Hermeneutics vs. "Herd-meneutics"

Dave L said:

The day of worship ([Zechariah] vv. 16–19)

The primary occupation of heaven will be the worship of the God of heaven. In these verses, the prophet foresees those who are ‘left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem’ (v. 16) joining in the worship. This indicates the conversion of those who once were the enemies of God and his people. Conversion makes God’s enemies his friends and sinners his subjects.
What are we to make of the reference to these converts keeping the Feast of Tabernacles (v. 16)? This feast was designed to commemorate the wandering of the people of Israel for forty years in the wilderness, during which time they were compelled to live in temporary booths or shelters. During the eight days of the feast, the Jews would recall those years by constructing temporary shelters for themselves and staying in them during the feast.
The Feast of Tabernacles was also a harvest festival. James Ayre writes of it, ‘It reminds them that God brought them out of a desert into a glorious land flowing with milk and honey; a land of broad rivers and streams.’2
The mention of this particular feast in relation to eternal glory should therefore be taken to mean that the saints who worship in heaven will be mindful of their wandering before they were saved and of the grace that made them part of God’s great spiritual harvest.
We cannot leave this section without noting that those who are not present to participate in the worship of heaven are under the judgement of God and plagued by him, just like Egypt of old (Exod. 7:14–10:29; 12:29–30).


Ellsworth, R. (2010). Opening Up Zechariah (pp. 135–136). Leominster: Day One Publications.

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Copperhead said:

What is really bad about that is it totally assails the scripture. The kingdom of Yeshua is not in Heaven, it is here on earth. The OT is replete with passages that show that and Yeshua will reign from Jerusalem as promised to David (2 Samuel 7).

That passage in Zechariah regarding the Feast of Tabernacles, what happens to those who do not go to Jerusalem to keep that festival? They are punished for by having rain withheld from their land. Some will rebel against the Lord that will cause Him to have to punish them.

This comports with why Yeshua will be ruling with a rod of iron. Revelation 2 and Revelation 12. Why would He have to do so with those that were converted and part of the redeemed in Him? Do we then take our sin nature with us into the Kingdom and still rebel against Yeshua? Absurd!! No, these people that are rebelling are literal mortals who were allowed into the kingdom ON EARTH that the Messiah is reigning over. They are the sheep of the nations who will be judged on how they treat Yeshua's brethren in Matthew 25 and those of the Hebrews who were represented by the 10 virgins of Matthew 25. No, those virgins do no represent the church. The church is the bride of Yeshua, the virgins are the brides maids.

The kingdom parables of Matthew 13 bear out the fact that the kingdom will not be perfect, in fact, it will become progressively more evil over time. Isaiah let's us know that there will even be death in the kingdom. Does that sound like a perfect world?

The Parable of the Mustard Tree. The tree grows big and covers everything and the birds come and nest in it. The key to the parable is "birds". In the previous parable of the Sower, Yeshua told us that the birds are the evil ones. So while Satan may be locked up, the evil ones will be nesting in the kingdom.

What of the Parable of the Leaven? The woman hides leaven in three measures of meal, which during temple times was the fellowship offering. But she hides leaven in the fellowship offering. That was a capital crime during the temple days. Leaven is symbolic of sin and corruption. Remember how Yeshua told His disciples to avoid the leaven of the Pharisees?

The parable of the Wheat and the Tares, unlike other parables where the owner of the field is off somewhere else, the owner is there. Again, evil has been introduced into the kingdom as Tares. The evil ones sow the tares. Eventually, the kingdom of Yeshua becomes corrupted with all the tares and the harvest at the end of the age (not the end of the tribulation period) occurs where the righteous and evil are separated and the righteous go into the Kingdom of the Father.

If the Kingdom of Yeshua is so great and perfect, why does it only last 1000 years and then when Satan is release, most of the kingdom rebels against Yeshua? Revelation 20 and Psalms 2.

As the Parable of the Leaven shows, sin is introduced into the kingdom and eventually permeates the entire kingdom. Matthew 13. Some of the subjects will refuse to go up to Jerusalem to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. They will have rain withheld from their land. Zechariah 14:16-18. The the nations grow discontented over Yeshua ruling over them with a rod of iron to the point when Satan is released (Revelation 20), he foments a final climactic rebellion against Yeshua (Psalms 2).

No matter how perfect of conditions that the Lord will provide for man, the sinful heart of man remains.

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Copperhead said:

What is really bad about that is it totally assails the scripture. The kingdom of Yeshua is not in Heaven, it is here on earth. The OT is replete with passages that show that and Yeshua will reign from literal Jerusalem as promised to David (2 Samuel 7).

The disciples even asked Yeshua before His ascension if now was the time He would set up the kingdom for Israel and reign from Jerusalem. They knew the promises of the OT. He did not chide them for asking that question but acknowledged it was a right question by stating that the period is up to the Father and they were not to worry about it but focus on their task of spreading the Gospel.

That passage in Zechariah regarding the Feast of Tabernacles, what happens to those who do not go to Jerusalem to keep that festival? They are punished for by having rain withheld from their land. Some will rebel against the Lord that will cause Him to have to punish them.

This comports with why Yeshua will be ruling with a rod of iron. Revelation 2 and Revelation 12. Why would He have to do so with those that were converted and part of the redeemed in Him? Do we then take our sin nature with us into the Kingdom and still rebel against Yeshua? Absurd!! No, these people that are rebelling are literal mortals who were allowed into the kingdom ON EARTH that the Messiah is reigning over. They are the sheep of the nations who will be judged on how they treat Yeshua's brethren in Matthew 25 and those of the Hebrews who were represented by the 10 virgins of Matthew 25. No, those virgins do no represent the church. The church is the bride of Yeshua, the virgins are the brides maids.

The kingdom parables of Matthew 13 bear out the fact that the kingdom will not be perfect, in fact, it will become progressively more evil over time. Isaiah let's us know that there will even be death in the kingdom. Does that sound like a perfect world?

The Parable of the Mustard Tree. The tree grows big and covers everything and the birds come and nest in it. The key to the parable is "birds". In the previous parable of the Sower, Yeshua told us that the birds are the evil ones. So while Satan may be locked up, the evil ones will be nesting in the kingdom.

What of the Parable of the Leaven? The woman hides leaven in three measures of meal, which during temple times was the fellowship offering. But she hides leaven in the fellowship offering. That was a capital crime during the temple days. Leaven is symbolic of sin and corruption. Remember how Yeshua told His disciples to avoid the leaven of the Pharisees?

The parable of the Wheat and the Tares, unlike other parables where the owner of the field is off somewhere else, the owner is there. Again, evil has been introduced into the kingdom as Tares. The evil ones sow the tares. Eventually, the kingdom of Yeshua becomes corrupted with all the tares and the harvest at the end of the age (not the end of the tribulation period) occurs where the righteous and evil are separated and the righteous go into the Kingdom of the Father.

If the Kingdom of Yeshua is so great and perfect, why does it only last 1000 years and then when Satan is release, most of the kingdom rebels against Yeshua? Revelation 20 and Psalms 2.

As the Parable of the Leaven shows, sin is introduced into the kingdom and eventually permeates the entire kingdom. Matthew 13. Some of the subjects will refuse to go up to Jerusalem to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. They will have rain withheld from their land. Zechariah 14:16-18. The the nations grow discontented over Yeshua ruling over them with a rod of iron to the point when Satan is released (Revelation 20), he foments a final climactic rebellion against Yeshua (Psalms 2).

No matter how perfect of conditions that the Lord will provide for man, the sinful heart of man remains.

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Dave L said:

Why don'y you write a book on it if you know more than those who write books on it?

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Copperhead said:

No need. The HS already wrote the book. Is that the best retort you can use? Can you prove from scripture that I erred in my analysis?

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Dave L said:

You need to interpret the OT by the NT. The kingdom of God and Heaven are one and the same. And here now;
“But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken you.” (Luke 11:20) (NET)

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Copperhead said:

No, the prescription in the Torah is that a matter cannot be established without the testimony of two or more witnesses. The kingdom of God and heaven are indeed the same, but it is to be on earth after the tribulation period and Messiah will be reigning from Jerusalem. That doesn't negate the fact that there will be mortal people that are subjects of that kingdom. Who else is going to repopulate the earth, the redeemed in their eternal state?

The Bereans gave us that model in the Book of Acts...

Acts 17:10-11 Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

They set the example that follows the Torah. Two witnesses... the OT and NT (teach of Paul which eventually became the NT). So, for any doctrinal matter to be establish, it must be supported in both the OT and NT. The Bereans were commended by the HS for doing that and they are our example.

One does not interpret the OT by the NT, they compliment each other. One witness does not interpret what the other witness states. The witnesses testimony is compared to see if they agree.

If one has a problem with that, take it us with the author of the scriptures. He makes the rules.

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Dave L said:

And only you get to say what it means?

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Copperhead said:

You actually believe that I am the only one who sees the scripture this way? You give me way too much credit, but thanks. No, many before me have seen the scripture the same way, and many of the growing Messianic Jews who are coming to Yeshua see it the same way. Oriigen, Augustine, Luther, and Calvin made a mess of things.

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Dave L said:

It still comes down to your private interpretation of portions of scripture while ignoring the full picture.

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Dave L said:

Dispensationalism is less than 200 years old. And not part of historic Christian doctrine.

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Copperhead said:

You are free to ignore it or accept it. But to refute it, you have to provide scripture proof from both the OT and NT. That is the standard set by the scriptures.

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Copperhead said:

Now you bring up something I never mentioned. But you err, dispensations are mentioned in the scripture. So unless the scripture is less than 200 years old, you err. Dispensationalist theology has some errors as does many theological positions. Even Calvinism and Arminianism have there problems. Both err on what they deny and both are correct on what they assert.

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Dave L said:

Where does scripture mention these dispensations?

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Copperhead said:

Do you actually even read the scriptures that you would ask such a question? Well here ya go. And notice.... each mention of dispensation is about something different. Dispensational theology is not foreign to the scripture. It may have issues due to the limited nature of the men who developed it, but that doesn't altogether negate it.

1 Corinthians 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Colossians 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

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Dave L said:

How about a historic creedal statement?
The Nicene Creed

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of His Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made; Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge both the living and the dead; Whose kingdom shall have no end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets. And we believe in one holy catholic* and apostolic church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

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Copperhead said:

His Kingdom shall have no end, but the kingdom promised on earth to the patriarchs and especially King David is a limited one. Eventually He will have to destroy everything and create a new heaven and new earth. Revelation 21. He will indeed reign forever.

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Dave L said:

The congregation of the Lord in the OT is the Church of the Lord. Congregation = Church.

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prism said:

KJV uses the word Church, other translations use the word congregation which is closer to synagogue as (con)gregation =(syn)agogue. Not once is there a word in the OT translated into the Word 'Church' it was referred to as an assembly or congregation.
Synagogue=Assembly/gathering together
Church (ekklesia) = called out ones.

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Dave L said:

“This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:” (Acts 7:38) (KJV 1900)

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