Calvinism is a Cult

Preacher4Truth said:

I am a sinner, that's for certain, yet I hope I never go around making unsubstantiated accusations on other believers. It appears many do this and don't bat an eye. Then these avoid others who ask them to prove their claims.

Unfortunately @farouk has joined them. I've made several requests for substantiation and he's played it off. Then keeps making them over and again.

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Ditto to my post, above.

Lady Crosstalk,

Hello LC,
[The entire thrust of the Bible--both the OT and the NT exhorts the inhabitants of the earth to have faith in God

Much of the message exhorts men to seek the Lord while He may be found.God has a plan and purpose to restore both peace and rest to a multitude of rebellious sinners.

[Why would the Holy Spirit inspire that if it was impossible for some and already a "done deal" for others?]
LC, God has an eternal purpose that He has revealed to the church;
eph3;
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

As part of this eternal purpose, he constantly extends mercy to sinners using the means of preaching and teaching. Church grow and spread, the gospel goes out, missionaries and church planters go out and labor.
God has told the church he has a multitude of sheep that must be found using these means'
Look how Jesus spoke to Paul;
Acts 18:
9 Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:

10 For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.

He did not say all the people, but he told Him I have much people. Paul who wrote about election and predestination still went and preached and taught, even though he knew it was in God's control.

[Calvinism makes no sense at a very basic level.]

Maybe you would consider re-thinking your statement

farouk said:

I try, Sir, to be an encourager and a challenger from Scripture. I try not to be an arguer; respectfully I decline to argue at length with you, Sir.

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You've done neither in your offering of false accusations. Now you want to shade me as arguing. Nice!

So "arguing" is asking you to substantiate your accusations? And your avoidance to provide proof of your assertions is proper?

Hmmmm. Ok. My apologies for asking a Christian to prove his accusations.

I'll just let you make false claims and won't bother you for evidence or proof. Have a good evening.

Preacher4Truth said:

You've done neither in your offering of false accusations. Now you want to shade me as arguing. Nice!

So "arguing" is asking you to substantiate your accusations? And your avoidance to provide proof of your assertions is proper?

Hmmmm. Ok. My apologies for asking a Christian to prove his accusations.

I'll just let you make false claims and won't bother you for evidence or proof. Have a good evening.

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Sir, I don't know what false claims you are talking about. Frankly, I don't.

"justbyfaith,

[A better scripture to use to proclaim the love of the Lord for sinners is:

Rom 5:8, But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

In this, it says that God loves the sinner; and therefore if there is another verse that says that He hates the sinner, I would conclude that God has a love/hate relationship with sinners.]
.
.I know people like to just pick a verse and go with it JBF. Can i suggest something here. There is another way to understand this passage.
God does not love all sinners savingly. let's take a look at what is being taught here. The passage is speaking to justified believers, not the unsaved. I will highlight in red what is spoken to us

.
Romans 5 King James Version (KJV)
5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

These highlighted portions are not written to the unsaved.

now we can look at part two

Preacher4Truth said:

That's a huge exaggeration and isn't remotely true.

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As usual, as soon as anyone attacks their precious doctrine, Calvinists show up with rude, condescending attitudes and imperious demands. *sigh* There are plentiful examples in the witness of Scripture but, here are some from the OT and the NT. If you insist, I will provide more but even God only require two or three witnesses to convict someone of a crime (Deuteronomy 19:15).

OT: Proverbs 3:5 "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding."

Isaiah 12:2 "Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and will not be afraid; for the Lord God is my strength and my song, and He has become my salvation.”

Isaiah 7:9 "And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is the son of Remaliah. If you are not firm in faith, you will not be firm at all." The NLT is even more to the point: "Unless your faith is firm, I cannot make you stand firm."

NT: Matthew 21:21 "And Jesus answered them, 'Truly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what has been done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and thrown into the sea,’ it will happen."

Romans 10:17 "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ."

Hebrews 11:6 "And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who seek him."

John 1:22 "But to all who did receive him, who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God..."

Mark 11:22 "And Jesus answered them, 'Have faith in God'."

There are many more--especially in the NT.

@farouk, again, my bad. All my fault bro. We all should have been aware that asking believers to substantiate their claims is a futile effort and plain wrong. We should have also known to do so would result in the person being called argumentative, receiving some shade at their expense.

In addition it's apparent that avoiding providing evidence after accusing others of unbiblical practices is no longer bearing false witness.

I have lots to learn about these new Christian ethics I'm witnessing.

farouk said:

I agree about the call to faith, yes. The term Calvinism can actually be defined in many - even contradictory -ways. Many Calvinists down the centuries have actually believed in the free offer of the Gospel.

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I guess I'm referring to what is known as "New Calvinism". I have never encountered anyone who described himself (and invariably it is a man) as a New Calvinist who wasn't the most insufferably arrogant individual I have met inside or outside of the Church.

Preacher4Truth said:

@farouk, again, my bad. All my fault bro. We all should have been aware that asking believers to substantiate their claims is a futile effort and plain wrong. We should have also known to do so would result in the person being called argumentative, receiving some shade at their expense.

In addition it's apparent that avoiding providing evidence after accusing others if unbiblical practices is no longer bearing false witness.

I have lots to learn about these new Christian ethics I'm witnessing.

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Sir, I don't know what false claims you are talking about. Frankly, I don't.

Preacher4Truth said:

@farouk, again, my bad. All my fault bro. We all should have been aware that asking believers to substantiate their claims is a futile effort and plain wrong. We should have also known to do so would result in the person being called argumentative, receiving some shade at their expense.

In addition it's apparent that avoiding providing evidence after accusing others if unbiblical practices is no longer bearing false witness.

I have lots to learn about these new Christian ethics I'm witnessing.

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Sarcasm is NOT a becoming look for a humble servant of Christ.

Lady Crosstalk said:

I guess I'm referring to what is known as "New Calvinism". I have never encountered anyone who described himself (and invariably it is a man) as a New Calvinist who wasn't the most insufferably arrogant individual I have met inside or outside of the Church.

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I like the idea of the humble bondservant with a pierced ear.

Lady Crosstalk said:

John 1:22 "But to all who did receive him, who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God..."

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firstly, I believe that you meant to say John 1:12 , and in reply to this I would say to read the next verse, John 1:13

As to the rest of the post, the problem with this type of thinking is that it approaches the Scriptures from the wrong angle; you are looking at these verses as though they were written to the unregenerate, when in reality the vast majority of the Bible was written to the believers; those who are either effected by are are being effected by the Spirit. This is why the Bible says that it is "foolishness" to those without the Spirit. Those verses were written to believers, not unregenerate.

Lady Crosstalk said:

As usual, as soon as anyone attacks their precious doctrine, Calvinists show up with rude, condescending attitudes and imperious demands. *sigh* There are plentiful examples in the witness of Scripture but, here are some from the OT and the NT. If you insist, I will provide more but even God only require two or three witnesses to convict someone of a crime (Deuteronomy 19:15).

OT: Proverbs 3:5 "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding."

Isaiah 12:2 "Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and will not be afraid; for the Lord God is my strength and my song, and He has become my salvation.”

Isaiah 7:9 "And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is the son of Remaliah. If you are not firm in faith, you will not be firm at all." The NLT is even more to the point: "Unless your faith is firm, I cannot make you stand firm."

NT: Matthew 21:21 "And Jesus answered them, 'Truly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what has been done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and thrown into the sea,’ it will happen."

Romans 10:17 "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ."

Hebrews 11:6 "And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who seek him."

John 1:22 "But to all who did receive him, who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God..."

Mark 11:22 "And Jesus answered them, 'Have faith in God'."

There are many more--especially in the NT.

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The above is what is rude. "Hey, don't you dare ask me to prove my accusations, or you're rude! And I'll call you names too, you and your precious doctrine!!!." Lol!!!

Look at your behavior, unreal. All for showing your error, over simplifications, false assumptions and asking for proof.

Well, carry on. You're not here to speak truth, you're here to make statements and go unchallenged. Challenge you and you go in a callow and fleshly rant.

JBF,
[The anti-Calvinist view is not one of self-righteousness. It simply states that God will not impose it on you to]

If He does not make us willing, we would never come to Him savingly.

[ receive and live according to His love against your will. He invites every man to receive Him, and thus His love into their hearts.]
There are multitudes who were never invited

[The righteousness that results is not of the man who receives it by any means: it is the love of the Lord shed abroad in the heart (Romans 5:5).]

Correct...notice the Holy Spirit gives the new heart so we can welcome God's love. The Holy Spirit does not quicken everyone

[Because living according to love requires self-sacrifice, God will not impose His love on anyone.]
What verse supports this idea? Did Nebuchadnezzar like the taste of grass so he voluntarily just wanted to graze like an animal?

[You must consider it to be noble and thus desire it for yourself regardless of the cost.]
Sinners do not do this on their own



[The fact that we are born of God (John 1:13) in no way contradicts the fact that we must receive Him to be born again. You are pitting John 1:13 against John 1:12 when you should be seeking to harmonize these verses. It seems that you think that John 1:13 completely nullifies the reality of John 1:12. And this is not sound hermeneutics.]

unsound hermeneutics is to read the passage backward. The passage explains why they received Him...it was not anything they did by their will....it was ALL of God. Thanks for the good questions

Preacher4Truth said:

The above is what is rude. "Hey, don't you dare ask me to prove my accusations, or you're rude! And I'll call you names too, you and your precious doctrine!!!." Lol!!!

Look at your behavior, unreal. All for showing your error, over simplifications, false assumotions and for ask for proof.

Well, carry on. You're not here to speak truth, you're here to make statements and go unchallenged. Challenge you and you go in a callow and fleshly rant.

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I DID provide evidence (there is no such thing as proof in spite of being called "proof texts"). There is merely evidence that prompts a particular point of view. I choose not to argue with you--you are quite obviously ill-tempered. If you are, indeed, a pastor, I suggest you cultivate a more humble demeanor.

Lady Crosstalk said:

I DID provide evidence (there is no such thing as proof in spite of being called "proof texts"). There is merely evidence that prompts a particular point of view. I choose not to argue with you--you are quite obviously ill-tempered. If you are, indeed, a pastor, I suggest you cultivate a more humble demeanor.

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My fault for asking you to substantiate your claims.

You should go unchallenged, I should have known this would set you off and should have known how highly respected you are, and should have known my place under you.

I deserve to be called names, to be ridiculed, to be mocked, and then jeered over my beliefs for doing so. Please forgive me for being so arrogant in asking you to provide evidence of your statements, and for challenging your conclusions and assumptions.

Preacher4Truth said:

My fault for asking you to substantiate your claims.

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Pssst--here's another one: John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."

Lady Crosstalk said:

John 3:16 is not a contradiction of Psalms 5:5 even though it might appear to be one at first glance. In the original language, the word used for "world" in John 3:16 is from the Greek cosmos. We normally think of the "world" as our planet, earth. Not so, in the word-choice of cosmos. The surface meaning is "universe," but the underlying meaning is one of "order". God loves the order He established in the universe He created. At the same time, He hates chaos which also has more meaning, in the original Greek, than our superficial understanding. All evildoers are agents of chaos, as is their master, Satan--the ultimate agent of chaos. God hates chaos and all who desire to cause it. He sent His Son to reconcile those who believe, to the proper order of the universe in Him. He will send His Son a second time to temporarily renew much of the order in the physical realm during the Millennial Reign (in the words of Isaiah 65:20, only sinners will die as young as 100 years old). During that period, the chaos-maker, Satan, will be bound. At the end of the 1,000 years, he will be loosed to deceive the nations once again. But the life-giving Son of God will destroy Satan and all of his works at the very End. And Heaven will come to earth--never to leave.

On the other hand, when God moves to judge the "world" as in Revelation 3:10, a different Greek word is used--oikoumenes. In this instance, "world" refers to the Beast-following inhabitants of the earth.

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Sooooo, God loves order and hates chaos? So then she doesn’t love everybody and hates no one? This post makes zero sense.

farouk said:

I don't know why ppl keep looking at the Bible for supposed contradictions; what various perspectives do, in fact, is present the glorious body of Divine truth from various angles.

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There are no contradictions in the Bible, but many ppl on here have beliefs that pit scripture against scripture. I am not showing contradictions in the Bible but in their theology my friend.

farouk said:

Some Hyper-Calvinists don't believe in the free offer of the Gospel.

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But we’re not hypers my friend. Please don’t lump us with them.