When to look for the rapture of the church

Bobby Jo said:

Is this a JOKE? Why are you telling a JOKE? It's not a funny JOKE. Please cease your JOKE.

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Medo-Persia is not a joke. The Medes and the Persians were distinct ethnic groups. And Greece and Macedonia were also two separate entities. So we have Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greco-Macedonia, and Rome as the four empires which succeeded each other and are portrayed in Daniel.

What is the significance of the Medo-Persian Empire in biblical history?

Greco-Macedonian Empire (Forerunner Commentary)

Enoch111 said:

Medo-Persia is not a joke. The Medes and the Persians were distinct ethnic groups. And Greece and Macedonia were also two separate entities. So we have Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greco-Macedonia, and Rome as the four empires which succeeded each other and are portrayed in Daniel.

What is the significance of the Medo-Persian Empire in biblical history?

Greco-Macedonian Empire (Forerunner Commentary)

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You have no clue as to World History. You might know the lies of the commentators, but World History is explained by Scripture and Historians, and they're both an enigma to you!

Plus that, you're bad at math. FIVE ≠FOUR, or so my first grade teacher insisted ...


BJ

Bobby Jo said:

You have no clue as to World History.

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As usual your inaccurate comments are hilarious. Keep it up, Bobby Jo.

Enoch111 said:

.. Keep it Bobby Jo.

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"Keep it" -- what? Did you mean to say "Keep it up"? That's ok, English is a second language for a LOT of people. It's nothing to be embarrassed about. Just keep practicing!


Bobby Jo

To be clear:


The commentators assert that this "Ram" represents the Medo/Persian Empire under Cyrus the Great. However they couldn't be further from the truth. Cyrus' Empire NEVER had a dual monarchy:


however the Romans did:


The historical record apparently doesn't change the minds of religious people. Their doctrines apparently supersede BOTH Scripture and History, and there's no amount of FACTS that can change their mind. It my be analogous to being brain washed, -- with WILLING PARTICIPANTS. But GOD calls us to "reason" both in our relationship with GOD and man:



... and to "reason" we must use facts, -- not our imagination and not FALSE doctrines!



Bobby Jo

Taken said:

Disagree with your assessment.

Glory to God,
Taken

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Yes--Peter was "the apostle to the Jews" just as Paul was the "apostle to the Gentiles" (see Galatians 2:7-8). It is nearly certain that Peter was speaking to the Jewish (and possibly even the Israelite) diaspora of Asia Minor (present-day Turkey) in the opening chapter of 1 Peter (our hint is that they are living as "foreigners" among the Gentiles). They have always thought of themselves as God's Chosen people, since the days of Moses (see Deuteronomy 26:18) They were chosen, by God, to give birth to the Messiah as well as preserve the oracles of God. This is signified by the "woman" with a crown of twelve stars, struggling to give birth (Revelation chapter 12). As such, we owe them a great debt of gratitude (NOT contempt as some would have it). We stand on their shoulders.

Bobby Jo said:

"Keep it" -- what? Did you mean to say "Keep it up"?

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That's what it was supposed to be, and I have fixed it up. But your posts are always good for a laugh.

Lady Crosstalk said:

Yes--Peter was "the apostle to the Jews" just as Paul was the "apostle to the Gentiles" (see Galatians 2:7-8). It is nearly certain that Peter was speaking to the Jewish (and possibly even the Israelite) diaspora of Asia Minor (present-day Turkey) in the opening chapter of 1 Peter (our hint is that they are living as "foreigners" among the Gentiles). They have always thought of themselves as God's Chosen people, since the days of Moses (see Deuteronomy 26:18) They were chosen, by God, to give birth to the Messiah as well as preserve the oracles of God. This is signified by the "woman" with a crown of twelve stars, struggling to give birth (Revelation chapter 12). As such, we owe them a great debt of gratitude (NOT contempt as some would have it). We stand on their shoulders.

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Where is the Jesus in all this I though that we stood on Jesus shoulders.
The Jews were to stand of Jesus shoulders but most were not of God and lead astray by Satan's works.
We own no man anything, it's only to God that is the point of understanding, the majority of Jews were always lost as to God, why do you think that God sent them prophets for, they were lost without them, not to mention that the fools turned away from God and corruption set in and they lost Israel and then Judah, so no they failed badly without God. not to mention that anyone who rejects Jesus Christ is in fact an Anti-Christ in fact and who listens to Anti-Christ only Satanist do. such people will never have the Kingdom of God, not to mention they are going to Hell. not to mention anyone who is outside of Jesus Christ is worthy of only creating hellfire.

Reggie Belafonte said:

Where is the Jesus in all this I though that we stood on Jesus shoulders.

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No, we rest in His arms. I am speaking of faithful followers of Yahweh, like Abraham. We are the spiritual children of Abraham. Jesus said, "Abraham delighted to see my day."

Naomi25 said:

How can all these things be at the same time? Unless....they're all at the same time.

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Hi Naomi, I’d like to take the opportunity to go over your outline of end-time events. Hopefully, by the time I’m done I will have eliminated what you consider: “Back to the idea of Christ 'defeating death' at his return, the Achilles heel on the earthly Millennial issue.”

Let’s break down 1 Cor. 15:21-26: For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order:

Christ the firstfruits,- When Jesus became the actual firstfruits of the resurrection and after his ascension, we the church, while still alive also, by faith became firstfruits as well. This began by being the firstfruits to the receiving of the Holy Spirit. Rom. 8:23 – “ And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.” See also James 1:18.

then at his coming those who belong to Christ. This is the second group (the raptured/resurrected church) to be resurrected but we should consider ourselves already resurrected by faith, we just await the reality. 2 Tim. 1:10 – “But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath (present tense) abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:” But we are still part of the first resurrection (Rev. 20:5). Rev. 20:13 is the second resurrection. You can’t have a first w/o at least a second.

Now let’s take a look at the latter part of your second scripture: 1 Co. 15:54-55 – “When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.“O death, where is your victory?O death, where is your sting?” I think that what you’re not understanding is that at this time this victory over death is only for the raptured/resurrected church, not for the whole earth.

Then comes the end, Nothing here implies immediately after. The “end” aka, “the day of the Lord” has many components and lasts for over a thousand years. Where do we see this? In the chain of events ( all the judgments and events in Rev. up to and through the events given in Rev. 20:5-21:1. In vss. 5-7 a 1000yrs. is mentioned three times for emphasis, imo. If one were to go over all the prophecies in both testaments involving the day, that day, etc., all referring to the day of the Lord, it is impossible that it will all occur in a single moment.

when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. When does scripture say he does this? The scriptures speak forward in faith after the wrath of the lamb but before the wrath of God in Rev.11:15.

For he must reign (see bold below) until he has put all his enemies under his feet. While he is presently seated at the right hand of God and all rule and authority are given to him, he is not yet ready for that to become an actual reality on earth. The prophesied events and Satan, who is still ruler of the earth at this time and has been since the fall of Adam, are given their time to play out the events before it becomes a near fulfillment. Satan’s rule over the earth until after the final 42 months (Rev. 13:5 and 12:12). This will conclude right after Armageddon when he begins his earthly reign as King of Kings and Lord of Lords (Rev. 19:15-16). The far fulfillment will be post millennium, after Satan is let loose again and God destroys them all. They won’t truly be under his feet until after that time. To me, this when the 2 Pet. 3:10 (read context vss. 7-13) comes true. It’s like the beginning of the end literally comes true at this time, after the events of 2 Pet. 3:7 and the judgment spoken there is the GWTJ which scripture shows is after the millennium, after death is finally and fully defeated and just before the new heavens and new earth, so in that part at least post-millennium is true to scripture.

The last enemy to be destroyed is death. As I said above it won’t happen until after the GWTJ because it has to cover the whole earth, not just the church. (Is. 25:8, the covering and veil is death).

As a final observation, I found it interesting that you recognized the chronology in Corinthians by the usage of the word “then” and “when”. You will find this same chronology throughout Revelations but John uses “And I” or And when”, etc. Almost every verse begins with “And” or something similar, speaking of things that follow one another.

Bobby Jo said:

and to "reason" we must use facts, -- not our imagination and not FALSE doctrines

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Two horns, one beast, the two combined into one: Medo/Persia. From a non-Christian World History site, Socratic.org. - "
Cyrus the Great was a Persian King, Cyrus created an alliance with Darius King of the Medes to create the Persian Media Empire. Together this alliance conquered the Babylonian Empire. The Medes were definitely the junior partners in the Empire which later became known as simply the Persian Empire.

Though Darius the king of Medes was put in charge of the conquered city of Babylon, as recorded in the book of Daniel Chapters 6, and 9. Cyrus was the main leader of the combined kingdoms.

Taken said:

Simple questions...asked; YOU, WHAT YOU BELIEVE.
What Rapture means.
Who it applies to.
Why it does not apply to All
Where the Raptured go.

YOU did not Answer what YOU Believe.

What do you believe the RAPTURE means?
Catching up, taking, redeeming, claiming.

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Please relax. I answered generally, as two people asked a similar question and I thought it would be easier to answer both in a general manner. If you want specifics, I'm quite happy to give them.

1 Thess 4:17 has the words "caught up", which in the Greek is "harpazo", which means "to seize, catch up, snatch away". When we are then told in the verse that this 'catching up' is into the air well, I believe the imagry becomes self-evident. A physical drawing upwards into the air to meet the Lord as he descends from heaven.

And whom specifically do you believe that applies to?
Christ's Church, the Converted.

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In 1 Thess 4 Paul is talking to "brothers" (v13), and in the 'other' Rapture passage, 1 Cor 15:23, Paul tells us that it will be those who "belong to Christ".
In other words: Christians.

And Why would it specifically Apply to some and not others?
Because not all are Converted.

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Saved and unsaved. The Rapture is "for those who belong to Christ". Those who do not will see him coming to 'repay each according to what they had done' (Matt 16:27).

And Where are "whatever is Raptured", "Raptured "TO"? <--- Place?
Clouds / Upper Air

My answer in RED.

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Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. -Matthew 24:30–31

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. -1 Thessalonians 4:16–17

These verses clearly tells us we shall MEET the Lord in the air. We probably won't stay there, but that's where it happens.

ORDER...God has an ORDER. And the Order of ONE man APPLIES to that ONE MAN, not EVERY OTHER MAN. EACH in his OWN ORDER.



So, your conclusion is: You will BE ON EARTH, when the Lord is IN THE AIR and the Lamb of God is exacting HIS WRATH upon the Earth and men WHO rejected Christ?

And you will BE ON EARTH when the Angels Sound the Trumps of Gods Judgement UPON the Earth ?

And you will BE ON EARTH when God pours out His Wrath and Indignation UPON the EARTH and UPON all men who REJECTED HIM?

Why?

Glory to God,
Taken

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Okay, a few things here. Firstly....I'm not sure I've seen anyone convincingly proove that when the bible talks about God's 'wrath upon the earth' that it is not just talking about the coming judgement upon the sinful population. As in: damnation versus salvation. And thus, as saved people by Christ's blood, any Christian upon the earth is not going to be under any more 'wrath' or 'hardship' or 'tribulation' than we or other Christians see on a day to day basis anyway. Christ said, in this world we WILL have tribulation. He also said we would escape the wrath to come. He also prayed that the Father would NOT take us out of this world. So...I just question the notion that this coming "nasty period of time" is a specific time frame where God pours out his ferocious anger on all the world and if the believers weren't yanked out, we'd be up for it to.
According to scripture; to Christ and Paul and John, things in this world will get worse; it will get worse because of sin and persecution and the consequences of that, because of the groaning of this earth and the birth pangs. But when God truly pours out his wrath on all people who have rejected him, it will be when the books are opened and they are judged and sent into eternal torment.
Secondly, I wasn't exactly aware of me advocating for Christ returning in the clouds and hovering there while he dolled out vengance on all of us below; us Christians having to dodge as best we could. How is it that you saw that as my conclusion? My conclusion was that AT Christ's return, we are Raptured to him (Matt 24:31; 1 Cor 15:23, 51-52; 1 Thess 4:15-17), receive our new bodies in the air (1 Cor 15:50-55), and then all other things that the bible speaks of at his return takes place; judgement of saved and unsaved (Matt 25:31-31,46; 2 Thess 1:5-10), both living and dead (Rev 20:11-15), and the recreation of the heavens and earth (2 pet 3:10-13). All these things happen AT Christ's return. The bible is not really unclear on that issue, so I do wonder where all the debate comes from.

Trekson said:

Hi Naomi, I’d like to take the opportunity to go over your outline of end-time events. Hopefully, by the time I’m done I will have eliminated what you consider: “Back to the idea of Christ 'defeating death' at his return, the Achilles heel on the earthly Millennial issue.”

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Hi Trekson, no worries! Although, I apologise...this will be a little long.

Let’s break down 1 Cor. 15:21-26: For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order:

Christ the firstfruits,- When Jesus became the actual firstfruits of the resurrection and after his ascension, we the church, while still alive also, by faith became firstfruits as well. This began by being the firstfruits to the receiving of the Holy Spirit. Rom. 8:23 – “ And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.” See also James 1:18.

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I see where you're going with this, and while yes...it may initially appear to hold some validity, I must say that on deeper reflection, the "firstfruits" Romans is talking about, is not quite the same as 1 Cor 15. Let me try and explain by showing scripture:

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. -1 Corinthians 15:22–24

And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience. -Romans 8:23–25

For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. -2 Corinthians 5:4-5

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change. Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. -James 1:17-18

Okay...where am I going with this. Jesus Christ was resurrected from the dead. He has his new resurrection body, the one that will never groan will illness, never long with eagerness for all those benefits and gifts that come with an 'imperishable' body. He is the firstfruits of this kind of body, this kind of resurrection. Without a doubt, no one else has this sort of 'firstfruits' yet. When we see mention of 'firstfruits' in Romans, or James, in reference to the Holy Spirit, we see it being referenced as a...down payment. A guarantee of something that we own, just don't yet possess. It's spoken of in terms of longing, of expectation, of future guarantee, something we wait for with patience and eagerness. And something, that 1 Cor 15 is quite clear on: we fully receive it AT Christ's return, "at his coming".

then at his coming those who belong to Christ. This is the second group (the raptured/resurrected church) to be resurrected but we should consider ourselves already resurrected by faith, we just await the reality. 2 Tim. 1:10 – “But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath (present tense) abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:” But we are still part of the first resurrection (Rev. 20:5). Rev. 20:13 is the second resurrection. You can’t have a first w/o at least a second.

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When you say "second group", do you mean, after Christ...him being the first?
I see 1 Cor 15 as not speaking of our 'resurrection through faith'...(our salvation), it assumes it, and tells us that at Christ's return, the guarantee that that salvation gave us, will be fulfilled.

As far as 2 Tim 1:10 being 'present tense' when Paul says that Christ has 'abolished death'...well...I suppose it depends on how you look at it, doesn't it? Is the defeat sure, the war won? Yes, absolutely, and we can know this, claim this. But is the victory actually claimed yet? Well...you tell me: Does death still claim Christians? We know it doesn't hold the weight it did, but we know that until Christ returns and puts and end to death as 'the last enemy', that victory is not 'consumated'.

But, yes, I would also agree that the "first resurrection" would be categorized at the moment a person is regenerated: salvation, going from death to life in that way. But, as I said before, 1 Cor 15 is talking about our physical resurrections, which is a different thing.

Trekson said:

Now let’s take a look at the latter part of your second scripture: 1 Co. 15:54-55 – “When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.“O death, where is your victory?O death, where is your sting?” I think that what you’re not understanding is that at this time this victory over death is only for the raptured/resurrected church, not for the whole earth.

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Well...see, I'd have to say it's not so cut and dried as that. If we're only looking at 1 Cor 15 then yes, you're right, it is only speaking to those saved. However, if we can piece together various verses from across scripture that speak of these events as being one and the same, then the issue is not so certain. Consider:

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats…And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” - Matthew 25:31-32,46

We note here that at Christ's return he will judge those living: good and evil, at the same time.

Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. - Matthew 13:36–43

In this parable Jesus tells us that at the end of the age, when Christ sends his angels to gather us (Matt 24:31), they will likewise gather the unjust, who will be judged and thrown into the firey furnance. Again...just and unjust being judged at the same time.


This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering—since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. -2 Thessalonians 1:5–10

Again, we see at Christ's return he will "inflict vengeance" on those who do not know God, and they will go away into the punishment of "etenal destruction". In essence? Death will be passed for them as well.

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. - Revelation 20:11–15

This is the passage that really helps wrap them up together. 1 Thess 4 tells us that at Christ's return...the Rapture, just before we are given our new imperishable bodies (1 Cor 15), the 'dead in Christ rise first'. But, if we see in these verses:

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. - Daniel 12:2

Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. - John 5:28–29

And the "Great White Throne" Judgement passage, that both just and unjust are 'raised and judged' at the same time, them the logical conclusion is that not only are these events all one and the same, but that, yes, when "death loses it's sting" for the Church at that great event, then death, indeed, is over. And, in point of fact, we could say that 1 Cor 15:25-26 makes that point anyway...death is the last enemy...when Christ defeats it, he does so so he can deliver the Kingdom to the Father. It would be a rather poor showing, don't you think, if death was still running rampant, even through the unsaved? Death would still BE....

For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Then comes the end, Nothing here implies immediately after. The “end” aka, “the day of the Lord” has many components and lasts for over a thousand years. Where do we see this? In the chain of events ( all the judgments and events in Rev. up to and through the events given in Rev. 20:5-21:1. In vss. 5-7 a 1000yrs. is mentioned three times for emphasis, imo. If one were to go over all the prophecies in both testaments involving the day, that day, etc., all referring to the day of the Lord, it is impossible that it will all occur in a single moment.

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While it's true nothing DEMANDS it be immediately after, the natural reading of 'then' rather implies it.


But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.
Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.
-1 Corinthians 15:23-24

First Paul tells us there will be an order to it, a timing, a sequence. Christ, he tells us, is what we are "aiming" for, what we long for, what we can look to for what we will become. The 'firstfruits'. "Then"...AT HIS COMING (very time specific) those who belong to him. And "then" comes the end, "when" he delivers the kingdom to the Father. Paul gives us another qualifier on 'when' the 'when' is. "After" destroying every rule and authority...and after defeating death. The passage then goes on to give us a very specific understanding about WHAT will mean the 'death of death'. Put simply? It's the Rapture. It's our perishable being given imperishable. When what Jesus bought us on the cross is finally bestowed upon us, the last enemy will be defeated totally. And this is the moment that the Kingdom ends.
It's all linked. You can't have the Rapture without having the end of death, or without having the end of the kingdom which is then delivered to the Father.

Trekson said:

when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. When does scripture say he does this? The scriptures speak forward in faith after the wrath of the lamb but before the wrath of God in Rev.11:15.

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For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all. -1 Corinthians 15:22–28

The problem with saying that this can only happen after the Rapture of the Church and during the Tribulation period (ie Rev 11 reference above) is that other scriptures do not support it. The 1 Cor 15 passage does not...it says it happens when death is defeated...and then it tells us that death is defeated when the Rapture occurs, so I'm not sure how you can weave your way around that one, but then we also consider these:

that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, -Ephesians 1:20–22


Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” -John 18:36

Paul outright tells us that Jesus is ruling and reigning right now, putting everything under his feet, right now. The only thing left will BE death...which we know, thanks to 1 Cor 15, will be dealt a death blow at his return and the Rapture. Jesus also tells us in John that his Kingdom is not of this world. He says it clearly. He repeats it. So...

For he must reign (see bold below) until he has put all his enemies under his feet. While he is presently seated at the right hand of God and all rule and authority are given to him, he is not yet ready for that to become an actual reality on earth. The prophesied events and Satan, who is still ruler of the earth at this time and has been since the fall of Adam, are given their time to play out the events before it becomes a near fulfillment. Satan’s rule over the earth until after the final 42 months (Rev. 13:5 and 12:12). This will conclude right after Armageddon when he begins his earthly reign as King of Kings and Lord of Lords (Rev. 19:15-16). The far fulfillment will be post millennium, after Satan is let loose again and God destroys them all. They won’t truly be under his feet until after that time. To me, this when the 2 Pet. 3:10 (read context vss. 7-13) comes true. It’s like the beginning of the end literally comes true at this time, after the events of 2 Pet. 3:7 and the judgment spoken there is the GWTJ which scripture shows is after the millennium, after death is finally and fully defeated and just before the new heavens and new earth, so in that part at least post-millennium is true to scripture.

The last enemy to be destroyed is death. As I said above it won’t happen until after the GWTJ because it has to cover the whole earth, not just the church. (Is. 25:8, the covering and veil is death).

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See...I'm sorry, but I see no biblical evidence for an earthly reign. In fact, what I see you saying here is, "Jesus must reign until he can start to reign". When I consider this against Jesus himself saying "my kingdom is not of this world". When I consider what scripture tells me of his current reign, and what will happen upon his return (see all my previous replies), then I simply cannot see where you are arriving at such conclusions, biblical or otherwise.

As a final observation, I found it interesting that you recognized the chronology in Corinthians by the usage of the word “then” and “when”. You will find this same chronology throughout Revelations but John uses “And I” or And when”, etc. Almost every verse begins with “And” or something similar, speaking of things that follow one another.

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And I find it interesting that you are attempting to deny the chronology of 1 Cor 15 even while attempting to use it to support it in Revelation!
The problem with trying to tie the two together is that they are not the same genre. At all. 1 Cor is a letter. Paul is outright telling his readers 'this, then this, then that'. However, Revelation is apocolyptic literature, which means it was given to John in visions. He was to write what he saw. Imagine trying to write down your dreams. Often you struggle to put time and sense to them...the best you could do would to be to write them at they came to you, as YOU saw them chronologically. But...does this necessarily mean the visions themselves were of chronological events? That really depends on the vision and what God is attempting to show and tell us, doesn't it? If you're shown a picture of a cat, and stubbornly try and see an elephant, you're not going to make much sense of the image you're looking at.
And thus is goes with many who attempt to read Revelation 'literally' and 'chronologically'. They toss genre and all reasonable understanding of WHY and WHAT God decided to use to communicate this very important last book of the bible.

Taken said:

^ On that we agree.
^ On the we disagree.
Because; Christian is not the defining factor.
Many calling themselves Christians, are not saved or born again.
And; Others Not calling themselves Christians, ARE saved and born again.
In other words: those saved and born again IN Christ.

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Do you know what "Christian" means? It first popped up in the early church when followers of Jesus were referred to as "little christ's"...because their behavior, speech and desire to follow him. In the bible it is referenced as such...people who were disciples, members of the church, those who walked in new birth and the Holy Spirit. They were often called Saints, or just brothers and sisters, or the Church.
And I think, when it comes down to it, it doesn't matter a lick what we call 'em or how we define it, all that will matter is the state of a person's heart and if they have Christ in their place for their sins.
But I think getting twitchy over the name "christian" is perhaps maybe taking a bit too far. By and large everyone who uses the term uses it in good faith. Of course there are those out there who are false Christians. Through ignorance or malice. It doesn't much matter for the purpose here. If we can't use the term 'christian' to refer to those who have salvation through faith and grace, then what else do we call them? Need we specify every single time we're talking that we're only referring to the genuine? I think that is assumed, no?

^ On that, we agree.
^ On that, we agree.
^ On that, we agree, somewhat...meaning.
Many will be on earth, who rejected Him, and took upon them the mark of the beast.
However there is a remnant ~ of mortals
Who believe, and remain mortal, without the mark of the beast, reserved to repopulate the earth.

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Hmm, on this we disagree. I'd love to see some scriptures that tell us about a time period of mortals and immortals living it up together. Need a cup of sugar? Just pop next door, your supernatural 'forever saved' neighbour is sure to have some!
Some people say that the people who got the upgrade in the Rapture will live 'in heaven'...or a floating NJ while the peasants will populate downstairs. I think I saw that movie. It didn't end well. But I'm not sure I've seen it in scripture anywhere.

No reason you can't meet Christ in the clouds today, but get your fill of Death More Abundantly first I guess