The 2 Levels of Holiness

Episkopos · Mar 6, 2019

marks said:
There is no "deeper holiness" here, in my estimation, simply the reality of what Jesus did.

I've died but I'm still alive! But it's not me, it's actually Jesus living in me! And the life I now think of as me is actually faith from God in me, bringing His life into me.

Isn't this plainly stated? Don't we just need to accept the reality of the words we can readily read?

You are not called to "accept the reality of the words"....that is what religious indoctrination does. You are to go through the experience of it and actually KNOW the power of His resurrection. I call it the deeper things because that's what it is. NOT a superficial nodding in agreement to a text. THAT is superficial.
The first step is to receive forgiveness.....the second step is to suffer with Christ the separation of ourselves from this world.

CoreIssue · Mar 6, 2019

Episkopos said:
OK....so this is going to be difficult for some people here. Since this isn't taught in sunday school this will not be understood or accepted so easily. But to those who love the truth and want to go deeper than sunday school...here is a thread that will take you deeper (by faith of course)

I want to show a teaching that is hidden in the Torah. Jews can't perceive it because they lack the experience of a holy walk with Jesus. Christians won't get it so easily unless they have in fact walked in heavenly places with Christ.

But the word speaks for itself. Let those who have eyes to see read the truth for themselves.

I want to compare 2 verses in the OT that say the same thing...but on completely different levels. The translation just re-iterates the same words in both cases. The translations MISS the depth of the message, as is so often the case. Naturally, a pre-requisite to being a bible translator is NOT that one walk in the holiness of God in Christ. It's more about language and trying to make sense of the verse for the sake of most people and in a sunday school kind of way. To go further than this one dimensional approach one will have to deviate from the wide road to follow eternal paths that are hidden from the casual observer.

The 2 verses I wish to compare are Ex. 21:23 (a life for a life) and Deut. 19:21 (a life for a life)

If you are interested in going for a spiritual ride....check these passages out BEFORE going to my next post. Can you see anything that changes everything?

And here you go again.

There isn't levels of holiness, there is progression by learning and growing Christ. It is not law, it is sanctification.

Indeed there is great depth and meaning and understanding in the Bible. Sanctification takes us deeper into those meanings. Not your declaration of law.

You keep trying to spiritualize everything, when not everything is spiritual.

I hope everyone sees you had to appeal to the Old Testament to make your arguments.

You centered all your arguments on your philosophy.

I've heard all of this kind of stuff before. It is always by somebody trying to sound profound and more knowledgeable than others.

Knowledge growth comes from many places. Words of a child can open doors. Knowledge and learning of elders is indispensable, as the Bible says many times.

No one person has a corner on the truth.

You've already revealed in other threads you miss translate text to fit your needs. A big mistake that others will see and stop listening to you.

CoreIssue · Mar 6, 2019

Episkopos said:
You are not called to "accept the reality of the words"....that is what religious indoctrination does. You are to go through the experience of it and actually KNOW the power of His resurrection. I call it the deeper things because that's what it is. NOT a superficial nodding in agreement to a text. THAT is superficial.
The first step is to receive forgiveness.....the second step is to suffer with Christ the separation of ourselves from this world.

Why do I envision a swami when I read much of what to say?

Episkopos · Mar 6, 2019

The truth is that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. Turning to Christ gets us started on the path of redemption and holiness.

But Jesus was RAISED for OUR justification. That means that the life of Jesus is reserved for those who have gone over to God in Christ to be partakers of His death.

The 2 steps then are...death and then life.

It is the same with the bread and wine which represents the body and blood of Christ. The body is sacrificed....but the blood is the life. The bread is on the outside but the blood is on the inside. So then a deeper work of the cross is needed for the interior transformation to take place.

The purpose of all this is to know (experience) the parameters of the love of God concerning us.

CoreIssue · Mar 6, 2019

Episkopos said:
The truth is that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. Turning to Christ gets us started on the path of redemption and holiness.

But Jesus was RAISED for OUR justification. That means that the life of Jesus is reserved for those who have gone over to God in Christ to be partakers of His death.

The 2 steps then are...death and then life.

It is the same with the bread and wine which represents the body and blood of Christ. The body is sacrificed....but the blood is the life. The bread is on the outside but the blood is on the inside. So then a deeper work of the cross is needed for the interior transformation to take place.

The purpose of all this is to know (experience) the parameters of the love of God concerning us.

Turning to Christ only gets us started?

Then we have to follow your step-by-step legalism?

marks · Mar 6, 2019

Episkopos said:
The whole process of suffering in Christ is for the mature believer who is no longer trying to avoid everything but immediate blessings. The more we can give up of ourselves...the more we receive of Christ.

1 Pet. 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

Yes but this is not mystically joining to Jesus in His scourging, as we are mystically joined to Christ in His death.

1 Peter 4:12-16

12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

These are the sufferings we endure for being who and what we are, even as Christ endured His suffering for being Who and What He was.

But again, we are joined to Him in His death, so we don't have to experience that death. Just the same, we suffer Christ's suffering in our own sufferings, according to this Word.

Much love!
Mark

Episkopos · Mar 6, 2019

CoreIssue said:
There isn't levels of holiness, there is progression by learning and growing Christ. It is not law, it is sanctification.

There are 2 approaches to sanctification and holiness...gradually and suddenly.

Episkopos · Mar 6, 2019

CoreIssue said:
Turning to Christ only gets us started?

Then we have to follow your step-by-step legalism?

You seem unfamiliar with the way of Jesus Christ . The door is narrow....and so is the way. These are 2 different things.

The way of Christ is only a familiar concept with those who have walked on it.

marks · Mar 6, 2019

Episkopos said:
Yes. And just when I thought I'd reached the depth of God's working in me....there was yet another huge step to take. Thw ways of God are deep indeed.

There can be a tendency to see how God works in me and to think that this is how God works in everyone. But that's not true.

Much love!

marks · Mar 6, 2019

Episkopos said:
The modern teachings avoid the truth and the difficulties of the cross by turning into empty dogmas to be accepted as already applied by religious indoctrination.

This is what I am to you?

It isn't HIS death (apart from us) that brings new life...it is as we walk in His death that we receive the power of life that Jesus was resurrected by. You are stuck on a historic and religious event....but lack the experience of it.

Since you want to make this personal, please inform me of the foundation of you so-called knowledge of me. I'm stuck, I lack experience, tell me, how do you know this is so?

Isn't the truth that I simply disagree with you?

How do you know me??

Wouldn't it be more profitable to answer my objections? Or is it just better to say, Oh, you're just indoctinated with dogmas that you don't even understand?

The fact is, I'm not into "mystery religions".

Much love!
Mark

Episkopos · Mar 6, 2019

marks said:
Yes but this is not mystically joining to Jesus in His scourging, as we are mystically joined to Christ in His death.

You are speaking of mystical things but I am speaking of experiencing what God wants us to partake in of Christ.

IF we have been raised with Christ we are to seek the things that are above.

Now of course people will spiritualize this and lake it a normal set of events. But this is not being understood at the level it is being written in. IF we have been granted a new heavenly life then we can set ourselves on THAT course....not by religious imagination...but by prioritizing the eternal things over the temporal. THAT is the way of spiritual maturity.

It is impossible to set our eyes on things that are above unless we have been given the experience and the faculties to do so. There is no imagination that can do this.

It would be like asking for astronauts who have not been on the moon to draw on the experience of the moon. It is only AFTER (the if in the verse) having experienced something that we can draw something from it.

We need to go from theories which are vain...to experience.

VictoryinJesus · Mar 6, 2019

marks said:
There is no "deeper holiness" here, in my estimation,

Sounds like works of the flesh yeah? But consider James 4:7-10
[7] Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. [8] Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. [9] Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. [10] Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

God resists the proud ...pride is the enemy. Pride is the bondage of vanity and corruption and who knows better how to deliver His children from evil than God? So please don’t misunderstand. Not works of the flesh but His work. An example: one is approached and falsely accused and taken advantage of. Pride says it is weak to submit but doesn’t His word say to do just that. For the children’s sake in the removal of that which rears up and wants to defend us as right. doesn’t His word say in doing so, submitting to humility and suffering the wrong rather than justifying our own person as being right; for his name sake the God OF peace rules in the children of God...instead of men?

Have you ever been put in a situation where pride promoted you there is no way you will ever submit to such an offense or wrong?

Episkopos · Mar 6, 2019

marks said:
There can be a tendency to see how God works in me and to think that this is how God works in everyone. But that's not true.

Much love!

I'm only speaking of what is written to us all in the bible.

Here's a question for you. How many churches teach that half of their number will be shut out of the kingdom because they are like lamps without oil (based on the parable in Mat. 25). Of course nobody considers that they could possibly be such a virgin. Just as young men going to war don't consider that they could be killed or very seriously injured. It's a very human inability to receive reality in truth.

We see the same things among the spiritually immature in the church. The problem is the modern scarcity of anything resembling spiritual maturity. The kids have taken over the class...and nothing is getting learned.

marks · Mar 6, 2019

Episkopos said:
You are not called to "accept the reality of the words"....that is what religious indoctrination does. You are to go through the experience of it and actually KNOW the power of His resurrection. I call it the deeper things because that's what it is. NOT a superficial nodding in agreement to a text. THAT is superficial.
The first step is to receive forgiveness.....the second step is to suffer with Christ the separation of ourselves from this world.

So . . . the truth of Scripture isn't true until you've had an experience?

NOT a superficial nodding in agreement to a text.

Maybe this is the difficulty. Maybe you began with a superficial agreement, and have progressed to something more. But that does not mean that we all who believe the Bible believe it in the same light way.

This then is another straw man. Either I agree with you, or my agreement with Scripture is superficial, and I mustn't have a superficial agreement with Scripture! But that is where it lead away from the discussion.

Believing the Bible is true is what allows that experience you value so highly to happen. Knowing the truth of Scripture will always preceed knowing the power of His resurrection.

And knowing the power of His resurrection results in believing the truth of the word.

Much love!
Mark

marks · Mar 6, 2019

Episkopos said:
The 2 steps then are...death and then life.

We have passed from death into life.

One step.

Episkopos · Mar 6, 2019

marks said:
This is what I am to you?

I'm not blaming you...but you are a product of the modern way of thinking. You are unable to learn because you have been taught a superficial "truth" that stops anything else from going in. It's a very effective way to stop people from going deeper in their walk in the Lord.

This isn't about stopping something that's wrong...but going on to perfection. One must discern the devil's ploy to make the good the enemy of the perfect. The devil uses the human reasoning of making everything either good or bad.

I'm not going to try convincing you anyway. Only God takes a person to a deeper place. If you don't believe or refuse....that's up to you.

Episkopos · Mar 6, 2019

marks said:
We have passed from death into life.

One step.

And the second step is to walk in that life...just as Jesus walked. In HIS power.

CoreIssue · Mar 6, 2019

Episkopos said:
There are 2 approaches to sanctification and holiness...gradually and suddenly.

We are sanctified, meaning set apart from Jesus, when born again. That is instant and unchanging.

Our growth in Jesus is process.

That is one single process, not approaches.

Episkopos · Mar 6, 2019

marks said:
So . . . the truth of Scripture isn't true until you've had an experience?

Re-read the OP. You are making this about true or false. If you drive a car...does that mean you no longer are able to ride a bike? See how your modern reasoning goes? You are not being logical...never mind biblical here.

marks · Mar 6, 2019

Episkopos said:
You are speaking of mystical things but I am speaking of experiencing what God wants us to partake in of Christ.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, please, but have you not been teaching that there is a joining to Jesus in His beating in the same way that there is a joining to Jesus in His death?

And that as we are joined to Jesus in death, we die, and being joined to Jesus in His beating we live? Am I getting this wrong?

but by prioritizing the eternal things over the temporal. THAT is the way of spiritual maturity

OK, this sounds great!

It is impossible to set our eyes on things that are above unless we have been given the experience and the faculties to do so. There is no imagination that can do this.

We've been given God's Holy Spirit, and God's Holy Word. But this is not enough without your sort of experiences?

We need to go from theories which are vain...to experience.

Now . . . to be sure . . . this will be my rendering of your statement, just the same, this is how it sounds to me:

We need to go from the teaching of the Bible to experience.

Doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

Much love!
Mark

The 2 Levels of Holiness

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