THE CHURCH

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Helen

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@Nancy @FHII

If they did it God's way, it would work.
Jesus sent them out two by two...any group should have at least two preaching....we had five.

Trouble is , these days , the "Pastor" wants it to be his livelihood and not work.
He wants to get paid, he wont want to share that with three others.
Paul was a tent maker..he wasn't afraid to work and preach.

My husband was one of the five, he had a full time job, his own business, yet we had 4 meetings a week! Today the pastor struggles with ONE!!
God equips and anoints those HE called.
For many it was never a calling but a choice of 'a Job.'

Now ask me how I really feel about the modern "pastor" !! Hahaha!!
 
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Nancy

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Lol...no need to ask, you are clear as usual. Oh yes indeed, you are so right. It has become a "job" for most of the pastors out there. Although, I do know a couple who also work outside the Church.
It's a different world out there, NOT that we should be surprised.
 
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FHII

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I see what you are saying but I disagree that it takes a person speaking words to get another to place their faith in what the words say. The Bible contains the words of God. Hearing can mean hearing the word of God as a person reads the scriptures. Remember the gospel was not in print when Paul wrote his letters.

If you think about it the scriptures teach that only those that have faith in God will hear (or read the words in the scriptures). In my opinion it is the Holy Spirit that teaches what the scriptures are saying to A PERSON. Without His teaching the words can be made to say what the religious want them to say.

I agree that there are many that think they know what a scripture means. But where does a person put their trust to understand them, in man or is it the Holy Spirit. I personally place my faith in the fact that I am a child of God, made one by the Holy Spirit, and as Jesus said, He (THE HOLY SPIRIT) will teach me what I am to know.

That is my faith in God. I have not been left in the hands of men. I was saved at 9 years old and I have never been alone since. I am 85 years old. For many years I heard sermon after sermon in churches teaching a blended gospel of works to show faith and all it does is set up the self-righteous over those that would come to God.

I wrote about a tragic event in my life when I was about 26 years old. A man looked me up at work and said he thought I was Christian and he needed to know about becoming one. He said his Christian friends told him he had to stop sinning to be a Christian. He asked my opinion and I told him that Jesus shed His blood on a cross to pay for his sins because He loved him. That he did not have to stop sinning in the flesh to be saved. It was between him and God. A week later he killed himself. I believe this was a teaching event that the Holy Spirit taught me. Otherwise why did he come to me?

The RCC claims their Popes are of apostolic succession. The Pope is the head of their church. The protestant churches followed that by setting up men to be head of their churches. The apple did not follow to far from the tree. Religious organization are set up so that the few dictates what the majority believes. It is brain washing those who they are above.

Sorry, I got carried away there. Anyone that can set in a church and listen to the junk being preached and does not go to the scriptures to see for themselves deserve to be led astray because they don't have the time to spend in the word of God.
I understand what you are saying and I sympathize with those who are fed up with the Churches they have attended and clearly do it wrong. I wrote to Nancy alittle about that.

But if you are going to simply read the Bible in your walk with God, how much of it are you going to believe and follow? Some of it or all of it? No, we are not under the law... Though it's still the truth. That's not where I am going.

So you know where I am going with this. If you are going to go by the Bible, what will you do when it talks about hearing (not reading:. God knows the difference and he said hearing)? What will you do with the verses that say to literally assemble? What will you do when God through Paul said he gave a ministry for the perfecting of the saints? Sure, the HS leads us into all truth, but did you notice he is left out in those verses in Eph 4?

So I submit to you that if all you are going to do is read the Bible and relying on the HS to teach you, then you are rebelling against the very words you are reading.

There is something else . We are talking about only a small portion of what happens in a proper Church. We are talking about knowledge and guidance. We haven't discussed praising him as a body, giving, being in one mind and one Accord or simply that God wants his family to be together.

So what goes through your mind when you read something like Hebrews 10:25 or Romans 13? Is the HS telling you to ignore those verses? What do you do when you read in 2 Timothy Paul lamenting about those who left or erred but then enouraging Timothy to keep teaching and training others to teach?

Again, I understand all who are dissatisfied with Churches. Is the problem the plan or it's execution?

Bottom line is that God's plan includes Churches. I don't see where he gave a plan B.
 
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Nancy

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I understand what you are saying and I sympathize with those who are fed up with the Churches they have attended and clearly do it wrong. I wrote to Nancy alittle about that.

But if you are going to simply read the Bible in your walk with God, how much of it are you going to believe and follow? Some of it or all of it? No, we are not under the law... Though it's still the truth. That's not where I am going.

So you know where I am going with this. If you are going to go by the Bible, what will you do when it talks about hearing (not reading:. God knows the difference and he said hearing)? What will you do with the verses that say to literally assemble? What will you do when God through Paul said he gave a ministry for the perfecting of the saints? Sure, the HS leads us into all truth, but did you notice he is left out in those verses in Eph 4?

So I submit to you that if all you are going to do is read the Bible and relying on the HS to teach you, then you are rebelling against the very words you are reading.

There is something else . We are talking about only a small portion of what happens in a proper Church. We are talking about knowledge and guidance. We haven't discussed praising him as a body, giving, being in one mind and one Accord or simply that God wants his family to be together.

So what goes through your mind when you read something like Hebrews 10:25 or Romans 13? Is the HS telling you to ignore those verses? What do you do when you read in 2 Timothy Paul lamenting about those who left or erred but then enouraging Timothy to keep teaching and training others to teach?

Again, I understand all who are dissatisfied with Churches. Is the problem the plan or it's execution?

Bottom line is that God's plan includes Churches. I don't see where he gave a plan B.

Indeed, "do not forsake..."!!! My spirit has a need to be amongst other Christians. It is not as much as I would like but God is opening doors. A Christian was never meant to be an "Island"...heard that somewhere once, lol. We NEED each other for so many reasons.
 

FHII

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Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Act 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

no there is not one. All men who have come to Christ have Christ.. is HE not enough.

Mat 20:25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
Mat 20:26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister.
So are those verses sufficient to make the ones I gave null and void?

Scripture does not counter or Trump other scripture as if it were a card game. Scripture coincides with other scripture. I love all those verses and will joyfully discuss them with you. But people on this board and in general have a bad habit of responding to a verse with another verse to counter it.
 

mjrhealth

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I understand what you are saying and I sympathize with those who are fed up with the Churches they have attended and clearly do it wrong. I wrote to Nancy alittle about that.

But if you are going to simply read the Bible in your walk with God, how much of it are you going to believe and follow? Some of it or all of it? No, we are not under the law... Though it's still the truth. That's not where I am going.

So you know where I am going with this. If you are going to go by the Bible, what will you do when it talks about hearing (not reading:. God knows the difference and he said hearing)? What will you do with the verses that say to literally assemble? What will you do when God through Paul said he gave a ministry for the perfecting of the saints? Sure, the HS leads us into all truth, but did you notice he is left out in those verses in Eph 4?

So I submit to you that if all you are going to do is read the Bible and relying on the HS to teach you, then you are rebelling against the very words you are reading.

There is something else . We are talking about only a small portion of what happens in a proper Church. We are talking about knowledge and guidance. We haven't discussed praising him as a body, giving, being in one mind and one Accord or simply that God wants his family to be together.

So what goes through your mind when you read something like Hebrews 10:25 or Romans 13? Is the HS telling you to ignore those verses? What do you do when you read in 2 Timothy Paul lamenting about those who left or erred but then enouraging Timothy to keep teaching and training others to teach?

Again, I understand all who are dissatisfied with Churches. Is the problem the plan or it's execution?

Bottom line is that God's plan includes Churches. I don't see where he gave a plan B.
Never did, it was always Gods plan for men to Follow after Christ and be led by His Spirit, it is this "mens Doctrines" that is destroying the good Works of God and making them void,

and when Christ comes, and all the people run out of the churches and cry out, " but what about us, look we are in church,

what can He but say,
Be gone from me i never knew you..
I gave you My Spirit, you rejected it form mens understanding and doctrines
I gave you my love you rejected it for your works
I knocked on your door, but you would not open it
I called you by name and you refused my council
I wept for you, but you would not weep with Me
I gave you a better way, but you chose your own, and now you must walk it alone, you have your churches let them save you.
 

Helen

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Again, I understand all who are dissatisfied with Churches. Is the problem the plan or it's execution?

Bottom line is that God's plan includes Churches. I don't see where he gave a plan B.

The problem is in the belief system..what I made BOLD is what bothers me... WE ARE THE CHURCH. We don't go TO Church.

We aren't "The Church" when we gather together.
We gather together BECAUSE we ARE the Church!!

All the while the Devil has us believing in "groups" of, and denominations , as being "church" then we stay divided and that pleases him.

Just like those who want "Unity of the Spirit".
It is not something we need to get or find...it says Eph 4:3
" Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
There IS one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling... One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all
."

We HAVE it..but we don't believe it.
We ARE The Church...but we don't believe it.
Divided, we don't have enough anointing to blow the fuzz off a dandelion.
"Jesus wept"
 
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FHII

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@Nancy @FHII

If they did it God's way, it would work.
Jesus sent them out two by two...any group should have at least two preaching....we had five.

Trouble is , these days , the "Pastor" wants it to be his livelihood and not work.
He wants to get paid, he wont want to share that with three others.
Paul was a tent maker..he wasn't afraid to work and preach.

My husband was one of the five, he had a full time job, his own business, yet we had 4 meetings a week! Today the pastor struggles with ONE!!
God equips and anoints those HE called.
For many it was never a calling but a choice of 'a Job.'

Now ask me how I really feel about the modern "pastor" !! Hahaha!!
There is a lot here that I agree with and disagree with. Yes, God's way will work. Jesus did send them out by twos, but that was a specific mission. He sent 70 out total. Paul often went with a companion like Barnabus... When Peter preached in the first 5 or so chapters he had others with him. That doesn't mean there is always equal leadership. And there were times they preached alone.

Paul being a tentmaker is overblown. ONE time it mentions him making tents. Folks forget all the times he used the offering for his expenses. No, he wasn't afraid to work and preach... And yes he did make tents. But to suggest that he covered his living expenses with tent making alone is short sided.

If a Pastor has helps of any sort, he should absolutely share. Especially if he needs or has an associate pastor. But there is nothing wrong with him earning a living from preaching. Not a lot will agree with that. But I am talking about a man who works 24 hours a day. Always on call for both God and the sheep.

It is a calling. Not a "job". Yet the calling is full time and God (being generous) makes provisions for the calling.
 
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FHII

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Never did, it was always Gods plan for men to Follow after Christ and be led by His Spirit, it is this "mens Doctrines" that is destroying the good Works of God and making them void,
Yes, I agree. We are to follow Christ and his spirit. I agree that the doctines of men should be avoided. I don't agree that they are being destroyed. Challenged yes, destroyed, no. I read the end.... God wins!

But the question is what is God's way? How do we follow Jesus and how are we led by the spirit? Would you be willing to take on just two scriptural references? That is discuss them with out trying to counter them with other scripture?

If so... Here they are:

1 Corinthians 11:1 KJV
Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Ephesians 4:11-13 KJV
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; [12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: [13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
 

FHII

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The problem is in the belief system..what I made BOLD is what bothers me... WE ARE THE CHURCH. We don't go TO Church.

We aren't "The Church" when we gather together.
We gather together BECAUSE we ARE the Church!!

All the while the Devil has us believing in "groups" of, and denominations , as being "church" then we stay divided and that pleases him.

Just like those who want "Unity of the Spirit".
It is not something we need to get or find...it says Eph 4:3
" Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
There IS one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling... One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all
."

We HAVE it..but we don't believe it.
We ARE The Church...but we don't believe it.
Divided, we don't have enough anointing to blow the fuzz off a dandelion.
"Jesus wept"
Yes, we are the Church. But believers assemble and when they do, it's also having Church.

I gave two scriptures to mjrhealth, and I will give two to you:

Hebrews 10:25 KJV
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is ; but exhorting one another : and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

1 Corinthians 11:18-20 KJV
For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. [19] For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. [20] When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

Yes ... Paul was rebuking in the latter verse. But not because they came together. It's because they didn't really come together. He rebuked the Church (the body of Christ) for what they did in the Church (which was a literal gathering place).
 

CoreIssue

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Absolutely. It's just a theory I have, but it's tough to keep a big congregation and preach ALL the truth. If a pastor sets out to do so, he's going to have to preach about hell. He's going to have preach about the dangers of splits and cliques. Then he's going to have to rebuke someone. Even when he's sticking to feel-good sermons it's tough to please everyone.
The healthiest most Bible Centered groups For me were a small church in the County of about 34,000 people told in the town of 2,500 and in the military attending Navigator meeting. Maybe 10 to 15 people meeting and homes.

The worst the bigger churches.

Just like at the beginning when believers met together in homes.
 
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Anthony D'Arienzo

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But..the point is, do we REALLY believe that if all the building were destroyed and no Christians were allowed to meet together, large or even two together...that then The Church had been destroyed?!!!:eek:

The Church is not any building , be it house, school , brick or wood..neither is the Church a gathering of people....

THE CHURCH is the world wide , blood washed , saints of Almighty God...every colour and country....alive and WELL on planet earth.
Do you ever read the bible? It never says what you say. It never speaks of random saints just wandering around.
 

Helen

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Do you ever read the bible? It never says what you say. It never speaks of random saints just wandering around.

Excuse me!

Who on earth said anything about "random saints just wandering around"
 
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mjrhealth

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Jesus did not speak to your friend.

Joh_18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

I guess you are not of the truth...
 
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mjrhealth

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Yes, I agree. We are to follow Christ and his spirit. I agree that the doctines of men should be avoided. I don't agree that they are being destroyed. Challenged yes, destroyed, no. I read the end.... God wins!

But the question is what is God's way? How do we follow Jesus and how are we led by the spirit? Would you be willing to take on just two scriptural references? That is discuss them with out trying to counter them with other scripture?

If so... Here they are:

1 Corinthians 11:1 KJV
Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Ephesians 4:11-13 KJV
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; [12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: [13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
And that all ended when,

Luk_16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

because at Pentecost, when His spirit was poured out, it was nor the time for men to be Led by His Spirit.

1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

and the Israelites where led by a cloud by day and column of fire by night.. is it you need to see to believe..
 

Helen

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Jesus did not speak to your friend.

Golly you are a miserable negative thing...who spat in your cereal.:(

Of course the Lord speaks to us..( well obviously not to you!!)
His Name is The Word of God.. 1 John 1:14 "And The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.."
 

FHII

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I am discussing/debating with some folks I agree with on many things. I like these folks. I want to back up and state my position on this before it gets lost.

In this day there are countless Churches and denominations. They each have their own slant on the Bible. I am against denominations. Not because they are a denomination, but because I have yet to find one who sticks strictly with the Bible. It's not because they have their own traditions. I don't mind a tradition as long as it doesn't contradict the Bible or add to it. Yet... That is the case most of the time.

The overwhelming violence to what God said has led many to swear off the whole notion of "church". Here, I mean the assembling of believers under leadership.

I fully acknowledge that the Church is God's collective body of believers in all places on Earth and in all generations. I have never heard Paul or Peter preach live, nor a real preacher preach live who may be preaching the truth in India, for example. But Peter, Paul that guy in India and myself are "his Church".

Getting past that, despite the fact that so much globally is done wrong with the concept of Church... It is still God's plan. I am upset not with the outcying against what is wrong, but the refusal to believe that some have it right. That's is not to say anything Church has everything right and complete. But it is the path they are on.

So if you despise an assembly of believers under leadership, I ask that you don't do so for that alone. Question the doctrine. It it's at fault, let it correct itself. If it doesn't, reject it. Question it's love and sincerity. If it's lacking, let it grow. If it doesn't, reject it.

Eventually, these types of conversations lead people to start talking about "a brick building". Ok... The brick building is not the Church. I agree with that. But it may just be where the Saints gather. Is there something wrong with respecting the gathering g place?

If God's children are there and God is there, and the Holy Spirit is at work there... It's at least temporarily Holy ground. And if it has a history of temporarily being holy ground... It's well... A historical site!

Before you poo poo that idea, let me ask you how many would or have visited Isael for a religious experience? I would like to. But if God really did visit a body of believers in a small or big building, is it really any different?

My point is that if you have visited or wanted to visit Israel because Jesus was there, you are a hypocrite if you believe the Holy Spirit visited other places.

No. The building is not the Church. But it is where the Church meets. I see nothing wrong with treating that place with respect.

One day God may proclaim it Icabod. But for the time being...

Let me talk about the flip side. If you don't believe we need Church as I am defending it, what are you doing? You are relying on the Holy Spirit to personally teach you.

I emphatically believe he can show you things. But it's going to be nuggets. Exciting stuff but not the full revelation. And it will come better under a teacher who teaches you how to learn. But I am moving away from my point.

Try the spirits. That's Bible. We don't have scripture that says try the Word. But if the HS is teaching you directly, you are in elite company and are given that to teach others.

He gave it to Noah, Samuel, Moses, Isaiah, Malachi, John, Jesus, Paul and Peter and told them to teach others. But he's going to give it to you for you alone?

Well, that has happened too. Judges 21:25. There was no king in Israel but every man did that which was right in his own eyes. Not good times.

So if the HS is dealing directly with you, history proves it's because he wants you in the ministry.

Bottom line: I understand that there is a lot wrong with Churches and their doctrines and their govt. That doesn't change the fact that it is God's plan. God wants us to assemble on Earth and have leadership.
 
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Helen

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I am discussing/debating with some folks I agree with on many things. I like these folks. I want to back up and state my position on this before it gets lost.

In this day there are countless Churches and denominations. They each have their own slant on the Bible. I am against denominations. Not because they are a denomination, but because I have yet to find one who sticks strictly with the Bible. It's not because they have their own traditions. I don't mind a tradition as long as it doesn't contradict the Bible or add to it. Yet... That is the case most of the time.

The overwhelming violence to what God said has led many to swear off the whole notion of "church". Here, I mean the assembling of believers under leadership.

I fully acknowledge that the Church is God's collective body of believers in all places on Earth and in all generations. I have never heard Paul or Peter preach live, nor a real preacher preach live who may be preaching the truth in India, for example. But Peter, Paul that guy in India and myself are "his Church".

Getting past that, despite the fact that so much globally is done wrong with the concept of Church... It is still God's plan. I am upset not with the outcying against what is wrong, but the refusal to believe that some have it right. That's is not to say anything Church has everything right and complete. But it is the path they are on.

So if you despise an assembly of believers under leadership, I ask that you don't do so for that alone. Question the doctrine. It it's at fault, let it correct itself. If it doesn't, reject it. Question it's love and sincerity. If it's lacking, let it grow. If it doesn't, reject it.

Eventually, these types of conversations lead people to start talking about "a brick building". Ok... The brick building is not the Church. I agree with that. But it may just be where the Saints gather. Is there something wrong with respecting the gathering g place?

If God's children are there and God is there, and the Holy Spirit is at work there... It's at least temporarily Holy ground. And if it has a history of temporarily being holy ground... It's well... A historical site!

Before you poo poo that idea, let me ask you how many would or have visited Isael for a religious experience? I would like to. But if God really did visit a body of believers in a small or big building, is it really any different?

My point is that if you have visited or wanted to visit Israel because Jesus was there, you are a hypocrite if you believe the Holy Spirit visited other places.

No. The building is not the Church. But it is where the Church meets. I see nothing wrong with treating that place with respect.

One day God may proclaim it Icabod. But for the time being...

Let me talk about the flip side. If you don't believe we need Church as I am defending it, what are you doing? You are relying on the Holy Spirit to personally teach you.

I emphatically believe he can show you things. But it's going to be nuggets. Exciting stuff but not the full revelation. And it will come better under a teacher who teaches you how to learn. But I am moving away from my point.

Try the spirits. That's Bible. We don't have scripture that says try the Word. But if the HS is teaching you directly, you are in elite company and are given that to teach others.

He gave it to Noah, Samuel, Moses, Isaiah, Malachi, John, Jesus, Paul and Peter and told them to teach others. But he's going to give it to you for you alone?

Well, that has happened too. Judges 21:25. There was no king in Israel but every man did that which was right in his own eyes. Not good times.

So if the HS is dealing directly with you, history proves it's because he wants you in the ministry.

Bottom line: I understand that there is a lot wrong with Churches and their doctrines and their govt. That doesn't change the fact that it is God's plan. God wants us to assemble on Earth and have leadership.

Thank you. Nice to see what you think , in detail.
Such a nice and well laid out post.

I can see we can agree on that ... :)

God bless Helen
 
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Enoch111

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May 27, 2018
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We NEED each other for so many reasons.
Especially when there are cup cakes and cookies sitting around.:D

Seriously, God planned to have at least one church or assembly in every city, as we see in Scripture. This would be a lamp stand (candlestick in the KJV) giving out the light of the Gospel to the surrounding *world* as well as a place for worship, fellowship, prayers, and the teaching of the Word, while each one exercised their spiritual gift(s). And this is also where Christians would gather to do what is shown in Acts chapter 2. And all the NT churches had elders (plural, no women) and deacons (plural, no women). The elders had spiritual oversight and the deacons managed the temporal affairs of the church.

The NT church pattern is clearly shown in Scripture, but it was ABANDONED almost immediately after the apostles passed on.
 
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