individual scripture verses.

1 Corinthians 2:14 -- But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Then your God is not the God of Scripture. Only with the enlightenment of the Spirit can we understand the Scriptures.

This is talking about the unwillingness of man to receive the things of the Spirit of the Lord...he considers those things to be foolishness because he doesn't want to believe them. Now of course in the latter part of this scripture it becomes clear that the scriptures are spiritually discerned..however this does not mean that the Lord is incapable of speaking to a man via his opening the Bible and reading it.

Read to whom Paul is speaking. It is to those who are already Christians, already the people of God, telling them to weed out these sinful desires from their hearts for more and more things. They were basically asking what they would get in Heaven, and Paul is telling them they have a long way to go.

Are you looking at the same scripture passage even? The statement in Acts 7:51 was given by Stephen the church's first martyr, and it was directed at the Hellenists that were opposing themselves as Stephen ministered to them.
 

Mjh29

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How is man still humanly responsible if he cannot make the decision to receive or reject Christ but your god makes that choice for him?



Speak for yourself.

Because Adam was the representative head of our race, and made the free will choice for us. Now, we are in bondage to sin and Satan unless God sets us free.

Speak for myself? I may be condescending, but at least I'm not hypocritical.
 
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mjrhealth

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Indeed, Luke 8:13 shows a person who believes for a while and then falls away.

However, John 6:47 tells us that whosoever believes on Jesus has everlasting life.

How do they have everlasting life if they fell away?

There are two options:

1) Falling away does not constitute losing the spiritual life that the Lord imparts. I reject this because it is preposterous.

2) There are two types of faith spoken of in scripture identified by the same word. One is a shallow, lukewarm, or nominal faith that can be identified as mere mental assent to the tenets of the gospel. With such a faith, a person can fall away; and such a faith is not unto heart righteousness (Romans 10:10 (kjv)). The second is a heart righteousness that endures to the end (Romans 10:10 (kjv), Matthew 10:22 (kjv), Hebrews 3:6 (kjv), Hebrews 3:14 (kjv))
What has that to do with the elect..
 

justbyfaith

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Because Adam was the representative head of our race, and made the free will choice for us. Now, we are in bondage to sin and Satan unless God sets us free.

Speak for myself? I may be condescending, but at least I'm not hypocritical.

Yet you implyingly point the finger at me as though I am the one being hypocritical.

The Lord has set me free; I don't know about you: you seem to be wanting to say that He has not done so with you.

So, I say, speak for yourself.
 

Mjh29

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This is what I do. I also let the Holy Spirit illuminate verses and what they mean as I come across them in their context. Taking individual verses as authoritative as they exist in their context; and in my comprehension of them the context never contradicts the plain meaning of the individual scripture verses.

Matthew 5:38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’”
Just this verse. So, I should take vengence myself?

This is talking about the unwillingness of man to receive the things of the Spirit of the Lord...he considers those things to be foolishness because he doesn't want to believe them. Now of course in the latter part of this scripture it becomes clear that the scriptures are spiritually discerned..however this does not mean that the Lord is incapable of speaking to a man via his opening the Bible and reading it.

That's not what the verse says. At all. It says he cannot, not that he will not. If a blind man tells you he cannot see, is he blind because he doesn't really want to see? Exactly. the Lord speaks to a man, speaks to His heart, changes the heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh, eager to accept Him as savior.

Are you looking at the same scripture passage even? The statement in Acts 7:51 was given by Stephen the church's first martyr, and it was directed at the Hellenists that were opposing themselves as Stephen ministered to them.

I was actually turned to the wrong chapter, my apologies. Regardless, this passage speaks of man's total depravity; these men will refuse Christ until the day they die unless He changes their wills. I have not problem saying that people reject the general calling; men do this all the time.
 
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mjrhealth

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I think you are confusing who the elect are and those that are saved... All those who believe, have eternal life, but many will go though the tribulation, the Eelect are those who alone follow Christ, and who will not Die.. Just being a believer does not make one His elect..
 
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CoreIssue

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I was actually turned to the wrong chapter, my apologies. Regardless, this passage speaks of man's total depravity; these men will refuse Christ until the day they die unless He changes their wills. I have not problem saying that people reject the general calling; men do this all the time.

No it does not. It is only addressed to the Jews and they are hardhearted which is addressed numerous times in the Bible.

There is nothing Calvinistic in it.

51 “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!
 
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Nancy

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The doctrine of election proves the power of the blood of the Lamb my Sister. Without His shed blood, the elect would not be saved.

I noticed you posted, in a roundabout way, 2 Peter 3:9. You have took one verse and extrapolated it from the rest of the text. First off, that is addressed to believers, and not unbelievers. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.[2 Peter 3:9] Notice in that verse these two words 'toward you'. Peter is addressing the elect of God, not all mankind en toto.

Also, the bible is God-breathed 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.[2 Timothy 3] Inspired by God is also written God-breathed in other versions. Whatever the writer wrote under the Spirit's inspiration is the same as if the Christ had spoken it. Why do I say this? What Peter wrote we can also see the Christ saying the same thing about not desiring any perish.

12 “What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? 13 If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray. 14 So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.[Matthew 18]

God is not desiring any of His sheep perish, as Peter wrote and the Christ spoke.

I respect your position on this doctrine. It is something I have prayed about for decades and still, my spirit is not at peace with it. To me, it was a stumbling block during the 90's. I walked away because I thought I just was not saved. Never once did a day go by that in some way I sought The Lord. going on 5 years now, I have been back to serving Him and worshipping Him and, I now finally have that "peace that surpasses all understanding" He gives me the confidence that I am saved, because He said so.
So, in hindsight, I should not even be posting on this thread, I told myself that I would avoid it. lol...but I broke my own promise to myself!
God Bless!
nancy