Calvinism is a Cult

Preacher4Truth · Mar 4, 2019

Lady Crosstalk said:
Pssst--here's another one: John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."

That text doesn't substantiate your claims.

Brace yourself for this: Not one of your offered texts does so.

But I'm done here, no need to challenge you only to watch you melt, wax callow, attack and call names. Yep, you did all that because you were challenged. Not once have I called you names or ridiculed you.

You're so full of pride that to question you is to you calling you names and ridiculing you. How dare anyone. Right? Yep. Look at how you reacted.

Your works of the flesh and pride are at the forefront: you cannot accept being shown your errors. In your humility, of course.

Lady Crosstalk · Mar 4, 2019

Preacher4Truth said:
That text doesn't substantiate your claims.

Brace yourself for this: Not one of your offered texts does so.

But I'm done here, no need to challenge you only to watch you melt, wax callow, attack and call names. Yep, you did all that because you were challenged. Not once have I called you names or ridiculed you.

You're so full of pride that to question you is to you calling you names and ridiculing you. How dare anyone. Right? Yep. Look at how you reacted.

Your works of the flesh and pride are at the forefront: you cannot accept being shown your errors. In your humility, of course.

Everything you have accused here is obvious in your own posts. Good day to you. I have put you on ignore (along with others who have similar attitudes).

CoreIssue · Mar 4, 2019

Preacher4Truth said:
That text doesn't substantiate your claims.

Brace yourself for this: Not one of your offered texts does so.

But I'm done here, no need to challenge you only to watch you melt, wax callow, attack and call names. Yep, you did all that because you were challenged. Not once have I called you names or ridiculed you.

You're so full of pride that to question you is to you calling you names and ridiculing you. How dare anyone. Right? Yep. Look at how you reacted.

Your works of the flesh and pride are at the forefront: you cannot accept being shown your errors. In your humility, of course.

Brace yourself for this:
What she said was true you're the one not ready.

Calvinism is a cult.

Preacher4Truth · Mar 4, 2019

Some people you just put on ignore; Romans 16:17. I'm speaking of those who make false accusations, then call others names, among other unchristian remarks and behaviors, simply for asking for substantiation.

They're so humble, how dare any challenge them? And these are supposed to be Christian?

Jane_Doe22 · Mar 4, 2019

I

Laish said:
Ok focus like a laser beam. You started the thread about denominational beliefs so somehow you expect that it not be about denominational declarations ? Weird ...Also you do know that all of your responses are denominational declarations,right ? Your criticizing the very same thing you are doing.

You do know the two largest cults are Dispensational Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons.
So eschatology is a good place to go to prove your point . Also what do you mean by nonliteral Calvinist ? Please definition and example .
Blessings
Bill

I have learned that when a person goes out out of their way to attack another group vehemently (including with blind miseducation), they are very likely to also vehemently many other groups-- in fact anybody that is not their own thoughts. I find that this says much much more about the person doing the attacking rather than any of the groups.

Lady Crosstalk · Mar 4, 2019

SovereignGrace said:
Sooooo, God loves order and hates chaos? So then she doesn’t love everybody and hates no one? This post makes zero sense.

I was merely responding to your assertion that there is an apparent contradiction between John 3:16 and Psalms 5:5. I'm sure you can figure out my response, if you try. By the way, God the Father is Spirit and does not have a human body. Therefore, no gender. And we know that God the Son does have the body of an immortal human male (hint: Scripture calls Him, "He, Him,") Therefore, male. Some have advanced the notion that God, the Holy Spirit is female but, in that case, He doesn't know it because He inspired the Scriptures that refer to Him as "He". Therefore, God is not a "she" as you have stated. Goodnight.

justbyfaith · Mar 4, 2019

I think I will put @Preacher4Truth on ignore also: time to let these blind Calvinists be leaders of other blind Calvinists: and both shall fall into a ditch.

Laish · Mar 5, 2019

farouk said:
While I think that some insights of Reformed theology are interesting and maybe even valid sometimes, what disturbs me is that often appeal is not to Scripture but to schemes of logic.

Hello Farouk
I do agree my address is to thoughts of logic . It’s not directed to his theology but to his reasoning as to why he draws his conclusions.
This helps in a fair exchange of ideas. Having a proces where both sides get a hearing and each gets a answer. I know everything may not be agreed upon still others reading can decide things for themselves .

Now about the way we address scripture
I can only give you insight in to how I approach the Scriptures .
As with most Reformed folks see the totally of Scripture as one yes many books written over a long period of time and is still one complete testimony . We don’t see it as somthing assembled in a piecemeal fashion. It is the inerrant Word of God . Looking at everything I seek a better understanding of God . I take notes when I see the same subject addressed in two different ways I have to reconcile the two . That is going to require logic . Still the logic is directed to towards scripture.
Look below concerning how scripture is used.

2nd Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

Joshua 1:8 This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success.

Notice it requires thought and I believe it must be logical .
Can we as humans make it seem overly logical . Probably , yet to take all the scriptures and not reconcile what may seem as a contradiction at first is it to do damage to the word .
Do you fallow what I am saying?
If ya have any more questions cool shoot .
I hope this explains some of it .
Blessings
Bill

farouk · Mar 5, 2019

Laish said:
Hello Farouk
I do agree my address is to thoughts of logic . It’s not directed to his theology but to his reasoning as to why he draws his conclusions.
This helps in a fair exchange of ideas. Having a proces where both sides get a hearing and each gets a answer. I know everything may not be agreed upon still others reading can decide things for themselves .

Now about the way we address scripture
I can only give you insight in to how I approach the Scriptures .
As with most Reformed folks see the totally of Scripture as one yes many books written over a long period of time and is still one complete testimony . We don’t see it as somthing assembled in a piecemeal fashion. It is the inerrant Word of God . Looking at everything I seek a better understanding of God . I take notes when I see the same subject addressed in two different ways I have to reconcile the two . That is going to require logic . Still the logic is directed to towards scripture.
Look below concerning how scripture is used.

2nd Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

Joshua 1:8 This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success.

Notice it requires thought and I believe it must be logical .
Can we as humans make it seem overly logical . Probably , yet to take all the scriptures and not reconcile what may seem as a contradiction at first is it to do damage to the word .
Do you fallow what I am saying?
If ya have any more questions cool shoot .
I hope this explains some of it .
Blessings
Bill

I see what you are saying.

Wittgenstein said that the meaning of a word is seen in the way it is used. And I think you are using the word logic in a general sense; and certainly I don't disagree with what you are saying.

In the context of the history of ideas and historical theology, the word logic has also come to mean something rather more specific. In the Middle Ages, the Schoolmen - or Scholastic writers - were regarding as bringing their logical constructions to theological questions in a way that took precedence over Scripture. Then came the Renaissance and the Reformation - with the historical-grammatical method of doing contextual word studies in the manner of Erasmus and Valla, who were then followed by many of the Reformation preachers, for whom the Person and Work Christ was seen to shine forth gloriously, in contrast with the eccelsiastical traditions bolstered by Scholasticism in the preceding centuries.

But enter the Calvinists (not so much Calvin himself) and even Lutherans who tried to emulate the Medieval Scholastic writers in their way of doing theology; soon the appeal was again to logic - however appealing - rather than directly to Scripture itself.

And so when independent and Baptist (etc.) churches today conduct Bible studies, doing word studies according to Scripture context, they are - albeit distantly - doing the general sort of study that the Reformers and Erasmus did, rather than the way the Medieval Scholastics did and those in the Lutheran and Reformed camps have intermittently tried to do.

This background was behind my use of the word logic. I hope this helps explain what I meant.

Blessings.

SovereignGrace · Mar 5, 2019

Lady Crosstalk said:
I was merely responding to your assertion that there is an apparent contradiction between John 3:16 and Psalms 5:5. I'm sure you can figure out my response, if you try. By the way, God the Father is Spirit and does not have a human body. Therefore, no gender. And we know that God the Son does have the body of an immortal human male (hint: Scripture calls Him, "He, Him,") Therefore, male. Some have advanced the notion that God, the Holy Spirit is female but, in that case, He doesn't know it because He inspired the Scriptures that refer to Him as "He". Therefore, God is not a "she" as you have stated. Goodnight.

She was a faux pas, possibly a spellcheck from my iPad. I know my friend, God is Spirit. I know there are no contradictions found in our bibles.

Ppl don’t seem to realize how much God abhors sin. He hates it so much, that even when His Son stood before Him after He became sin[Romans 8:32 & 2 Corinthians 5:21], that in His holiness, He cut Him no slack, but treated Him as if you and I were standing there. And this should cause the lost to run to Him, seeing He cut His own Son no slack. If He cut Him no slack, what will He do to them? Yet this exposes their wicked hearts, and still don’t fear Him. Yea, they still refuse to believe the truth, living in open rebellion towards Him.

God does hate the wicked my Sister.[Psalms 5:5, Proverbs 6:16–19], and they are His His objects of wrath.[John 3:36, Romans 9:19ff, Ephesians 2:3]

SovereignGrace · Mar 5, 2019

Lady Crosstalk said:
John 3:16 is not a contradiction of Psalms 5:5 even though it might appear to be one at first glance. In the original language, the word used for "world" in John 3:16 is from the Greek cosmos. We normally think of the "world" as our planet, earth. Not so, in the word-choice of cosmos. The surface meaning is "universe," but the underlying meaning is one of "order". God loves the order He established in the universe He created. At the same time, He hates chaos which also has more meaning, in the original Greek, than our superficial understanding. All evildoers are agents of chaos, as is their master, Satan--the ultimate agent of chaos. God hates chaos and all who desire to cause it. He sent His Son to reconcile those who believe, to the proper order of the universe in Him. He will send His Son a second time to temporarily renew much of the order in the physical realm during the Millennial Reign (in the words of Isaiah 65:20, only sinners will die as young as 100 years old). During that period, the chaos-maker, Satan, will be bound. At the end of the 1,000 years, he will be loosed to deceive the nations once again. But the life-giving Son of God will destroy Satan and all of his works at the very End. And Heaven will come to earth--never to leave.

On the other hand, when God moves to judge the "world" as in Revelation 3:10, a different Greek word is used--oikoumenes. In this instance, "world" refers to the Beast-following inhabitants of the earth.

And you have made our case for us here. We, those on our side of the debate, say the word ‘world’ does not mean ‘all whoever lived’ but means worldwide. Just like Elvis Presley, Michael Jackson and Billy Graham are known all over the world, not ‘all whoever lived’ have heard of them.

Preacher4Truth · Mar 5, 2019

SovereignGrace said:
And you have made our case for us here. We, those on our side of the debate, say the word ‘world’ does not mean ‘all whoever lived’ but means worldwide. Just like Elvis Presley, Michael Jackson and Billy Graham are known all over the world, not ‘all whoever lived’ have heard of them.

You're a Calvinist, therefore no matter what you say, even if it's true, it really isn't. Plus you're rude and stuff. LOL!

Lady Crosstalk · Mar 5, 2019

SovereignGrace said:
And you have made our case for us here. We, those on our side of the debate, say the word ‘world’ does not mean ‘all whoever lived’ but means worldwide. Just like Elvis Presley, Michael Jackson and Billy Graham are known all over the world, not ‘all whoever lived’ have heard of them.

Ah-ah-ah!

Just because I have argued against YOUR assertion that there is an "apparent contradiction" between John 3:16 and Psalm 5:5 that hardly means that I have "made your case for you". To quote another of your gathering, "that's a huge exaggeration and not even remotely true."

Here is what I believe FYI: I believe that God the Father calls all who hear (some refuse to hear) to come to repentance and faith. Many refuse to hear--Isaiah 30:9; Jeremiah 13:10 and 17:23; Ezekiel 2:7; Luke 16:31; Acts 7:57 and 28:27; 2 Timothy 4:3-4). Yet, He is patient, wanting all to come (2 Peter 3:9). I also believe that the Father and the Son send the Holy Spirit to "convince the world of sin, righteousness and judgment" (John 16:8). The Godhead helps them to believe, through their testimony(Matthew 3:16-17) and then furthers their faith by lessening their doubts (Mark 9:24). The martyrs are especially prized by God because martyrdom shows the high level of faith and trust in God--for all who see. It has been said that many Romans came to faith because the waves of severe persecution by them did not dampen the ardor of Jesus' followers.

Those who will be condemned are those who refuse to respond to the call, in repentance and faith, because 1) their deeds are evil, 2) they have no regard for the truth and 3) they do not have God's love in their hearts, nor do they love Him. (John 3:18-21; John 8:54-56 and John 5:42). Theirs is the more egregious sin--that of refusing to believe, because they do not love the truth (John 18:37). Jesus said that if the unsaved have many sins, they will receive "many stripes"(Luke 12:47-48).

Enoch111 · Mar 5, 2019

SovereignGrace said:
And you have made our case for us here. We, those on our side of the debate, say the word ‘world’ does not mean ‘all whoever lived’ but means worldwide.

That would be an ABSURD interpretation of "world" in John 3:16,17.

So here is what the Calvinist says (bizarrely): For God so loved the worldwide, that he gave his only begotten Son, that the worldwide believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the worldwide to condemn the worldwide; but that the worldwide through him might be saved.

But we know that that is TOTAL NONSENSE, and both Strong's, Thayer's, and Vine's prove that it is nonsense.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words
κόσμος
(Strong's #2889 — Noun Masculine — kosmos — kos'-mos )
primarily "order, arrangement, ornament, adornment" (1 Peter 3:3 , see ADORN , B), is used to denote (a) the "earth," e.g., Matthew 13;35 ; John 21:25 ; Acts 17:24 ; Romans 1:20 (probably here the universe: it had this meaning among the Greeks, owing to the order observable in it); 1 Timothy 6:7 ; Hebrews 4:3 ; 9:26 ; (b) the "earth" in contrast with Heaven, 1 John 3:17 (perhaps also Romans 4:13 ); (c) by metonymy, the "human race, mankind," e.g., Matthew 5:14 ; John 1:9 [here "that cometh (RV, 'coming') into the world" is said of Christ, not of "every man;" by His coming into the world He was the light for all men]; 1 John 3:10 ; 3:16,17 (thrice),19; 4:42, and frequently in Rom. 1Cor. and 1John; (d) "Gentiles" as distinguished from Jews, e.g., Romans 11:12,15 , where the meaning is that all who will may be reconciled (cp. 2 Corinthians 5:19 ); (e) the "present condition of human affairs," in alienation from and opposition to God, e.g., John 7:7 ;8:23 ; 14:30 ; 1 Corinthians 2:12 ; Galatians 4:3 ; 6:14 ; Colossians 2:8 ;James 1:27 ; 1 John 4:5 (thrice); 5:19; (f) the "sum of temporal possessions," Matthew 16:26 ; 1 Corinthians 7:31 (1st part); (g) metaphorically, of the "tongue" as "a world (of iniquity)," James 3:6 ; expressive of magnitude and variety.

Strong's Concordance
kosmos: order, the world
Original Word: κόσμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: kosmos
Phonetic Spelling: (kos'-mos)
Definition: order, the world
Usage: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2889: κόσμος
5. the inhabitants of the world:
θέατρονἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καί ἀγγέλοις καίἀνθρώποις, 1 Corinthians 4:9 (Winers Grammar, 127 (121)); particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race (first so in Sap. (e. g. )): Matthew 13:38; Matthew 18:7; Mark 14:9; John 1:10, 29

Let's take John 1:7 & 29 and see how they related to John 3:16,17
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe...The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

When people base their doctrines on absurdity, the end result is FALSE DOCTRINE.

Lady Crosstalk · Mar 5, 2019

SovereignGrace said:
She was a faux pas, possibly a spellcheck from my iPad. I know my friend, God is Spirit. I know there are no contradictions found in our bibles.

Ppl don’t seem to realize how much God abhors sin. He hates it so much, that even when His Son stood before Him after He became sin[Romans 8:32 & 2 Corinthians 5:21], that in His holiness, He cut Him no slack, but treated Him as if you and I were standing there. And this should cause the lost to run to Him, seeing He cut His own Son no slack. If He cut Him no slack, what will He do to them? Yet this exposes their wicked hearts, and still don’t fear Him. Yea, they still refuse to believe the truth, living in open rebellion towards Him.

God does hate the wicked my Sister.[Psalms 5:5, Proverbs 6:16–19], and they are His His objects of wrath.[John 3:36, Romans 9:19ff, Ephesians 2:3]

I agree with all you have written here. I agree that God Almighty does hate evildoers and that the greatest evil is that of refusing to believe in His Son, whose ultimate mission is to reconcile ALL things to the Father.

Lady Crosstalk · Mar 5, 2019

Enoch111 said:
That would be an ABSURD interpretation of "world" in John 3:16,17.

So here is what the Calvinist says (bizarrely): For God so loved the worldwide, that he gave his only begotten Son, that the worldwide believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the worldwide to condemn the worldwide; but that the worldwide through him might be saved.

But we know that that is TOTAL NONSENSE, and both Strong's, Thayer's, and Vine's prove that it is nonsense.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words
κόσμος
(Strong's #2889 — Noun Masculine — kosmos — kos'-mos )
primarily "order, arrangement, ornament, adornment" (1 Peter 3:3 , see ADORN , B), is used to denote (a) the "earth," e.g., Matthew 13;35 ; John 21:25 ; Acts 17:24 ; Romans 1:20 (probably here the universe: it had this meaning among the Greeks, owing to the order observable in it); 1 Timothy 6:7 ; Hebrews 4:3 ; 9:26 ; (b) the "earth" in contrast with Heaven, 1 John 3:17 (perhaps also Romans 4:13 ); (c) by metonymy, the "human race, mankind," e.g., Matthew 5:14 ; John 1:9 [here "that cometh (RV, 'coming') into the world" is said of Christ, not of "every man;" by His coming into the world He was the light for all men]; 1 John 3:10 ; 3:16,17 (thrice),19; 4:42, and frequently in Rom. 1Cor. and 1John; (d) "Gentiles" as distinguished from Jews, e.g., Romans 11:12,15 , where the meaning is that all who will may be reconciled (cp. 2 Corinthians 5:19 ); (e) the "present condition of human affairs," in alienation from and opposition to God, e.g., John 7:7 ;8:23 ; 14:30 ; 1 Corinthians 2:12 ; Galatians 4:3 ; 6:14 ; Colossians 2:8 ;James 1:27 ; 1 John 4:5 (thrice); 5:19; (f) the "sum of temporal possessions," Matthew 16:26 ; 1 Corinthians 7:31 (1st part); (g) metaphorically, of the "tongue" as "a world (of iniquity)," James 3:6 ; expressive of magnitude and variety.

Strong's Concordance
kosmos: order, the world
Original Word: κόσμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: kosmos
Phonetic Spelling: (kos'-mos)
Definition: order, the world
Usage: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2889: κόσμος
5. the inhabitants of the world:
θέατρονἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καί ἀγγέλοις καίἀνθρώποις, 1 Corinthians 4:9 (Winers Grammar, 127 (121)); particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race (first so in Sap. (e. g. )): Matthew 13:38; Matthew 18:7; Mark 14:9; John 1:10, 29

Let's take John 1:7 & 29 and see how they related to John 3:16,17
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe...The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

When people base their doctrines on absurdity, the end result is FALSE DOCTRINE.

I don't disagree with you here. But, the only problem is that sometimes, the Greek word kosmos is used of the universe and its order, and other times it is used to indicate the earth and even occasionally, the earth's inhabitants. At other times, another Greek word, oikoumenes is chosen to indicate the inhabitants of the earth. (Revelation 3:10)

Enoch111 · Mar 5, 2019

Lady Crosstalk said:
I don't disagree with you here. But, the only problem is that sometimes , the Greek word kosmos is used of the universe and its order, and other times it is used to indicate the earth and even occasionally, the earth's inhabitants. At other times, another Greek word, oikoumenes is chosen to indicate the inhabitants of the earth. (Revelation 3:10)

And that's why context is critical. Both Thayer's and Vine's show how and where the different meaning of kosmos occur. But Thayer's is dishonest in omitting John 3:16,17 from its application to the inhabitants of the world. However, Vine's makes that crystal clear.

justbyfaith · Mar 5, 2019

SovereignGrace said:
And this should cause the lost to run to Him, seeing He cut His own Son no slack. If He cut Him no slack, what will He do to them?

Did Jesus die for His own sin? He died not for His own sin, but for the sins of others; for He never sinned, 2 Corinthians 5:21, Hebrews 4:15, 1 Peter 2:22, 1 John 3:5.

justbyfaith · Mar 5, 2019

Preacher4Truth said:
You're a Calvinist, therefore no matter what you say, even if it's true, it really isn't. Plus you're rude and stuff. LOL!

No, what she was saying (and I agree with her) is that you fit into the basic stereotype that we have of Calvinists.

I always reserve the right to peek in on the posts of those whom I have on Ignore.

Anthony D'Arienzo · Mar 5, 2019

Enoch111 said:
That would be an ABSURD interpretation of "world" in John 3:16,17.

So here is what the Calvinist says (bizarrely): For God so loved the worldwide, that he gave his only begotten Son, that the worldwide believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the worldwide to condemn the worldwide; but that the worldwide through him might be saved.

But we know that that is TOTAL NONSENSE, and both Strong's, Thayer's, and Vine's prove that it is nonsense.

You are not representing what he posted. He spoke of God saving people worldwide, not that the word worldwide should be substituted. You cannot make a valid point without creating a strawman??? That is what you show us here.

Calvinism is a Cult

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