Anthony D'Arienzo
Well-Known Member
Salvation while planned in eternity past, happens in real time through God-ordained means
Calvinism is a Cult
- Thread starter CoreIssue
- Start date
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Funny! It's in this very thread that I stated coreissue libels us, and jbf says he hasn't seen the thread. Yet he's been posting in it, agreeing with it and doing the same himself in this very self same thread! "What thread, I never saw it?" Come on! Lol!!!!!
Obviously don't know the meaning of libel anymore than you know what the Bible teaches about freewill and repentance.
There is an alternate interpretation that you have missed, which I have given within the course of this thread. But I am not going to repeat it here in obedience to what it says in Matthew 7:5-6.
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
Nope, you're doing it. All I've done is call out the lies. You overlook those who've done it, then attempted feebly to make it look like I was attacking others.
Nope.
I called out others (and you're one of them.) Huge difference. No need to make me do it again is there? Up to you.
And how do they come to know? By the free will action of repentance by faith through grace in the Lord Jesus Christ.
As Romans 8 says those who love God will be predestined by God all the way to salvation.
It does not say those that are predestined will love God.
It is the characteristic of the unregenerated person that they are in denial of their own sin when called out on it. You have three fingers pointing back at you; there is a beam in your own eye. Take that out before you try to remove the speck out of mine.
From the noise the colonists are now making, if a person predestined for salvation doesn't repent they they go to hell.
More the Calvinists speak the more they trip over their own tongues.
More the Calvinists speak the more they trip over their own tongues.
SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
That’s not my point. Please stop being obtuse and address my post. I showed what the word draw means in the original language it was penned in. To draw someone means to literally drag them. This means when the Christ draws them, He effectually draws them.
SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
Again my friend, the lost person in enslaved to sin, meaning his will is also bound in sin as well.
31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” 33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?”
34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. 35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. 36 So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
Everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. Paul also affirms this 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin.[Romans 6] And also 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.[Romans 6] Even after we are saved we are still slaves, slaves to the Christ and His imputed righteousness.
SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.[John 6]
Notice how He said those the Father gave Him will come. He draws, they come.
SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
My friend, there is no alternate interpretation to this. I gave you the meaning of ‘draw’ in its original language and all it entails.
SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
“God Himself supplies the necessary condition to come to Jesus. That’s why it is sola gratia, by grace alone, that we are saved.” - R.C. Sproul
When the Father draws a man to Christ, he is enabled to make a decision either for or against Christ that is unhindered by the world, the flesh, and/or the devil.
When a man makes his decision in favour of Christ, that is when the Father gives him to Jesus.
The Father drawing a man to Christ does not guarantee his salvation. The Father giving a man to Christ does.
Therefore, if you look at both John 6:37 and John 6:44:
Jhn 6:37, All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Jhn 6:44, No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
It should be clear that the Father must draw a man for him to be able to come to Christ; in which God says,
2Co 6:1, We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2Co 6:2, (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
But that when the Father gives a man to Christ from before the foundations of the world, seeing with foreknowledge that man's choice and predestinating him to that choice, that the same man shall come to Christ; and that whosoever shall come to Christ has been given to Him by the Father, and that Christ will in no wise cast him out.
Whereas, I find that, in the implications of Calvinism, that a man may not be predestinated according to that doctrine; and that even if that man comes to Christ he will not be saved because he was not predestined and therefore not of the elect; and therefore Christ rejects him and casts him out of the kingdom though he took the step that was prescribed for entering the kingdom, which was to call upon His name; and thus another promise of the Lord is effectively nullified, that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Romans 10:13.
In response to a certain statement that has been made I will say that if there are six verses in the Bible that effectively refute a doctrine and there are seventeen others that seem to substantiate it, that the six verses that effectively refute it make that doctrine unacceptable and unsound. One might attempt to preach Universalism from a specific verse, but if there is another verse that effectively refutes Universalism (and there are a few that do), then the verse that seems to substantiate it must be reexamined since it cannot mean that Universalism is the reality because that doctrine is refuted elsewhere in the holy scriptures.
The "him" (in John 6:44) whom Jesus will raise up on the last day, in context, is the person who comes to Jesus; not necessarily the person whom the Father draws to Jesus in every case.
Just a point to be made, that righteousness in the New Testament is not only imputed, it is also imparted, Matthew 5:6, Romans 5:19, 1 John 3:7, practical imparted righteousness is a free gift, Romans 5:17 and context.
Again, the Father drawing a man to Christ and the Father giving a man to Christ are two different things. God draws all men to Himself, but not all men come. Adam and Eve had a choice in the garden, the Israelites had a choice with Joshua and with Moses (Joshua 24:15 and Deuteronomy 30:19) and with Ezekiel (Ezekiel 18:30-32) and perhaps also with other prophets (definitely with the LORD), and we have a choice with Christ (John 1:12).
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Every amateur Greek scholar thinks he knows what the Bible really says.
I feel that I can trust the Lord to give me His unadulterated message in my own language in the Bible that I have chosen to read (the king james version). A separate issue is that certain other translations are watered-down and therefore less trustworthy in my sight.
But the primary issue being that the Lord is not going to steer me wrong when I read my Bible in abject English, trusting that He can speak to me through it.
There are basically two passages that warn us against the depravity of arguing about words:
1Ti 6:3, If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
1Ti 6:4, He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
1Ti 6:5, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
2Ti 2:14, Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
2Ti 2:15, Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
1Ti 6:3, If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
1Ti 6:4, He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
1Ti 6:5, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
2Ti 2:14, Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
2Ti 2:15, Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
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Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
Exactly, and I've shown you a multitude of passages that show why and that the above is true, but you'll have none of that Scripture correcting you. No man is free in any capacity outside of Christ; John 8:36. You say the opposite of Christ himself. Should we guess who is correct?
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
All you're showing is you don't know what irresistible grace teaches. Then you attack your straw man and pronounce yourself the winner. Of something.
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