Question about Jesus

(Mighty_Bear;53167)
(Red_Letters88;53152)
Yeah I agree Jag....but I think Mighty Bear has to be either JW or something similar. Mighty- did you completely overlook the earlier posts-including mine?
Jesus is the Son of God Red_Letters88, so how could He have always existed? And I'm not JW. Did He not create Lucifer? Then why do you believe that Jesus wasn't created as they are both morning stars?Isaiah 14:12 GNB King of Babylon, bright morning star, you have fallen from heaven! In the past you conquered nations, but now you have been thrown to the ground.Revelation 22:16 ESV "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."Job 38:7 ESV when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?Christ is God. John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.Genesis 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.John 10:30 - I and my Father are one.John 10:31 - Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.John 10:32 - Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?John 10:33 - The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.I John 5:7 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?Mal 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?Mar 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:ONE RELIGION, ONE GOD, ONE BAPISM

(kriss;53170)
Mighty bear You are losing me here Stars are of course somtimes Angels But these angels are the sons of God , we are told of different duties they may perform and We are told Satan was made the Full Patern Angels have free Will and one third of them Fell and followed Satan. We arent told of any master race of Angels.
I completely agree with you. Might I add that angels are only males. That's why it is called sons of God.

(thesuperjag;53171)
Christ is God. John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.Genesis 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.John 10:30 - I and my Father are one.John 10:31 - Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.John 10:32 - Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?John 10:33 - The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.I John 5:7 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
God is only supplying the clay but Jesus is the potter and He is only making gods and nothing else, paradise is yet to come, so everything else is as nothing except of course the clay.Colossians 1:18 ESV And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.John 10:33-34 ESV The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God." (34) Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'?

(Mighty Bear;53183)
(thesuperjag;53171)
Christ is God. John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.Genesis 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.John 10:30 - I and my Father are one.John 10:31 - Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.John 10:32 - Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?John 10:33 - The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.I John 5:7 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
God is only supplying the clay but Jesus is the potter and He is only making gods and nothing else, paradise is yet to come, so everything else is as nothing except of course the clay.Colossians 1:18 ESV And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.John 10:33-34 ESV The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God." (34) Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'?John 14:8-9 - Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?Genesis 22:8 - And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

Why Mighty Bear- WHY- cant you see that these verses are so clear on this subject. Christ is God and God was NOT created. Jags first post (2 verses) cleared this up perfectly.

Agreed Red Mighty Bear Maybe you should use a different Bible I certainly am not impressed with the one you are quoting, seems it is leading you in a wrong direction.

(kriss;53195)
Agreed Red Mighty Bear Maybe you should use a different Bible I certainly am not impressed with the one you are quoting, seems it is leading you in a wrong direction.
Indeed Kriss. Remember that in my thread whereof I say that ESV (English Standard Version) is of Alexandrian Texts (Egypt) All that text does is destroying our Father's Word. It truly hates Christ.

(Red_Letters88;53192)
Why Mighty Bear- WHY- cant you see that these verses are so clear on this subject. Christ is God and God was NOT created. Jags first post (2 verses) cleared this up perfectly.
How could you accept that belief Red?, a son has to be born and the word "born" means to come into existence. You could be confused about Hebrews 13:8 but to me it means Jesus Christ whom God raised from the dead 2,000 years ago is the same forever and ever.

(Mighty Bear;53199)
How could you accept that belief Red?, a son has to be born and the word "born" means to come into existence. You could be confused about Hebrews 13:8 but to me it means Jesus Christ whom God raised from the dead 2,000 years ago is the same forever and ever.
How can I accept it? Cause its in Gods word.Its so simple John 1:1 Genesis 1:1Who do you say the WORD is? We are told the WORD became flesh!So Christ was with God and Christ is God. The scriptures couldn't make it any more obvious.Why did you even try to use Hebrews 13:8 to support this non biblical belief. True- Christ the Lord is forever the same, but we werent talking about that exactly.You also said "a son has to be born" first of all please use ANY scripture that proves that this applies to our Lord- the Alpha and Omega. (except of course, when Christ took on flesh.)

(Mighty Bear;53199)
How could you accept that belief Red?, a son has to be born and the word "born" means to come into existence. You could be confused about Hebrews 13:8 but to me it means Jesus Christ whom God raised from the dead 2,000 years ago is the same forever and ever.
That's quite nice a son indeed had to be born but take into account that John 1:1 says In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.This clearly says He(Christ) existed before He was born which means He was in existence before He was born regardless of which bible you use you still arrive at this and so your point does not stand furthermore you say Jesus is the potter and clearly from your arguements He was already moulding way before He was born or supposedly came into existence how do you reconcile that. I would argue also since Jesus is the only begotten of the father that He must be just like the father everything produces after it's kind a dog gives birth to a dog a cat to cats and so on so if God were to give birth to His own child then that child would have to be similar to God having thesame features. Like since God is ageless infinite and above time as He is from everlasting to everlasting then the son must also be like this meaning the son is from everlasting to everlasting. Consider the following3Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually Proverbs 8:23I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.Isaiah 9:6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.I would ask you diligently consider the scriptures given and allow God to enlighten you.

(Alistein;53203)
That's quite nice a son indeed had to be born but take into account that John 1:1 says In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.This clearly says He(Christ) existed before He was born which means He was in existence before He was born regardless of which bible you use you still arrive at this and so your point does not stand furthermore you say Jesus is the potter and clearly from your arguements He was already moulding way before He was born or supposedly came into existence how do you reconcile that. I would argue also since Jesus is the only begotten of the father that He must be just like the father everything produces after it's kind a dog gives birth to a dog a cat to cats and so on so if God were to give birth to His own child then that child would have to be similar to God having thesame features. Like since God is ageless infinite and above time as He is from everlasting to everlasting then the son must also be like this meaning the son is from everlasting to everlasting. Consider the following3Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually Proverbs 8:23I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.Isaiah 9:6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.I would ask you diligently consider the scriptures given and allow God to enlighten you.
Very well said Alistein. Mighty Bear- you need to let go of what ever outside source it is that teaches you to pick and choose scripture to suit your needs. This isnt an attack on you, but you must open your eyes to the scriptures presented here. You can see my reply to you for your first question for me at the bottom of page 3.

(Alistein;53203)
That's quite nice a son indeed had to be born but take into account that John 1:1 says In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.This clearly says He(Christ) existed before He was born which means He was in existence before He was born regardless of which bible you use you still arrive at this and so your point does not stand furthermore you say Jesus is the potter and clearly from your arguements He was already moulding way before He was born or supposedly came into existence how do you reconcile that. I would argue also since Jesus is the only begotten of the father that He must be just like the father everything produces after it's kind a dog gives birth to a dog a cat to cats and so on so if God were to give birth to His own child then that child would have to be similar to God having thesame features. Like since God is ageless infinite and above time as He is from everlasting to everlasting then the son must also be like this meaning the son is from everlasting to everlasting. Consider the following3Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually Proverbs 8:23I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.Isaiah 9:6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.I would ask you diligently consider the scriptures given and allow God to enlighten you.
But this is in the OT Psalms 2:7 ESV I will tell of the decree: The LORD said to me, "You are my Son; today I have begotten you.which suggests that there was a time that He was "unbegotten" so if He has always existed He will always be "begotten". Not that God said the word because He was made flesh because after that something changed.Psalms 2:8-9 ESV Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession. (9) You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."The Jews keep records like genealogies, maybe it's because they couldn't find any and the tithe given to Melchizedek is questionable, because all things came from God, and Abraham wouldn't have anything if God didn't allow it to happen. Remember Abraham was rich while the Apostles were poor.Hebrews 7:3 ESV He is without father or mother or genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but resembling the Son of God he continues a priest forever.Acts 2:17 ESV "'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;

(Mighty Bear;53211)
But this is in the OT Psalms 2:7 ESV I will tell of the decree: The LORD said to me, "You are my Son; today I have begotten you.which suggests that there was a time that He was "unbegotten" so if He has always existed He will always be "begotten". Not that God said the word because He was made flesh because after that something changed.
You are not making sense. John 1:1 says He was in existence with God from the beginning verse 14 says He became flesh, how do you suppose that happened through birth. Also why is He called the son of God, simple because He was begotten of God before that He was called the Word and by His other names declared to us. It is clear in scripture that he already existed before He was born as I have shown in the previous post so the time He was begotten is not the point also as I have said everything produces after it's kind since He is the only begotten of the father it means like the father He is not created, has no beginning and no end but is eternal, infinite and beyond comprehension. Remember the bible is the inspired word of God and therefore it makes sense only God is the most suitable to explain what He inspired1 Corinthians 2:11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Psalms 2:8-9 ESV Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession. (9) You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."
Okay what is your argument here.
The Jews keep records like genealogies, maybe it's because they couldn't find any and the tithe given to Melchizedek is questionable, because all things came from God, and Abraham wouldn't have anything if God didn't allow it to happen. Remember Abraham was rich while the Apostles were poor.
Abraham himself paid the tithe to Melchizedek in the book of genesis and may I remind you this is a book written by Moses under the instruction of God and Moses recorded it your objections here would be to God. the tithe is however a whole new topic the point here is the reference.
Hebrews 7:3 ESV He is without father or mother or genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but resembling the Son of God he continues a priest forever.
What is your point here this is obvious the conclusion is the son of God must also have no beginning of days or end of days and Proverbs 8:23I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Acts 2:17 ESV "'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;
Again what is your point here? 1 Corinthians 2:9-129But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

If Jesus is the Word, how can there be a "time" when God the Father is without His Word?

(Mighty Bear;53211)
But this is in the OT Psalms 2:7 ESV I will tell of the decree: The LORD said to me, "You are my Son; today I have begotten you.which suggests that there was a time that He was "unbegotten" so if He has always existed He will always be "begotten". Not that God said the word because He was made flesh because after that something changed.
You are just getting ridiculous now. Mighty Bear- YOU are the one who brought up the verse of Hebrews 13:8Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Mighty bearJust what is it you are trying to say I cant make rhyme or reason out of the scriptures you are giving you are all over the board I see quotes that range from outragous to ridiculous and I still dont see any point. You have made. Christ is making little gods ?????? What is that sounds like the same lie Satan told Eve in the garden.

(kriss;53256)
Mighty bearJust what is it you are trying to say I cant make rhyme or reason out of the scriptures you are giving you are all over the board I see quotes that range from outragous to ridiculous and I still dont see any point. You have made. Christ is making little gods ?????? What is that sounds like the same lie Satan told Eve in the garden.
I agree with you Kriss. It is said on...Genesis 3:5 - For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.It is impossible for God to create other gods...In fact it sounds like Allah, whereof the Qu'ran said that Allah made Mary and Jesus as gods...you guys see a connection...(Romans 1:23, Romans 1:25)Give me a break. God can not create evil...

Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.And the fact a concept or expressions of the Trinity is less evident in the OT than the NT does not make a case against it. If the OT verses being presented here can be addressed within the context of the Trinity (and they have been well defended here as doing just that), then there is no need to imagine the OT conflicts with John or that the doctrine is therefore contradictory (with the OT) or unbiblicalNor does anything presented here against the Trinity explain why the Apostles would allow the expression of elements of the Trinity doctrine if they themselves did not believe it. We have ample expressions of such elements in the first century AND the direct apprentices to the Apostles develop it much further in the beginning of the 2nd century.

I give up considering there are three heavens and the first one is eternal, not created.