Calvinism is a Cult

Lady Crosstalk said:

It is NOT my accusation--it is my observation. (See Job 9:22 for evidence--Job actually calls himself innocent--"blameless" in Job 9:21)

God could have prevented the killing of the righteous martyrs, but He did not. He did not contravene the will of wicked men to murder them. The wicked are storing up the wrath of God for what they have done. In the End, NO ONE will ever be able to say that God is unjust.

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God allowing things to happen, and [as you said earlier] actually taking the life of the righteous are 2 different things.

As for Job, of course he would say he is righteous; He was righteous in Christ. He knew that he was declared righteous before God for the Savior's sake.

Mjh29 said:

They were what way?
Sinful. Fallen. Depraved. Exactly.

Who's children were the ones sitting on His lap? The children of those who were following Him. And who were following Him? The people who believed in Him; the believers.

These were the children of the believers, not the children of pagans.
There is no support for the fact that children are born pure, and in fact there is much evidence against it. Please, do not rely on what you feel is right; look at the Scriptures and see that, even if they are speaking metaphorically, these metaphors are not eluding to anything "pure" when they speak or lies and snake's venom.

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Yes, she needs to be Biblical. Not sentimental. Not emotional. Not subjective. Not touchy feelings. Biblical. Contextually and exegetically biblical.

Mjh29 said:

They were what way?
Sinful. Fallen. Depraved. Exactly.

Who's children were the ones sitting on His lap? The children of those who were following Him. And who were following Him? The people who believed in Him; the believers.

These were the children of the believers, not the children of pagans.
There is no support for the fact that children are born pure, and in fact there is much evidence against it. Please, do not rely on what you feel is right; look at the Scriptures and see that, even if they are speaking metaphorically, these metaphors are not eluding to anything "pure" when they speak or lies and snake's venom.

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Are you saying that the children of believers are saved from birth?? That turns the gospel on its head.

Mjh29 said:

God allowing things to happen, and [as you said earlier] actually taking the life of the righteous are 2 different things.

As for Job, of course he would say he is righteous; He was righteous in Christ. He knew that he was declared righteous before God for the Savior's sake.

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If God "permits" something to happen, He still willed to permit it. See James 4:15 for confirmation of what I have said.

Lady Crosstalk said:

Are you saying that the children of believers are saved from birth?? That turns the gospel on its head.

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No, I believe that they are predestined from birth. Your theology is the one that turns things inside-out. You claim you have to accept Christ to be saved, but how can babies accept Christ? And since God can't change their hearts, and it has to be their own choice, are they all then doomed?

Lady Crosstalk said:

If God "permits" something to happen, He still willed to permit it. See James 4:15 for confirmation of what I have said.

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Yes it is part of His will. But that does not mean that He kills them; He allows them to be killed. He allows the universe to operate with free agency.

Mjh29 said:

No, I believe that they are predestined from birth. Your theology is the one that turns things inside-out. You claim you have to accept Christ to be saved, but how can babies accept Christ? And since God can't change their hearts, and it has to be their own choice, are they all then doomed?

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No--because I believe that the Blood of Jesus was certainly shed for those who were/are incapable of choosing.

Mjh29 said:

Yes it is part of His will. But that does not mean that He kills them; He allows them to be killed. He allows the universe to operate with free agency.

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I thought Calvinists do not believe in "free agency"? I guess some do and some don't?

Lady Crosstalk said:

I thought Calvinists do not believe in "free agency"? I guess some do and some don't?

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I'm actually glad you asked [not being sarcastic I promise!]

This is a common misconception that is spread to give Calvinism a bad name. We believe in free agency, but not free will. [stay with me here, the term is misleading.]

Free Agency -- God does give us the freedom to operate within His universe; I woke up and put on a green shirt, had eggs for breakfast, and decided to hop on here since I'm off today. That is free agency; the ability to make inconsequential choices within God's universe.

Free will -- I believe we have a fallen will, we as people are inclined to sin and not to God; which is why Pharaoh, for instance, refused to believe the miracles of God, and refused to let God's people go. It is why the Israelites , even after witnessing all those miracles and wonders of God, still turned away. Men are inclined to go against God, and run to sin; we even find ways to sin even without thinking about it! Now, if we stopped right there, this indeed would be a bleak theology, but the Good News is this; Christ came to save us from our sins! God changes the hearts of men, and allows them to see Him for what He truly is; the loving, caring, deeply devoted God of the Scriptures.

Lady Crosstalk said:

No--because I believe that the Blood of Jesus was certainly shed for those who were/are incapable of choosing.

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Question: Can you show one verse that says men are saved by choosing?

Secondly, do you believe Jesus saw who would believe and so chose to save them?

Mjh29 said:

I'm actually glad you asked [not being sarcastic I promise!]

This is a common misconception that is spread to give Calvinism a bad name. We believe in free agency, but not free will. [stay with me here, the term is misleading.]

Free Agency -- God does give us the freedom to operate within His universe; I woke up and put on a green shirt, had eggs for breakfast, and decided to hop on here since I'm off today. That is free agency; the ability to make inconsequential choices within God's universe.

Free will -- I believe we have a fallen will, we as people are inclined to sin and not to God; which is why Pharaoh, for instance, refused to believe the miracles of God, and refused to let God's people go. It is why the Israelites , even after witnessing all those miracles and wonders of God, still turned away. Men are inclined to go against God, and run to sin; we even find ways to sin even without thinking about it! Now, if we stopped right there, this indeed would be a bleak theology, but the Good News is this; Christ came to save us from our sins! God changes the hearts of men, and allows them to see Him for what He truly is; the loving, caring, deeply devoted God of the Scriptures.

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I see no difference between them. "Free will" is often the term chosen to apply to moral choices but I see no Biblical warrant for supposing that a human being cannot choose to do good as well as to do evil. Did God force Adam and Eve to do evil? I think we have a "helper" in the Holy Spirit, but the choice is still ours--otherwise, why did Paul speak of those who "grieved" Him? Those who love God follow Christ's teachings along with the teachings of Yahweh.

Mjh29 said:

Yes it is part of His will. But that does not mean that He kills them; He allows them to be killed. He allows the universe to operate with free agency.

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When a Christian dies in an earthquake or hurricane, who is responsible?

Lady Crosstalk said:

When a Christian dies in an earthquake or hurricane, who is responsible?

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Mankind who sinned in Adam.

Who do you blame? God?

Preacher4Truth said:

Question: Can you show one verse that says men are saved by choosing?

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Can you show one verse which says that obedience to the Gospel is NOT a choice, or that obedience per se is not a choice?

Paul tells us that it is a choice: But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? (Rom 10:16)

And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? (Heb 3:18)

Stephen tells us that it is a choice: Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers (Acts 7:51,52)

Preacher4Truth said:

Secondly, do you believe Jesus saw who would believe and so chose to save them?

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Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (1 Peter 1:1,2)

Lady Crosstalk said:

I see no difference between them. "Free will" is often the term chosen to apply to moral choices but I see no Biblical warrant for supposing that a human being cannot choose to do good as well as to do evil. Did God force Adam and Eve to do evil? I think we have a "helper" in the Holy Spirit, but the choice is still ours--otherwise, why did Paul speak of those who "grieved" Him? Those who love God follow Christ's teachings along with the teachings of Yahweh.

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The difference is that man, as a moral agent, is incapable of choosing correctly unless God actually changes their hearts [which is why the Israelites, although they saw so many miracles and great wonders] still turned to their idols. Because as a moral agent, they are incapable, and indeed want to go away from God. And they will never do anything they do not want to do. God changes their want to. Free agency is merely making mundane choices day-to-day; choices that take little to no thought, and have little to no effect in the grand scheme of things.

Mjh29 said:

The difference is that man, as a moral agent, is incapable of choosing correctly unless God actually changes their hearts [which is why the Israelites, although they saw so many miracles and great wonders] still turned to their idols. Because as a moral agent, they are incapable, and indeed want to go away from God. And they will never do anything they do not want to do. God changes their want to. Free agency is merely making mundane choices day-to-day; choices that take little to no thought, and have little to no effect in the grand scheme of things.

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I think you are making arbitrary distinctions. What if I was a young mother, woken by the sound of my baby crying, and I chose to tell myself, "He/she will go back to sleep," and then rolled over and went back to sleep. Tell me, was that a trivial choice that I made or was it a moral choice?

Lady Crosstalk said:

I think you are making arbitrary distinctions. What if I was a young mother, woken by the sound of my baby crying, and I chose to tell myself, "He/she will go back to sleep," and then rolled over and went back to sleep. Tell me, was that a trivial choice that I made or was it a moral choice?

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Free agency. The mother made a simple choice.

"HA! What if something was seriously wrong with the child!"

Did the mother know this? No. Was there anything hindering her from making her choice? No. The only thing that stops free agency in making some choices is the fallen will of man.

Mjh29 said:

Free agency. The mother made a simple choice.

"HA! What if something was seriously wrong with the child!"

Did the mother know this? No. Was there anything hindering her from making her choice? No. The only thing that stops free agency in making some choices is the fallen will of man.

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What if she suspected the baby was ill?

Lady Crosstalk said:

What if she suspected the baby was ill?

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Still, nothing was hindering her from making her decision.

Mjh29 said:

Still, nothing was hindering her from making her decision.

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Perhaps we have gotten to the heart of this situation. Love and concern for her baby comes from where?