Can We as Saved Christians Lose Our Salvation?

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CoreIssue

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How did I defend Jane Doe?
What was the context??

I could defend Adolph Hitler, depending on the context. Point me to the actual POST where I "defended" her.

As for the Catholic Church being a "cult" - that's YOUR opinion for which you have ZERO evidence.
The ravings of an angry anti-Catholic don't amount to a hill of beans without evidence . . .

I asked defend her to make sure I was remembering. If you didn't, good.
 

marks

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No - it doesn't.
It is full of admonishments and conditions., as I underlined in post #74.

If you go through those verses - there are THIRTEEN (13) conditions and admonishments to qualify.
You only posted a couple of verses - completely OUT of context. I provided the FULL context . . .

Those are what we are to do, however, they are not shown as qualifications given to modify the previous statement. This is a simple declarative statement without modifiers or qualifiers, other than that it is addressed to those who have died and risen with Jesus, which is to be born again according to the language of Romans 6.

When Christ, Who is our life appears, you also will appear with Him in glory. It will happen.

Now, here's something for you to do. Kill your members that are on the earth . . .

But this does not modify or invalidate the previous statement.

Much love!
Mark
 

BreadOfLife

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Those are what we are to do, however, they are not shown as qualifications given to modify the previous statement. This is a simple declarative statement without modifiers or qualifiers, other than that it is addressed to those who have died and risen with Jesus, which is to be born again according to the language of Romans 6.

When Christ, Who is our life appears, you also will appear with Him in glory. It will happen.

Now, here's something for you to do. Kill your members that are on the earth . . .

But this does not modify or invalidate the previous statement.

Much love!
Mark
As usual - you just don't get it.

Context is never your friend because you cherry-pick Scripture to make it fit YOUR idea of what it should say instead of trusting in God . . .
 

marks

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As usual - you just don't get it.

Context is never your friend because you cherry-pick Scripture to make it fit YOUR idea of what it should say instead of trusting in God . . .

Here yet again . . . rather than offering an actual argument, ad hominems. Big Surprise! Attack my faith rather than my post. Altogether too common.

Much love!
mark
 
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BreadOfLife

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Here yet again . . . rather than offering an actual argument, ad hominems. Big Surprise! Attack my faith rather than my post. Altogether too common.

Much love!
mark
I already destroyed your argument back in post #74.
No need to repeat the carnage - unless you want me to . . .
 

marks

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I already destroyed your argument back in post #74.
No need to repeat the carnage - unless you want me to . . .

Actually, no, you didn't address the argument at all:

That's NOT what Colossians 3 says at ALL.

The text repeatedly admonishes the born again believer NOT to fall into sin and to cooperate with the grace we've been given:

Col. 3:1-17
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts. And whatever you DO, whether in word or deed, DO it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

Nothing in this passage quoted by you says that there will be ones who were raised with Christ who do not appear with Him in glory.

Yes we are to do these things. No, these admonitions do not negate the truth of verse 4.

So at the end of the day, rather than point to the specific verse that says there will be born again children of God who will not appear with Jesus when He is revealed . . . ad hominems.

And an invitation to experience your carnage. Gee! That would be letting your gentleness be known to all!

Much love!
Mark
 

quietthinker

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A concept that is held by many Christian people is that eternal salvation IS ASSURED once we have accepted Christ as our personal Savior and have become a "new creature" in Christ.
But if this were so, that once we have received God's grace, it is impossible to lose it . . . THEN . . .
. . . WHY does Paul say, "I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest
. . . I MYSELF SHOULD BE A CASTAWAY?" 1 Corinthians 9:27
. . . WHY can some RECEIVE "THE GRACE OF GOD IN VAIN?" 2 Corinthians 6:1
. . . WHY must we be "FAITHFUL UNTO DEATH" to receive a "crown of life?" Revelation 2:10
. . . WHY does Peter say, "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, THE LATTER END IS WORSE WITH THEM THAN THE BEGINNING. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to return from the holy commandment delivered unto them?" 2 Peter 2:20, 21
. . . WHY are we told that only "he that ENDURETH TO THE END shall be saved?" Matthew 10:22.
. . . WHY are we told "For it is IMPOSSIBLE for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, . . . If they shall fall away, to RENEW THEM AGAIN UNTO REPENTANCE?" Hebrews 6:4-6
. . . WHY must we KEEP OURSELVES into the LOVE OF GOD? Jude 21
. . . WHY are RESURRECTED SAINTS the only ones upon whom the "SECOND DEATH hath NO POWER?" Revelation 20:6
. . . WHY are we told "IF WE SIN WILFULLY after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there REMAINETH NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS, He that despised Moses's law died without mercy . . . OF HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT . . . shall he be . . . worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing?" Hebrews 10:26, 28, 29
. . . WHY must we "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling?" Philippians 2:12
. . . WHY are we told "IF WE BE DEAD with him, we shall also live with him: IF WE SUFFER, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, HE ALSO WILL DENY US?" 2 Timothy 2:11-13
. . . WHY are we told "Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? SO RUN, THAT YE MAY OBTAIN?" 1 Corinthians 9:24
. . . WHY are we told "add to your faith virtue . . . knowledge . . . temperance . . .
patience . . . godliness . . . brotherly love . . . charity . . . he that lacketh these things is blind, . . . and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins . . . give diligence to MAKE YOUR CALLING AND ELECTION SURE, for IF ye do these things ye shall never fall?" 2 Peter 1:5-10

From the above Scriptures it becomes readily apparent that heavenly salvation is dependent on more than JUST BECOMING a true Christian. Faithfulness unto death will be required for all who will obtain the crown of life. Revelation 2:10

As we consider these Scriptures, further questions come to mind:
What is implied by being faithful unto Death? What happens to those who fail?
Will only Christians receive salvation? Will all Christians go to heaven? How
will God's will be done in earth as it is in heaven? Matthew 6:10.
"By their Fruits you shall know them," says our Lord [Matthew 7:18-21]. But fruits aren't grown instantaneously; they neither come in a fit of ecstasy, nor should they come at the moment death
closes our eyes. This process is one which the Apostle Paul terms "being transformed by the
renewing of your mind." [Romans 12:2] These fruits of character can come in only one way -- and that is the way of the cross, the strait and narrow gate, a way of self denial, of daily taking up our crosses, presenting our bodies, "living sacrifices," and being dead "with Him." This class is termed by our Lord as his "little flock," [Luke 12:32] for they are a "peculiar people zealous of good works" [Titus 2:14], to whom the scriptures promise the chief blessings as overcomers [Revelation 3:20].
We are admonished to make our election sure by overcoming. For the most part it is to a rocky, lonely and narrow trail is where the sign posts are pointing. Without endurance the race cannot and will not be won.

One will say, but you are encouraging salvation by works.....Oh what a slippery statement this is and any believer connected to the vine will discern its nature. Are we not to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance? Will we not be judged by our works? Is it not understood that the works of the Spirit are not the works of the flesh? It was not for nothing that Jesus repeatedly said, 'he who has ears to hear, hear'
If love for righteousness is interpreted as works to gain Salvation by impressing God we have turned the message of Grace on its head.
 
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VictoryinJesus

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Another thing – remember that Jesus taught that believers CAN fall away in the Parable of the Sower:
Luke 8:13

"And the ones (seeds) on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy; but these have no root, they believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away."

This is NOT about a person who rejected Christ – but RECEIVED Him and later fell away.



Consider Ezekiel 36:26
[26] A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Luke 8:6
[6] And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.

Those that “received Him”:
Luke 8:8 And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
 

BreadOfLife

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Actually, no, you didn't address the argument at all:
Nothing in this passage quoted by you says that there will be ones who were raised with Christ who do not appear with Him in glory.

Yes we are to do these things. No, these admonitions do not negate the truth of verse 4.

So at the end of the day, rather than point to the specific verse that says there will be born again children of God who will not appear with Jesus when He is revealed . . . ad hominems.

And an invitation to experience your carnage. Gee! That would be letting your gentleness be known to all!

Much love!
Mark
Since you removed all of the text that I underlined - here it is again for your review.

No less that THIRTEEN admonishments to cooperate with God's grace.
Nothing is "automatic" simply because we become born again. We must endure in faith and cooperate with God's grace . . .

Col. 3:1-17
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts. And whatever you DO, whether in word or deed, DO it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.


Don't just quote a verse or two and declare a doctrine until you have presented it in its ENTIRE CONTEXT . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Not even mentioned in the BibleSince it didn't exist the time
Then your claim that He "condemned" the Catholic Church is just another one of your LIES.

Yup - that's what I thought . . .
 

APAK

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@Berean ...next on your OP list of verses...

The question of the meaning of endurance (of faith) and to the end…….

When God speaks of endurance, he is speaking of continuing on in faith even though we have lapses, some serious, that detract and even stunt our walk in the spirit given to us. God says he chastised those he loves when they suffer tribulations caused by SINNING. He chastised them as sons/daughters for those that sin and fall in faith, not the perfect ones that always overcome temptation as if they were a Christ (Heb 12:7). They cannot be found in reality. Only in the minds of the fake lost.

Because one lacks faith and those that are overcome in sin, he/she still endures in the end as they always return, on course again, with the guidance of the spirit within them.

If God established some kind of 'passing' criteria of spiritual endurance even after he gave us the spirit of life under his grace, then that would be an impossible situation for mankind to ever become saved. It would be impossible. His standard is perfection that is why he gave us Christ.


God is not cruel. Religious and fake believers are dishonest and cruel as they themselves lack the important, and essential spirit of salvation within themselves. They twist scripture to convince others and to also sooth their nervy minds of insecurity.


Some religious ones have even compiled an index of types of sin that indicates severity that can bar one from salvation. They use this index to formulate those that are still saved and those that are not saved and need reconverted, somehow? These are the lost ones that are outside of the Kingdom of God and attempt to climb in by their own means.


In 2 Tim 2:10 Timothy stays on track in faith and endures so he is worthy to bring the gospel and cause others to gain salvation. Timothy is really saying he is a true believer and strong in faith that motivates him to bring others to Christ. He is not perfect. Timothy is not suggesting sin indicates the lack of endurance as endurance is a condition experienced over time and not based on a moment or an incident.


In 2 Tim 2:12 it says if we endure, we shall reign with Christ. Notice in this verse that endurance indicates it means the opposite of denying Christ. Now if someone sins and regains faith again, does he deny Christ? Of course not, he/she still endures on.


Those that endure to the end are the truly saved ones.


This subject of endurance is then also relevant to the next verse on your list: Rev 2:10.


(Rev 2:10) Do not fear the things which you are about to suffer. Behold, the Devil is about to throw some of you into prison, you may be tried have tribulation ten days. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.


Jesus is motivating these believers about to be tortured and killed for their faith. He motivated them by saying continue to be faithful because your end shall be immortality.


This is NOT a litmus test verse of faith for true believers that if one waivers or sins then they would not gain true salvation! If this were the case then none would gain the crown of life, not one, ever. Jesus knew some would lose some of their strength and faith. He knew that many would waiver in their faith. He still promised all in the spirit, both the strong and firm in faith and the timid and weak and ashamed, the crown of life in the end.


There is nothing in this verse that hints of someone losing their salvation.. Those that think this way are trying to find any verse such as this to ‘kill off’ the notion that true believers can never lose their salvation even when they waiver in faith or have a chronic sin.


The expression ‘crown of life’ in this verse is also used and with the same meaning in James 1:12. It simply means immortality.


(Jas 1:12) Blessed is the man that endures temptation. For when he has been approved, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord has promised to them that love him.


Again, not one man that lived or lives or shall live will not always overcome all trials and temptations in their life. They can lose their way, and their faith can become ineffective. Whos is to judge was level of faith one has at any time, and how do they know of these matters inside someone's heart?


If scripture means that we shall have immortality only if we ALWAYS overcome, then NO human shall attain eternal life and immortality.


Today, most who are true believers in Christ will not be faced with severe testing of their faith from the point of a sword, the guillotine, firing squad, or in a torture chambers as in the earliest days of Christianity. Many will live in this world of common evil and temptation and pass on.
Most people today must endure the severe testing of their faith from false teachers and the enticements of the modern world and its pleasures. I believe God’s words of truth in James 1: 12, Rev 2:10 and other scripture regard all types of trials and temptations old or new, subtle or obvious that tests one’s faith and standing (growth status) in Christ. It is not a litmus test for ones salvation.


When in James 1:12 it says to be blessed, it means when we overcome and even are tempted and sometimes do not overcome, we are always eventually approved and encouraged by our Father to soldier on in faith and to continue transforming ourselves into the image and spirit of Christ. This is our human condition and reality in this body and current life. True believers always endure to the end because they know when in firm and unwavering faith that the spirit implanted and bathing and nurturing them today cannot leave them. They are saved because they shall all endure, despite the man/woman in question.

Bless you,

APAK
 

VictoryinJesus

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Can we lose Salvation?
Consider is Salvation of men or is Salvation of God?

Ezekiel 36:26
[26] A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

What is this stony heart? Table of stone. Notice God is the One that removes the stone and gives a heart of flesh. Notice God is the One that put in a new spirit.

2 Corinthians 3:3
[3] Forasmuch as you are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.


2 Corinthians 3:5-7
[5] Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; [6] Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. [7] But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

Who removes the stony heart out of your flesh, and gives a heart of flesh?
Our sufficiency is OF GOD. Not the sufficiency of man...But OF God.

Ezekiel 36:27
[27] And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them .

To say one loses Salvation based off the seed falling still ...There was(is) only one ground (heart) the seed falls on and takes root and endures...endures heat and thorns and is not devoured by the fowls. Luke 8:6-8
[6] And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture. < not that one.

And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it. < not that one.

And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. < that one. God gives the heart. God gives the Spirit. God even gives the increase. And here we see “He who has ears to hear (what the Spirit speaks) let him hear.”

Can we lose Salvation?
If Salvation is of men then yes we can lose it.
If Salvation is OF GOD then no.
Acts 5:38-39
[38] And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: [39] But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
 
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