Calvinism is a Cult

Mjh29 said:

Nope, because there is no such thing as free will.

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Lady Crosstalk said:

Then why did Jesus tell the woman caught in adultery to, "Go and sin no more"?

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Mjh29 said:

He told her not to commit this sin anymore. You think she lived the rest of her life sinless?

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Is there a point to your question?

@Lady Crosstalk's point was that Jesus told the woman caught in adultery to "Go and sin no more," rather than just willing her to do so (as though it were the choice of God alone that matters). Jesus gave her a command that she had the option of obeying or disobeying.

Whether she lived the rest of her life sinless or not is beside the point.

Vince said:

This is how I thought when I was a Christian although it does seem like works are required then. I don't have much problem with it as the Bible goes.

Why are you more likely to do good works if you have faith in God <fify>? Why is God <fify> needed to help others?

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I think that the primary reason is that our motivation for doing what is right will be off-base apart from a relationship with God. Jesus, in John 15, also said, Apart from me ye can do nothing.

And therefore, if we attempt to do good works apart from the help of the Lord, we will find ourselves coming up miserably short.

justbyfaith said:

Is there a point to your question?

@Lady Crosstalk's point was that Jesus told the woman caught in adultery to "Go and sin no more," rather than just willing her to do so (as though it were the choice of God alone that matters). Jesus gave her a command that she had the option of obeying or disobeying.

Whether she lived the rest of her life sinless or not is beside the point.

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Jesus had changed her heart. Her choice is not what saved her. If she were to go and never sin again, would that be enough? She met with the face of the Savior, and her heart was opened by His presence.

Yes, He told her to do this, but that doesn't mean she has the ability. If I told you to go jump off a cliff and fly, could you do it just because I told you to? Nope. The problem is we see faith as a natural, rather than a supernatural occurrence. Why is it that, no matter how much you show the truth to an Atheist, they refuse to accept? Many, many Atheist I know are some of the smartest people I know, but they refuse to accept Christ and have faith; why? If it is a natural occurrence, then why can't all intelligent people make the obviously right choice?

The choices are literally:
1.) Go to heaven if you just profess you have faith
2.) Go to hell forever

It is a no-brainer! Why are all intelligent people not then saved?

And the woman at the well; if she were really in control of her will, she never would have done the things she did; She had to have known what she was doing was wrong, why would she ever do it anyways? And the same is especially true for believers; Why would we ever sin again if we are in control of our wills? If we have free will, and we know sin is wrong, then why do we still then sin even after having faith?

justbyfaith said:

Jesus, in John 15, also said, Apart from me ye can do nothing.

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Still trying to find the "except have faith, that is something you must do on our own" part....

Mjh29 said:

He told her not to commit this sin anymore. You think she lived the rest of her life sinless?

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He didn't actually say that. This is what He said: "... I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more." (John 8:11) This is from the New American Standard--which is considered to be the most accurate Koine Greek to English translation. Other translations say, "Leave your life of sin." If she was incapable of following His orders, why did He tell her that? It is my opinion (and that of others) that what Jesus was writing in the dirt was the Ten Commandments. It is through the grace of Our Lord that we can keep the Commandments. This was a Jewish woman, in a very Jewish setting (they were in the Temple courts). In Israel, to be "blameless" did not mean that they never sinned, but that they did not break the Commandments. There were undoubtedly such individuals in Israel at that time (even though there were many who couldn't even keep that standard). Jesus constantly set a "new" standard (see Leviticus 11:44) in front of the people--that of holiness. Not only does the grace of God forgive us for our sins, but it helps us to avoid sin through the power of His Holy Spirit. It is my hope that she lived the rest of her life in the grace of God, which would have enabled her to avoid breaking any of the Commandments.

justbyfaith said:

I think that the primary reason is that our motivation for doing what is right will be off-base apart from a relationship with God. Jesus, in John 15, also said, Apart from me ye can do nothing.

And therefore, if we attempt to do good works apart from the help of the Lord, we will find ourselves coming up miserably short.

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Well, I help others as best I can. I don't see a reason why god is necessary to do good. Many nonbelievers do good every day without Jesus. Seems to be in opposition to this verse.

Vince said:

Well, I help others as best I can. I don't see a reason why god is necessary to do good. Many nonbelievers do good every day without Jesus. Seems to be in opposition to this verse.

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Here is the problem; Men can never do anything that is completely good apart from God. Each action we make has 3 parts: Motive, Means, and Goal.

1.) Motive -- Why are we doing what we are doing?
[People apart from God are doing good things to feel like a good person, which is actually serving your own needs; the need to feel like a good person]
2.) Means -- How are you accomplishing this goal?
3.) Goal -- What do you hope to achieve doing this?
[Again, anyone outside of Christ and His blood is doing 'good' things to feel like a good person, which is self-service]

All 3 of the above must not be self serving in any way in order for any action to be truly good and acceptable in the sight of God. God sees our hearts, not just our surface actions. He sees our motive, means, and goals, and knows that we are doing these good things at least in part to feel like we are good people. When a person is in union with Christ, God views His righteousness, not ours, when He looks at our works, and that is what makes them acceptable.

Mjh29 said:

Here is the problem; Men can never do anything that is completely good apart from God. Each action we make has 3 parts: Motive, Means, and Goal.

1.) Motive -- Why are we doing what we are doing?
[People apart from God are doing good things to feel like a good person, which is actually serving your own needs; the need to feel like a good person]
2.) Means -- How are you accomplishing this goal?
3.) Goal -- What do you hope to achieve doing this?
[Again, anyone outside of Christ and His blood is doing 'good' things to feel like a good person, which is self-service]

All 3 of the above must not be self serving in any way in order for any action to be truly good and acceptable in the sight of God. God sees our hearts, not just our surface actions. He sees our motive, means, and goals, and knows that we are doing these good things at least in part to feel like we are good people. When a person is in union with Christ, God views His righteousness, not ours, when He looks at our works, and that is what makes them acceptable.

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This is not true. I do good because I have empathy towards others, because I was helped by others in the past, because it helps our society, because it makes me feel good, because I love others etc.

How is it any different when a homeless person is given new clothes for example whether it is motivated by a god belief or empathy or another reason? The person is helped. If a christian does good to please god then that is self serving as well. Part of my motivation may be self centered but not all and what does that matter, the person is helped. Is pleasing god first the primary goal of a christian or is helping someone the primary goal?

Vince said:

This is not true. I do good because I have empathy towards others, because I was helped by others in the past, because it helps our society, because it makes me feel good, because I love others etc.

How is it any different when a homeless person is given new clothes for example whether it is motivated by a god belief or empathy or another reason? The person is helped. If a christian does good to please god then that is self serving as well. Part of my motivation may be self centered but not all and what does that matter, the person is helped. Is pleasing god first the primary goal of a christian or is helping someone the primary goal?

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It can make a big difference to both the receiver and the giver. If the giver gives the credit ("glory") to God, who IS love and compassion, it will impact the receiver for the gospel. A mature believer does righteous acts out of his/her love for Christ. The primary goal of a Christian is to tell the world about the Savior. Before leaving this world, Jesus tasked us with that as a goal. The primary trait of a believer should be love for God and our fellow man--especially for our brothers and sisters in the faith. If that is not in evidence, then the righteous act is phaulon (the Greek word for "worthless") because the receiver will likely not be grateful to God--he/she may even denigrate the gift as coming from a "do-gooder chump". If that is the case, it brings him/her no closer to God. It is nothing but a temporary fix to his/her plight (if that) but has no impact for the Kingdom of God--what Jesus came to announce to the inhabitants of the earth. If the giver does it so he/she can congratulate himself/herself on "being a good person" (in spite of Jesus telling His disciples that "only God is truly good") then we are contradicting Christ with a lie told to us by the enemy of our souls and are definitely no closer to God and His Kingdom. The goal has become one of puffing up our own pride. It puts us in the category of the hateful Pharisees who wanted to see Jesus executed. (Scripture tells us: "Draw close to God and He will draw close to you. James 4:8).

Vince said:

This is not true. I do good because I have empathy towards others, because I was helped by others in the past, because it helps our society, because it makes me feel good, because I love others etc.

How is it any different when a homeless person is given new clothes for example whether it is motivated by a god belief or empathy or another reason? The person is helped. If a christian does good to please god then that is self serving as well. Part of my motivation may be self centered but not all and what does that matter, the person is helped. Is pleasing god first the primary goal of a christian or is helping someone the primary goal?

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Neither. The chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. This is the ultimate purpose of doing good; serving God.

You said "Who cares if some of my motivation is self serving?"
This is like putting a glass of water with a drop of poison and a glass full of poison in front of you. Would you take the one with only a drop, and say "Eh, it's not going to do anything; it's still water." Of course not. The water has become poison, because the drop of poison spoils the entire glass of water. It is the same with self-serving. A drop of self serving poisons the entire good deed, because it no longer is done for the right reason or right goal.

I do not try to please God; I know I cannot. However, I do good for His Glory, and can only ever do good by His power.

Mjh29 said:

If I told you to go jump off a cliff and fly, could you do it just because I told you to? Nope.

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But then, you are not Jesus.

See post #1585 (Calvinism is a Cult).

justbyfaith said:

But then, you are not Jesus.

See post #1585 (Calvinism is a Cult).

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So, the woman was then sinless? Jesus made it so she would never sin again?

Mjh29 said:

Still trying to find the "except have faith, that is something you must do on our own" part....

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I am certainly not denying that faith is a gift from God. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of the Lord, Romans 10:17.

But I draw the line at saying that I have access to grace apart from faith. Therefore I cannot have grace without faith being first present in my heart; because I have access by faith into this grace wherein I stand.

Therefore faith is the catalyst for regeneration; not the other way around.

Iow, God does not first regenerate me and then I have faith as a result.

God gives me faith and I am regenerated as the result of that faith.

This is the biblical model, Romans 5:2 is clear.

justbyfaith said:

I am certainly not denying that faith is a gift from God. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of the Lord, Romans 10:17.

But I draw the line at saying that I have access to grace apart from faith. Therefore I cannot have grace without faith being first present in my heart; because I have access by faith into this grace wherein I stand.

Therefore faith is the catalyst for regeneration; not the other way around.

Iow, God does not first regenerate me and then I have faith as a result.

God gives me faith and I am regenerated as the result of that faith.

This is the biblical model, Romans 5:2 is clear.

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Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit you must have first. Just like you must have an apple tree before you can pick an apple from it.

Mjh29 said:

So, the woman was then sinless? Jesus made it so she would never sin again?

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To know that we would have to follow the woman's life after that particular incident occurred.

You can be sure that the sin that was being identified by that incident, she very likely did not commit again.

In commanding her to sin no more, Jesus made it possible for the woman to sin no more; which does not preclude that she exercised her faith and will so that in her practical life she never sinned again.

justbyfaith said:

To know that we would have to follow the woman's life after that particular incident occurred.

You can be sure that the sin that was being identified by that incident, she very likely did not commit again.

In commanding her to sin no more, Jesus made it possible for the woman to sin no more; which does not preclude that she exercised her faith and will so that in her practical life she never sinned again.

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How could Jesus do this? Would commanding her to sin no more not over ride her free will?

justbyfaith said:

I am certainly not denying that faith is a gift from God. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of the Lord, Romans 10:17.

But I draw the line at saying that I have access to grace apart from faith. Therefore I cannot have grace without faith being first present in my heart; because I have access by faith into this grace wherein I stand.

Therefore faith is the catalyst for regeneration; not the other way around.

Iow, God does not first regenerate me and then I have faith as a result.

God gives me faith and I am regenerated as the result of that faith.

This is the biblical model, Romans 5:2 is clear.

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So YOU are the catalyst, not God. What you are saying is "Apart from me choosing first, God can do nothing in my life"

Completely the opposite of what the Scriptures say.

Vince said:

This is not true. I do good because I have empathy towards others, because I was helped by others in the past, because it helps our society, because it makes me feel good, because I love others etc.

How is it any different when a homeless person is given new clothes for example whether it is motivated by a god belief or empathy or another reason? The person is helped. If a christian does good to please god then that is self serving as well. Part of my motivation may be self centered but not all and what does that matter, the person is helped. Is pleasing god first the primary goal of a christian or is helping someone the primary goal?

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You should ask yourself the question, whether any of your good deeds have any eternal value.

Mjh29 said:

So YOU are the catalyst, not God. What you are saying is "Apart from me choosing first, God can do nothing in my life"

Completely the opposite of what the Scriptures say.

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I have access by faith into this grace wherein I stand. That is what the holy scriptures say.

Mjh29 said:

How could Jesus do this? Would commanding her to sin no more not over ride her free will?

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Of course not! He commanded her to do it; it is her option to obey or disobey.