When to look for the rapture of the church

Question,Why from the below?

Ephesians 6:11 "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil."

Why would you need this if you not gonna be here?

Please understand satan and his angels are coming to this earth live and in person

Seal or the mark,you will have one or the other

farouk said:

Good to distinguish indeed the rapture (linked with the church) and the day of the Lord linked with wrath on the earth.

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Christ's 2nd coming, His gathering of His Church, His wrath upon the wicked on earth, God's consuming fire on the day of the Lord, the mountains and hills shaking out of their place, the battle of Armageddon, the change at the twinkling of an eye, the resurrection, it all happens on the same last day, likely within one hour.

Christ's second coming has specific features involving the earth, i.e., Jesus descends to the Mount of Olives, brings His elect Church with Him, His reign with His elect begins in Jerusalem on earth. The saints that are "caught up" to Him is when He descends to this earth. Apostle Paul said He will bring the asleep saints with Him, which means they resurrect and He gathers them with Him on His return to earth. Acts 1 said He will return in like manner how He ascended to Heaven.

CoreIssue said:

You said before you sure about the rapture posted against it.

But if you changed, good.

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I am unsure of which 'before' you are speaking of, as my opinion of the Rapture has not changed. I believe the bible clearly speaks of one, I just disagree on the timing of it.

I've always post proves what I believe in you just keep rejecting them be the rapture, tribulation or MK.

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Um...forgetting that I'm struggling to make grammatical sense of that sentence, I think I could prove you wrong. I think I could count on one hand the number of times you have provided scriptural proof when I've asked for it. And I have, over and over. I have asked, almost begged, for you to present your Dispensational views with careful scriptural exegesis and verses tracking the thoughts...and yet, nope.
So...sure...whatever. Think that if you like, but if push came to shove, I can always go back over all the threads and find ALL the times I've asked for the scriptures, and you've dodged.

You may think your arguments are irrational and first backed but I don't.

Versus have to be read literally, not figuratively.

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Are you perhaps typing this at 3 in the morning while half asleep? Because your words are not going together as words normally should.
Firstly...no, I don't think my arguments are irrational...that in itself would be irrational.
As to what you think...this is one of the reasons why it is so important to provide bible verses along with your presented view. It should not just be our opinion, but how we read scripture...backed by the scripture itself. Anyone can parrot a view or spout an opinion. But when we present scripture, yes, we still have differences of opinions on it, but at least we can have a starting point and see that our desire is to remain true to God's word above anything else.

Well...You know what would be nice, in reading verses? Actually having the verses. You criticise me for my "figurative" take, even though I take the time to show biblical precedence and how I arrived where I am through other verses that support my view, and then all you do to support that criticism is give me your opinion and how everything must be read 'literally'. Really? Even though Dispensationalists themselves will lapse into figurative when they need to. Even when reading 'literally' forces bizarre interpretations upon texts that earns the mockery of scholars (hello Hal Lindsey and Heuy Helecopters). All backed up, by the way, with nothing by say so.
So, hmmm, call me unconvinced, and unconcerned with your argument.

Davy said:

There's no Biblical proof that Christ's "thousand years" reign of Rev.20 is at any other time than right after the time of "great tribulation" He foretold. His coming to gather the Church will end the wicked's reign on earth, and start His "thousand years" literal reign with His elect, on earth.

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I would disagree with that, I think there is ample proof. I can give them if you'd like.

Naomi25 said:

I would disagree with that, I think there is ample proof. I can give them if you'd like.

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I would like

Naomi25 said:

I would disagree with that, I think there is ample proof. I can give them if you'd like.

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You may try.

Naomi25 said:

I am unsure of which 'before' you are speaking of, as my opinion of the Rapture has not changed. I believe the bible clearly speaks of one, I just disagree on the timing of it.
starting point and see that our desire is to remain true to God's word above anything else.

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So what are you?
Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Pre-wrath, Post-Trib, Post MK?

CoreIssue said:

Medo Persia was two nations with two kings functioning together. ...

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The only instance of a dual reign which I'm aware of was during the Roman Empire:


If you have a citation for a dual reign during the Medo/Persian Empire, please share it, because the History books I use don't document such an occurrence:



Bobby Jo

Bobby Jo said:

The only instance of a dual reign which I'm aware of was during the Roman Empire:

46 - 31 BC both Julius Caesar Octavianus Augustus or Octavian and Marcus Antonius (Marc Antony)​

If you have a citation for a dual reign during the Medo/Persian Empire, please share it, because the History books I use don't document such an occurrence:

539 - 530 Cyrus the Great
530 - 522 Cambyses
522 - 486 Darius I (Hystaspes)
486 - 465 Xerxes
465 - 423 Artaxerxes I
423 Xerxes II - few weeks
423 Sogdianus - six months
423 - 404 Darius II
404 - 359 Artaxerxes II
359 - 338 Artaxerxes III (Ochus)
338 Arses
338 - 330 Darius III (Codomanus)​

Huot, Jean-Louis, Persia I - From the Origins to the Achaemenids, World Publishing Co., NY, 1965-67, pp. 12, 153-156
Durant, Will, Story of Civilization: Part I, Simon and Schuster, NY, 1954, pp 353-354, 381-382​

Bobby Jo

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6. The Medes And The Persians | Bible.org

CoreIssue said:

So what are you?
Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Pre-wrath, Post-Trib, Post MK?

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Taken said:

What do you believe the RAPTURE means?

And whom specifically do you believe that applies to?

And Why would it specifically Apply to some and not others?

And Where are "whatever is Raptured", "Raptured "TO"? <--- Place?

Being on the same page, regarding such questions...can thereafter make discussion of TIMING a meaningful discussion.

God Bless,
Taken

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As these questions are similar, I'll answer them together.

Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. -1 Corinthians 15:51–52

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. -1 Thessalonians 4:16–17

These two passages clearly teach a time when Jesus will descend from heaven with the sound of the trumpet, the dead in Christ will be raised first, then we who are left and alive will also meet the Lord in the air, and be changed...given our new imperishable bodies. The Rapture. So...the event itself is taught without doubt. The question is when.

The 1 Corinthians 15 passage tells us that this Rapture happens when the perishable puts on imperishable...when death is finally defeated:

When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
“O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?” -1 Corinthians 15:54–55

And it also tells us that once death is defeated, at Christ's return, he then delivers the kingdom to the Father:

But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. -1 Corinthians 15:23–26

Nowhere in this passage is there space for two 'comings', a 7 year Tribulation or even a millennial kingdom. The kingdom spoken of here that Christ rules over is the one we now have that he is even now putting all things under his feet. Thus, it is at his return that death is defeated and this verse can say 'for he must reign "until" he has put all his enemies under his feet...the last enemy is death. You cannot have a kingdom that comes after his return, but still having death within it. No...this passage teaches a chronological order: Kingdom now, his return signalling an end to death and to the Kingdom, which is given to the Father.

Thus, I suppose you could say I am Post-trib, Post-mil.

CoreIssue said:

6. The Medes And The Persians | Bible.org

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Puhhhhhhhhh, CI, you're a funny guy, I thought you were smart, but decreasing with every post.

So once again: PLEASE PROVIDE HISTORICAL EVIDENCE for your assertion that Cyrus had a co-ruler, or go home ...

BJ

n2thelight said:

I would like

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Davy said:

You may try.

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Ok, here I go!

So, I would start here:

For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. -1 Corinthians 15:21–26

Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
“O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?” -1 Corinthians 15:51–55

These two passages give us a look at the chronological layout of end time events. Basically, at Christ's return, death will be defeated and we will receive our new imperishable bodies. Because death is defeated, being the last enemy, Christ will then deliver the Kingdom to his Father. The point here is this: Christ's return doesn't start the Kingdom, which will be pretty darn good but not perfect because it's not the eternal state, but it 'ends the Kingdom'. It very clearly says that at his return...at the point where death is defeated an no more, Christ will have put every other enemy under his feet in this Kingdom, and so will hand it over to God.
A 'Millennial Kingdom' is made very difficult from this passage. And there are other verses in scripture that let us know that Jesus is even know ruling and reigning.

...that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all. -Ephesians 1:20–23


Back to the idea of Christ 'defeating death' at his return. This is sort of the achillies heel on the earthly Millennial issue, I believe...as well as a literal reading of Revelation in regards to the matter. Consider these verses:

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. -Revelation 20:11–15

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” -Revelation 21:3–4

Ok, basically...these things happen, 'chronologically' after Rev 20...after the 'Millennial Kingdom'. Death itself is thrown into the lake of fire. In other words, death itself is defeated...done away with. And we then see that death will be no more, it is a 'former' thing. And yet, 1 Cor 15 tells us that this event happens at Christ's return and at the Rapture of the church, when we receive our new, imperishable bodies.
How can all these things be at the same time? Unless....they're all at the same time. The return of Christ is a single event. The 'Millennial Kingdom' is now, as 1 Cor15 says. When Jesus returns, the Kingdom closes because Christ has defeated all his enemies, including death...proven by the fact that his people are Raptured and given immortal bodies like him.
2 Peter 3:10 also tells us that at Christ's return the existing heavens and earth will pass away with a roar and burn up. It's the new, eternal state being ushered in. Like I said...a single event.

That's a pretty shortened version behind the idea of 'Millennium now'...not even touching on Daniel and other verses (that gets super complicated!). But basically, it shows, I think, that there are questions that must be answered by those who believe in a time period that's coming after Christ returns. It doesn't seem to fit to me, with how many of these scriptures paint his return.

Bobby Jo said:

Puhhhhhhhhh, CI, you're a funny guy, I thought you were smart, but decreasing with every post.

So once again: PLEASE PROVIDE HISTORICAL EVIDENCE for your assertion that Cyrus had a co-ruler, or go home ...

BJ

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Read the link, it explains it.

CoreIssue said:

Read the link, it explains it.

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Yeah, I did. It's garbage, -- and doesn't provide your purported dual monarchy which you asserted. So how about you provide what you said, or accept what I provided, -- that there NEVER was a dual monarchy in the Medo/Persian Empire. And of course we could go further toward the TRUTH if you'd obey Dan. 2:45 which stipulates FIVE World Empires (4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE), and stop believing the nonsense that Daniel 2 FIVE = Daniel 7 FOUR.

Seriously, are you a thinking man, or did you shut your brain off when you were told to simply believe the LIES?!?


And by the way, Walvoord's expert Scholars refuted what Walvoord asserted. Read it for yourself:


I've virtually memorized portions of his book, especially his citations of Montgomery, Young, Keil, & Kliefoth. THEY'RE the HERO's of Scriptural Scholarship, -- not Walvoord.


BJ

Bobby Jo said:

Yeah, I did. It's garbage, -- and doesn't provide your purported dual monarchy which you asserted. So how about you provide what you said, or accept what I provided, -- that there NEVER was a dual monarch in the Medo/Persian Empire. And of course we could go further toward the TRUTH if you'd obey Dan. 2:45 which stipulates FIVE World Empires (4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE), and stop believing the nonsense that Daniel 2 FIVE = Daniel 7 FOUR.

Seriously, are you a thinking man, or did you shut your brain off when you were told to simply believe the LIES?!?


And by the way, Walvoord's expert Scholars refuted what Walvoord asserted. Read it for yourself:

John Walvoord, Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation, Moody Press, Chicago, 1971.​

I've virtually memorized portions of his book, especially his citations of Montgomery, Young, Keil, & Kliefoth. THEY'RE the HERO's of Scriptural Scholarship, -- not Walvoord.


BJ

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Let me rephrase, Persia and Mede were two distinct areas of Indo-Europe. Medes were Aryans. One area the other then the rule switched. That is why it's called Medo Persia.

Kind of like Great Britain is composed of England, Scotland and Ireland. But at times was ruled by English loyalty and other times Scottish royalty.

I lived there for a year and trust me it is a confusing relationship.

So biblically it is counted as two.

CoreIssue said:

Let me rephrase, Persia and Mede were two distinct areas ... So biblically it is counted as two.

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Is this a JOKE? Why are you telling a JOKE? It's not a funny JOKE. Please cease your JOKE.

Your imagination is NOT historical and it's not Scriptural. So stop with the JOKE. And it not "confusing". It's a lie on so many fronts that I can't believe you're insisting on such nonsense.

MANY things in life have a "dual aspect", and they're NOT TWO ITEMS. Me thinks that you've switched off your brain, and it's too bad. There's so much information from Scripture that GOD begs to share with HIS Children, but they're deaf, dumb, and blind.


BJ

Bobby Jo said:

Is this a JOKE? Why are you telling a JOKE? It's not a funny JOKE. Please cease your JOKE.

Your imagination is NOT historical and it's not Scriptural. So stop with the JOKE. And it not "confusing". It's a lie on so many fronts that I can't believe you're insisting on such nonsense.

MANY things in life have a "dual aspect", and they're NOT TWO ITEMS. Me thinks that you've switched off your brain, and it's too bad. There's so much information from Scripture that GOD begs to share with HIS Children, but they're deaf, dumb, and blind.


BJ

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Well think what you want. While I quoted was history you can find nothing biblical this is anything but Medo-Persia.

Your problem you don't know the meaning of the words.

CoreIssue said:

... While I quoted was history you can find nothing biblical this is anything but Medo-Persia.
Your problem you don't know the meaning of the words.

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Is there anything in your "response" which makes sense?

Perhaps your "agenda" is NOT history. You said:

CoreIssue said:

Medo Persia was two nations with two kings functioning together. ...

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HISTORY proved you wrong in BOTH your assertion, AND your citation of Walvoord, and somehow you STILL assert that "I don't know the meaning of the words."

I think it's you that needs to look up a term: "intellectual dishonesty".


We're done here. I'll just add your name to a growing list to IGNORE. -- All these christians, and very few Christians.

BJ

Bobby Jo said:

Is there anything in your "response" which makes sense?

Perhaps your "agenda" is NOT history. You said:



HISTORY proved you wrong in BOTH your assertion, AND your citation of Walvoord, and somehow you STILL assert that "I don't know the meaning of the words."

I think it's you that needs to look up a term: "intellectual dishonesty".


We're done here. I'll just add your name to a growing list to IGNORE. -- All these christians, and very few Christians.

BJ

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Answer this. How many kings existed under Roman rule?