Hermeneutics vs. "Herd-meneutics"

CoreIssue said:

The church is built upon Petra not Petros. Petra is Jesus.

And yes it was future tense. I never said differently and most assuredly am not Catholic.

As far as when the church began I believe it was at the resurrection.

Just as Israel began when Jacob became Israel it was not full-fledged instantly. It grew over time.

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That's ok. Nothing really to pick at. Technically, I think Yeshua was referring to the rock of Peter's confession. A little play on words going on.

Copperhead said:

No, God is not Origen or Augustine. Finding spiritualized esoteric meanings buried within a passage using Gnostic philosophical principles is counter to YHVH's standard.

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Taking away the key of knowledge (which is the hindering of the Spirit) is the woe of the lawyers among Israel given them by Christ, which you now share.

So be it.

Dave L said:

Congregation = assembly = church. It's all the same and a major wrench in the works of Dispensationalists false prophecy.

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Thanks for your 'opinion'.

prism said:

Thanks for your 'opinion'.

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It's fact if you study your basic Greek dictionaries and lexicons.

Enoch111 said:

You keep bringing up this point OUT OF CONTEXT.

1. When did He say it?
2. Why did He say it ?
3. Where did He say it?

Find out the answers to those questions and you will see how foolish you sound.

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Here's a pericope of passages that refute the idea of a physical kingdom (millennium).

“And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matthew 3:2) (KJV 1900)

“And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.” (Matthew 11:12) (KJV 1900)

“Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” (Matthew 16:28) (KJV 1900)

“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” (1 Corinthians 15:50)

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3) (KJV 1900)

“Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)

“Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.” (John 18:36) (KJV 1900)

“And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:” (Luke 17:20) (KJV 1900)

“Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:21) (KJV 1900)

“But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken you.” (Luke 11:20)

“because we are not looking at what can be seen but at what cannot be seen. For what can be seen is temporary, but what cannot be seen is eternal.” (2 Corinthians 4:18)

“Now when the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus performed, they began to say to one another, “This is certainly the Prophet who is to come into the world.” Then Jesus, because he knew they were going to come and seize him by force to make him king, withdrew again up the mountainside alone.” (John 6:14–15)

“He delivered us from the power of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of the Son he loves,” (Colossians 1:13)

“When Jesus saw that he answered intelligently, He said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And no one dared to question Him any longer.” (Mark 12:34) (HCSB)

“for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.” (Romans 14:17) (HCSB)

CoreIssue said:

So what?

The body of Christ is two heirs, church and Israel. Not church and church.

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God has only one people, Israel AKA the congregation of the Lord AKA the Church.

“That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:” (Ephesians 1:10) (KJV 1900)

“For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.” (1 Corinthians 12:13) (KJV 1900)

“That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:” (Ephesians 2:12–16) (KJV 1900)

Dave L said:

It's fact if you study your basic Greek dictionaries and lexicons.

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Apparently, the vast majority (hundreds) of NT translational scholars are in error according to your inflated way of thinking. It's your attack on those who are way more studied in the original languages than you.

prism said:

Apparently, the vast majority (hundreds) of NT translational scholars are in error according to your inflated way of thinking. It's your attack on those who are way more studied in the original languages than you.

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Do you read Greek? Have you any Greek dictionaries or lexicons?

Dave L said:

Do you read Greek? Have you any Greek dictionaries or lexicons?

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Yes, I can read Greek, but that is not my point. I showed where only one translation translated the word ἐκκλησία, as 'church' where all the others translated it as congregation or assembly. You seem gung-ho in insisting that it ought to be translated 'church' against the better judgment of scholarship, (NASB; ESV; NKJV, NIV, AMP etc. etc.). The only one you hold to is the one that fits your narrative of the 'Church' existing in the OT even in the face of the fact that Jesus said 'He WILL build His Church'.

ἐκκλησία- ας, ἡ. (1) in a general sense, as a gathering of citizens assembly, meeting (AC 19.32); (2) as the assembled people of Israel congregation (HE 2.12); (3) as the assembled Christian community church, congregation, meeting (RO 16.5); (4) as the totality of Christians living in one place church (AC 8.1); (5) as the universal body of believers church (EP 1.22). (Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament).

Dave L said:

God has only one people, Israel AKA the congregation of the Lord AKA the Church.

“That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:” (Ephesians 1:10) (KJV 1900)

“For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.” (1 Corinthians 12:13) (KJV 1900)

“That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:” (Ephesians 2:12–16) (KJV 1900)

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That sounds like two house theory that is going thru some of the Messianic Congregations. From what I can tell, two house theory is just the old British Israelism updated for a world view. Both work under the assumption that there were 10 lost tribes which the scripture refutes quite handily.

I had written, the Bible doesn't say it's not Rome, right? to which you replied . . .

Phoneman777 said:

Show me where in the Bible it says the rapture is "secret"

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But that is non-responsive.

I'm asking about Rome, and you're answering about the rapture, and the tribulation. But about Rome?

Phoneman777 said:

Why not? The church is referred to as a "chaste virgin" woman, but also as a "temple", right? As long as there is no noun/pronoun gender disagreement - such as the case where Jesuit Preterists attempt to make Antiochus the Chump the "little horn" of Daniel 8 by totally ignoring noun/pronoun gender agreement.

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That's just the point. There is in this case gender disagreement, which is only solved by an antecedent that can be both masculine and neuter at the same time. There is one instance I'm aware of, that being the Holy Spirit.

Phoneman777 said:

Much love to you as well!

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Thank you!!

Mark

Phoneman777 said:

"sent and signified" aka "sign-a-fied" which is the very nature of the prophecies of Scripture!

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I don't think that is what the word means. It actually is used in several places of making something known, not encrypting it in symbols.

For instance:

John 12:32-33 LITV
(32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself.
(33) But He said this, signifying by what kind of death He was about to die.

"lifted up" was to them as we would say, go to the chamber, for us oldsters, or "their gonna stick a needle in your arm!"

Jesus was communicating how He would be killed. The words seems to be about letting people know things.

Much love!
mark

Phoneman777 said:

And yes, Historicism does "interpret symbols or figures in the Bible as metaphors for actual events, nations, or persons of history"...because that's exactly what one does when dealing with messages which are "sent and signified" aka "sign-a-fied" which is the very nature of the prophecies of Scripture!

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There is not real problem with that as long as one uses the scripture to define what the symbols / figures / metaphors mean. Usually they are defined within the passage itself. When it is not, then usually how it is defined is in the OT. The HS is a stickler about defining things early on in scripture and usually the Law of First Mention comes into play. Not always, but mostly.

A good example of this is the Parable of the Mustard Tree. Matthew 13.

The kingdom is like a mustard tree. Right there, it is exposing something out of the ordinary. A mustard tree is nothing more than a short bush. But this one is growing large enough to become a tree that the birds are nesting in. I would see that as the kingdom covering the whole earth, not like a human derived kingdom that only covers a portion of the earth.

But the focus is the birds. Who are they? Well, in the previous parable of the Sower, the birds are the evil ones. Now we see them nesting in the tree of the kingdom. Combined with the parable of the leaven, what is going on is that sin and corruption via the birds and the leaven in the kingdom. Leaven in scripture is almost always a symbol of sin and corruption.

That seems to comport with the passages in Revelation 2 and 12 that Yeshua will rule with a rod of iron. Evidently sin (and death according to Isaiah) will still be around in the kingdom and Yeshua will deal heavy handed with it.

Copperhead said:

That sounds like two house theory that is going thru some of the Messianic Congregations. From what I can tell, two house theory is just the old British Israelism updated for a world view. Both work under the assumption that there were 10 lost tribes which the scripture refutes quite handily.

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Since Christ abolished circumcision, nothing remains to make one a physical Jew or member of Israel in the biblical sense.

prism said:

Yes, I can read Greek, but that is not my point. I showed where only one translation translated the word ἐκκλησία, as 'church' where all the others translated it as congregation or assembly. You seem gung-ho in insisting that it ought to be translated 'church' against the better judgment of scholarship, (NASB; ESV; NKJV, NIV, AMP etc. etc.). The only one you hold to is the one that fits your narrative of the 'Church' existing in the OT even in the face of the fact that Jesus said 'He WILL build His Church'.

ἐκκλησία- ας, ἡ. (1) in a general sense, as a gathering of citizens assembly, meeting (AC 19.32); (2) as the assembled people of Israel congregation (HE 2.12); (3) as the assembled Christian community church, congregation, meeting (RO 16.5); (4) as the totality of Christians living in one place church (AC 8.1); (5) as the universal body of believers church (EP 1.22). (Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament).

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All of the variations are synonyms. Let's be honest about this and drop the agenda.