When to look for the rapture of the church

Copperhead said:

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Then who are the 10 virgins of Matthew 25 and the Sheep and Goats, also of Matthew 25? Just a basic reading of the passage implies they are not the redeemed of the church (Body of Messiah)

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The five wise virgins certainly are... members of Christ's Church. Jesus does not close the door on them, but only on the five foolish virgins who didn't prepare with a spare vessel of the Oil (Holy Spirit).


With the parable of the sheep and goats of Matt.25, the sheep certainly are... members of Christ's Church:

Matt 25:33-34
33 And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, "Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
KJV

Naomi25 said:

I think this depends on whether or not Revelation is a book that is meant to be read in chronological order or not. If the events that happen in Rev 20 happen in time after Christ's physical return in Rev 19, then yes, there is a problem.

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I may have to address your post in multiple replies, since you made a long post (which long posts are OK by me).

I don't see a problem at all with reading the end of Rev.19 with it then flowing right into Rev.20. The beast and false prophet are destroyed, but Satan as the dragon is not yet destroyed. That shows the beast and false prophet are only 'roles' for the end, and not literally flesh men. It's easy to know that simply because no flesh man is even judged and sentenced to perish until the Rev.20 "thousand years" is over. Only Satan and his angels have already been judged and sentenced to perdition (I keep having to repeat this, I wonder why so few can remember it?).

However, I don't believe Revelation is supposed to be read in a chronological manner, for many reasons. Rev 20 is not something that happens 'after' Rev 19. There are many things that lead us to this conclusion, and to go through them all would take up too much time and space here, but I'll point out a few things briefly: Rev shows Christ's return happening several times (theophany: Rev 6:16-17; Rev 11:15; Rev 19:11). We also see several 'world ending events' (sky rolling up like a scroll, great comet/stars falling to earth, mountains and Islands fleeing away) and yet in the next chapters, there they all are again! Sky, mountains, etc.
And then we comes to these verses:

But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house. -Matthew 12:28–29

The seventy-two returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!” And he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you. -Luke 10:17–19

Jesus is telling his Disciples, and any who would listen, that the Kingdom had come. That Satan was indeed bound, and powerless to stop the spread of the gospel. And I think we all must agree that these two verses fall before Christ's second coming.

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Since our Lord Jesus hadn't even yet died on the cross and raised from the dead when He spoke that to His disciples, that should have given you a huge clue of something. It shows that His Kingdom had then come only spiritually for His chosen servants that He chose to first preach The Gospel, and them who would believe by their word. Still today, Christ's LITERAL Kingdom has yet to come upon this earth. Church buildings are not The Father's promise to David that Christ would sit upon his throne, an earthly throne in Jerusalem. So understanding about Christ inheriting David's earthly throne when He returns settles men's doctrines on what Jesus meant by what kingdom has already come on earth (see Matthew 25:31).

Revelation is both chronological and non-chronological. There aren't timeline jumps after each verse in all Revelation chapters. But there are many timeline jumps to the past, future, and present, just as it is in the Old Testament Books of the prophets. Someone who studied the OT prophets will have a lot less problem in study of our Lord's Revelation. I kind of feel sorry for brethren reading Revelation that haven't first studied the OT prophets.

Naomi25 said:

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Actually, the condition that is usally sat down, is by Dispensationalists who seem to demand that 'ruling and reigning' must be a certain something that the bible doesn't lay claim to. Its iteresting, actually, because it's the same mistake the Jews made at Christ's first coming. The all missed him as the Messiah, because they had the mistaken notion that the Messiah had to be this earthly, political ruler. And yet Jesus confounded them, by saying that his Kingdom was not of this world. By teaching that one overcame by submitting and serving.

So...perhaps you might say that 1 Cor 15 says he must rule over all his enemies first, which has not happened...but...let's look at it, and other scripture:

that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, -Ephesians 1:20–22

who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him. -1 Peter 3:22

But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” -1 Corinthians 15:23–27

When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.” -1 Corinthians 15:54

What shall we make of these scripture? Well...it's actually pretty simple. Jesus has been exalted now. He rules and reigns now. Everything has been subjected to him now.
When will he exercise final and absolute control and 'ending' of these things? At his return. And it is at his return that death is defeated and he delivers the Kingdom to the Father. You see...there is nothing vague about 1 Cor 15. It doesn't give us a condition of death before it is destroyed. It outright tells us that "the end" will come AT Christ's return and that this is the moment he delivers the Kingdom. This means that the conditions will be met...it tells us what they are: all rule and authority defeated, last enemy defeated. And it all ties back to "at his coming", which is also then tied to the moment we receive our new 'imperishable' bodies. You cannot unravel it.

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I'm not a Dispensationalist, so I don't believe in a pre-trib rapture, nor that Christ takes His Church to Heaven to live for a thousand years while fleshy Israel re-lives a fleshy kingdom on earth. But there is enough Scripture to show there will be a literal, physical sanctuary setup in Jerusalem on earth when Jesus returns. And like I said before, David's throne which our Lord Jesus is to inherit when He returns, has always been an earthly throne. This is why we have many passages about our Lord Jesus presently sitting on the right hand of The Father's throne.



And I have to disagree with you about what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15...

Paul was very specific there that our flesh bodies of corruption must put on incorruption, AND our mortal (soul) must put on immortality in order to have eternal life in Christ Jesus. That will happen for Christ's elect He mentioned as the "resurrection of life", but not for those of the "resurrection of damnation" that are also raised on that day of His coming.

Ps 110:1-2
110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, "Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool."
2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
KJV


If Christ's Kingdom has already come, i.e., that all His enemies have already been made His footstool, then when is this going to happen?

Rev 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
KJV

Since when has Christ's elect ever had the "synagogue of Satan" come and worship Jesus at their feet???

That "synagogue of Satan" represents the chiefs of Satan's servants here on earth, even for today. Where is it they are bowing to worship Christ at His elect's feet??

Zechariah 14 shows leftovers of the nations that came up against Jerusalem being required to come to Jerusalem and worship The King, The LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles, from year to year.

With those Scripture proofs of Christ's literal future reign over His enemies here on earth, it's awful difficult to proclaim the wicked are judged and destroyed on the day of His return.

Naomi25 said:

I'm not really sure of your point here. Are you saying that Paul is covering both redeemed and unredeemed here? That, in essence, even unsaved people will have a new, everlasting body as well?
Because...sure, I'm not arguing the fact that unsaved people will 'last forever' in their judgement. But, equally, I don't think this point helps your argument along.
Either way (or both) this passage teaches that AT Christ's return, death, as it stands now, will be no more. That still means that death, the final enemy, will be defeated, AT Christ's return.

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Yes, the unsaved will have resurrection bodies as well; but still with mortal souls subject to the "second death". How can you even read Rev.20 and bypass the concept of the "first resurrection" and the "second death" as given there?

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

What would a "resurrection of damnation" entail?

Well, we know what a 'resurrection' means. It means a raising of the dead. Apostle Paul in 1 Cor.15 explained in detail the resurrection body type is a "spiritual body", the "image of the heavenly", a body of incorruption. What you apparently don't understand is Ecclesiastes 12:5-7:

Eccl 12:5-7
5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:

6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
KJV

At flesh death (the first death), our flesh body is separated from our spirit. Our flesh material body goes back to the earthly elements where it came from. But our spirit, which our Lord Jesus showed in Matt.10:28 includes our 'soul', goes back to God Who gave it.

If you believe this "spirit" here in verse 7 is only about an animate spirit that even plants have, then it would mean when you die your soul, your personality, your id, all of it, is gone forever! That is exactly how the "synagogue of Satan" wants you to think of it, but their's is not the meaning. There literally is a "silver cord" linking our spirit-soul with our flesh body, even now as we breath. We are made up of 3 parts, a flesh body, a spirit image, and a soul. When our flesh dies, our spirit body image housing our soul is revealed in the Heavenly dimension. Our spiritual body is only an outward body image without flesh. It looks like flesh, feels like it, but is of that other dimension. It is the type body of the angels, and has the image of a young man (see Gen.19 about the two angels sent to Lot). The unsaved will have that body also. But their soul will still... be liable to die, like Paul showed with the Greek word for "this mortal" in 1 Cor.15:54.

Since God's Word declares there will... be a "resurrection of damnation", that means they will be raised from the dead also. Those who remain on earth and are alive must go through the 'change' at the twinkling of an eye that Paul mentioned. Paul even said we shall not all sleep, but we ALL shall be changed (1 Cor.15:51). That includes the unsaved alive on earth too. I mean you pointed to the sheep being separated from the goats at Christ's second coming? There it is, the "resurrection of damnation" that also happens when Jesus returns (John 5:28-29).

Naomi25 said:

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Indeed it is, but not in the manner you believe. The NT coming of Christ changed how we read OT prophecies significantly. Just as we see Paul referring to the Church as the 'temple of God', we also see the feasts of Israel being fulfilled in Christ. Indeed, we know that Christ IS the new, true Israel. John 11:52 (and 4:35, 10:16; Rev 5:9, 7:9) makes it clear that Jesus is gathering his people. However, his gathering does not involve geographical relocation to Israel or Jerusalem. Jesus said that his being lifted up by his death on the cross is what "will draw all men to myself" (John 12:32). So, basically, Jesus, not the 'promised land', is now the focus of this long-awaited 'ingathering'. Thus, the true fulfillment of Zech 14:16 is not people flocking to a particular earthly city to worship Christ. That rather misses the point of the torn curtain.

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No, the Scriptures as written did not change, how God touches our understanding by The Holy Spirit at the right time so we can fully... understand is what the difference is. How many times have you struggled with a Scripture, or where many in the Church have struggled with it, until the times came for it to be understood? Remember the OT prophets that Peter spoke of wanting to know about the mystery of Christ. We know that now since our Lord Jesus died on the cross and our Heavenly Father raised Him, and we believed their Testimony. But even His disciples while He was yet with them didn't know that yet. It wasn't time then for it be revealed. Today I believe our Lord's Book of Revelation is pretty much wide open to His servants who study.

And I assure you, Apostle Paul did not change the meaning of "the temple of God" in 2 Thess.2 to mean a spiritual temple. As I have said many times before, the spiritual temple idea by Paul can NEVER, EVER be about a false one corrupting it. Per Paul in Ephesians 2, the spiritual temple is made of a foundation of Christ's Apostles and prophets, with our Lord Jesus as its Chief Cornerstone. Now IF... you think that foundation can be corrupted by any... man, then it would mean you have believed on a false foundation with Jesus not even able to defeat His Own enemies! His Church foundation would be built on a false foundation! An Orthodox Jew who hates Christ Jesus would love... us to believe that baloney, and they will have their reward for teaching such falseness against Christ's Church! Even any believer fallen away trying... to corrupt the true spiritual temple, is simply 'cut off' from it! They do it to themselves by their own unrighteousness. What was it that Jesus will say to those who work iniquity? He will tell them to get away from Him, that He never knew them (Matt.7:22-23).

Your terribly wrong with going against Bible prophecy about the gathering of His Church to go to Jerusalem and reign at His return. By refusing that you have just omitted much of future Bible prophecy.

I'm....not entirely sure what you're trying to argue here. It sounds like a cirular sort of argument...perhaps you could clarify?

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It's like I had said, you cannot pull a single Bible verse out of its context and apply a totally different meaning to it. It's done all the time in modern socialist Churches and beth-avens. Some preachers will pull one verse from The Bible and preach an hour on it never actually getting around to its meaning within... the flow of where's it's written. Many preachers out there preaching a business, not The Word of God. And your idea that since now we have The New Testament, then it means what was written in The Old Testament Books is now changed (with your real intent being that there's no longer need to study it), then there will be a lot of things to occur in our near future you will definitely be wondering what's going on.

You might have pointed out your thoughts on it, but I showed bible verses showing that Christ IS, in fact, doing those things now. So...not impossible, nor foolish.
But, you know, feel free to try and find some bible verses that show otherwise...

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I don't have time to show you what I had already shown, including the Scripture. Go through my posts and you will see. If you think Christ's LITERAL reign over ALL nations is happening now already, then I can't help you, because you would have to omit a good amount of Bible Scripture, especially the Scriptures I've covered to you already. And since you think His future thousand years reign of Rev.20 is a pet theory, then I wonder what His reaction towards you is going to be when He returns.

CoreIssue said:

Show me a single mention of church or Christian from the 7th church to the second coming in Revelation. You cannot.

Deal with Revelation 3:10.

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One must not over emphasize a word like "church" and ignore all the other adjectives in the bible that describes us.

Take the word saints. Here are some interesting facts. This word is used in the much larger section of the bible called the OT only 35 times, while in the much shorter NT it is used prior to Revelations 47 times, 46 of those referring to individual christian believers and/or the church. To me this is enough evidence to conclude that the term used in Revelations 13 times also refers to the church seeing as how it is used more to describe it then it was to describe the Jews. The majority of the references in Revelations are undeniably church related.

Then we have some phrases that are used in the NT to describe what can only be the church like, the testimony. Rev. 6:9, 12:11, 17, 15:5 and 19:10. Rev. 19:10 says: ...”I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

It is also interesting to note that the Gospel of John, who is supposed by many biblical historians to be the same as the author of Revelations, refers to the testimony of believers 4 times. This is the only one of the gospels to use it in this manner. Is this a coincidence? I think not. John 3:32-33, 5:34 and 21:24.

Let’s compare some other verses”

Rev.13:10 – “If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.”

James 5:10-11: “Brothers, as an example of patience in the face of suffering, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. As you know, we consider blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job's perseverance and have seen what the Lord finally brought about. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy.”


Rev. 18:4 – “Then I heard another voice from heaven say: "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues;”

2 Cor. 6:16-17 – “What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people." "Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you.”

The bible is written to the church, specifically the seven mentioned but they hold a message for us all and at the end, Jesus says, the whole book was given to the churches which leads me to conclude that much of what is between the beginning and the end are for us, the church, as well.

CoreIssue said:

Deal with Revelation 3:10

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Rev. 3:10, "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth." (NIV).

Sincere christians who hold to the pre-tribulation rapture theory often cite this verse, among others, as "proof" that their eschatology is correct. They focus on the second part, ..."I will also keep you from ( ek – meaning, in the midst of, not away from) the hour of trial...", meaning they expect to raptured, but ignore the first part of this verse, "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently...". This verse has a cause and effect relationship. Since you have done this, I will do that. How does one endure patiently and what does it involve? Here are a couple of other references that will give us a clue to what Jesus is telling us. Col. 1:11, "...so that you may have great endurance and patience...", James 1: 3, "... the trying of your faith worketh patience" (KJV) and James 5:10, "Brothers, as an example of patience in the face of suffering..."

The word patience in these verses conveys the idea of "endurance in the midst of adversity." This idea can also be found in the prophetic scriptures of Luke 21:16-19, 2 Thess. 1:4, Rev. 13:10 and Rev. 14:12. One should not assume that because some christians in other parts of the world are being martyred and others are going through various trials of sickness, loss of loved ones, minor persecutions, etc. that these qualify what this verse is talking about. They don't! We have had these problems since the day of Christ's Ascension and will continue to have them. This verse is talking about events that will affect all christians around upon the earth, as the "hour of trial" will affect the whole earth.

The word temptation as used in the KJV of this verse, means a time of testing separate from the Day of the Lord's Wrath. The description of G3986 is “A putting to proof by experiencing evil” Here is description #3 of the word “proof” from Webster’s – “The act of testing the truth or validity of something by experiment or trial.” This is what Peter was speaking of in 1 Peter 4:17-18. His wrath is for those who failed the test! The test is the Great Tribulation, that short time in the midst of Daniel's 70th week that consists of Satan's wrath against and persecution of the church. Those who "keep the word of His patience" (KJV) are the still present church who will overcome (overcoming, the topic of every letter to the seven churches) the difficulties during the early parts of the 70th week.

Trekson said:

One must not over emphasize a word like "church" and ignore all the other adjectives in the bible that describes us.

Take the word saints. Here are some interesting facts. This word is used in the much larger section of the bible called the OT only 35 times, while in the much shorter NT it is used prior to Revelations 47 times, 46 of those referring to individual christian believers and/or the church. To me this is enough evidence to conclude that the term used in Revelations 13 times also refers to the church seeing as how it is used more to describe it then it was to describe the Jews. The majority of the references in Revelations are undeniably church related.

Then we have some phrases that are used in the NT to describe what can only be the church like, the testimony. Rev. 6:9, 12:11, 17, 15:5 and 19:10. Rev. 19:10 says: ...”I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

It is also interesting to note that the Gospel of John, who is supposed by many biblical historians to be the same as the author of Revelations, refers to the testimony of believers 4 times. This is the only one of the gospels to use it in this manner. Is this a coincidence? I think not. John 3:32-33, 5:34 and 21:24.

Let’s compare some other verses”

Rev.13:10 – “If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.”

James 5:10-11: “Brothers, as an example of patience in the face of suffering, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. As you know, we consider blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job's perseverance and have seen what the Lord finally brought about. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy.”


Rev. 18:4 – “Then I heard another voice from heaven say: "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues;”

2 Cor. 6:16-17 – “What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people." "Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you.”

The bible is written to the church, specifically the seven mentioned but they hold a message for us all and at the end, Jesus says, the whole book was given to the churches which leads me to conclude that much of what is between the beginning and the end are for us, the church, as well.

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The Old Testament was written to Israel.

Does the church benefit from it? Most assuredly, but it is still written to Israel.

Just as the Gospels were written to Israel.

Trekson said:

Rev. 3:10, "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth." (NIV).

Sincere christians who hold to the pre-tribulation rapture theory often cite this verse, among others, as "proof" that their eschatology is correct. They focus on the second part, ..."I will also keep you from ( ek – meaning, in the midst of, not away from) the hour of trial...", meaning they expect to raptured, but ignore the first part of this verse, "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently...". This verse has a cause and effect relationship. Since you have done this, I will do that. How does one endure patiently and what does it involve? Here are a couple of other references that will give us a clue to what Jesus is telling us. Col. 1:11, "...so that you may have great endurance and patience...", James 1: 3, "... the trying of your faith worketh patience" (KJV) and James 5:10, "Brothers, as an example of patience in the face of suffering..."

The word patience in these verses conveys the idea of "endurance in the midst of adversity." This idea can also be found in the prophetic scriptures of Luke 21:16-19, 2 Thess. 1:4, Rev. 13:10 and Rev. 14:12. One should not assume that because some christians in other parts of the world are being martyred and others are going through various trials of sickness, loss of loved ones, minor persecutions, etc. that these qualify what this verse is talking about. They don't! We have had these problems since the day of Christ's Ascension and will continue to have them. This verse is talking about events that will affect all christians around upon the earth, as the "hour of trial" will affect the whole earth.

The word temptation as used in the KJV of this verse, means a time of testing separate from the Day of the Lord's Wrath. The description of G3986 is “A putting to proof by experiencing evil” Here is description #3 of the word “proof” from Webster’s – “The act of testing the truth or validity of something by experiment or trial.” This is what Peter was speaking of in 1 Peter 4:17-18. His wrath is for those who failed the test! The test is the Great Tribulation, that short time in the midst of Daniel's 70th week that consists of Satan's wrath against and persecution of the church. Those who "keep the word of His patience" (KJV) are the still present church who will overcome (overcoming, the topic of every letter to the seven churches) the difficulties during the early parts of the 70th week.

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Terreo ek is a phrase, not two single words. It means protected by removal.

Ek does not mean the midst of. It means from, out of. Just as the first is translated.

During patiently is past tense. They already did it.

No, we have not seen these throughout the history of mankind. It says it will be a time never seen before.

How can you be kept from something happening to the whole world while being in the world?

I repeat, then the seventh church to the second coming there is no mention of church in any manner. Any manner.

So you believe in a mid trib rapture.

CoreIssue said:

The Old Testament was written to Israel.

Does the church benefit from it? Most assuredly, but it is still written to Israel.

Just as the Gospels were written to Israel.

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Imo, Corel, that's not correct, the gospels were written for both, they are a record of the reality of what Christ did and said. By the time they were authored (60ad give or take five years or so) the gentile church far outnumbered the amount of Israelites coming to the gospel. Many think John was written post 70ad because of his exclusion of the Olivet Discourse. Because Jesus lived, taught and died under the law it is only natural that the narratives deal with Israel because that is where Jesus was, but that doesn't mean the accounts given in the gospels were only for a Jewish audience. There are many passages in all the gospels that can only have a church-centered message.

CoreIssue said:

How can you be kept from something happening to the whole world while being in the world?

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If you look at "keep" G5083, nothing in the definition means to remove from but to guard and protect against. But the only thing God is protecting is our souls, not our bodies. As Jesus taught, "we are to be considered as lambs to the slaughter" and the bible also says to "fear not him which can destroy the body but fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in hell." No, I'm pre-wrath which, imo, is sometime between pre-70th week and mid-70th week.

Trekson said:

Imo, Corel, that's not correct, the gospels were written for both, they are a record of the reality of what Christ di and said. By the time they were authored (60ad give or take five years or so) the gentile church far outnumbered the amount of Israelites coming to the gospel. Many think John was written post 70ad because of his exclusion of the Olivet Discourse. Because Jesus lived, taught and died under the law it is only natural that the narratives deal with Israel because that is where Jesus was, but that doesn't mean the accounts given in the gospels were only for a Jewish audience. There are many passages in all the gospels that can only have a church-centered message.

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Christ started laying the foundation for the church in the Gospels. But he did not witness or preach to the Gentiles.

All the books in the New Testament were written before 70 A.D.

But that does not change the fact that Mosaic law and times of Israel ended at the cross.

CoreIssue said:

All the books in the New Testament were written before 70 A.D.

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Most scholars disagree giving these dates for five of the books in the NT:

• John: AD 80-90
• 1 John: AD 90-95
• 2 John: AD 90-95
• 3 John: AD 90-95
• Revelation: AD 94-96
• Those that give an earlier date do so to give credence to the "symbolism" of Rev. or preterists or historicists.

Trekson said:

Most scholars disagree giving these dates for five of the books in the NT:

• John: AD 80-90
• 1 John: AD 90-95
• 2 John: AD 90-95
• 3 John: AD 90-95
• Revelation: AD 94-96
• Those that give an earlier date do so to give credence to the "symbolism" of Rev. or preterists or historicists.

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There is a lot of disagreement on the dating. But those late dates do not make any sense.

Think about the seven churches. They were Jewish Christians. Now think about the Romans at 70AD and after.

They had slaughtered or made slaves of Israel. Do you think they would not have taken down those churches too?

All the other books of the New Testament were written 30 and 40 years earlier. John was around an active same time the other apostles were. So why the wait to write?

CoreIssue said:

There is a lot of disagreement on the dating. But those late dates do not make any sense.

Think about the seven churches. They were Jewish Christians. Now think about the Romans at 70AD and after.

They had slaughtered or made slaves of Israel. Do you think they would not have taken down those churches too?

All the other books of the New Testament were written 30 and 40 years earlier. John was around an active same time the other apostles were. So why the wait to write?

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John was the youngest disciple and the last surviving one. I can only hazard a guess but I would say that God simply didn't inspire him to write until the latter time of his life. As far as the seven churches being "Jewish" christians, I would say, No way! They were Gentile churches. By the time the events of 70ad occurred most of the gentile christians had heeded the prophecies and had left Jerusalem, leaving only the Jews to undergo the judgment of God.

Trekson said:

John was the youngest disciple and the last surviving one. I can only hazard a guess but I would say that God simply didn't inspire him to write until the latter time of his life. As far as the seven churches being "Jewish" christians, I would say, No way! They were Gentile churches. By the time the events of 70ad occurred most of the gentile christians had heeded the prophecies and had left Jerusalem, leaving only the Jews to undergo the judgment of God.

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According to what I've read they were Jewish. Not that it really matters.

All are doing is guesswork. We don't know.

Trekson said:

John was the youngest disciple and the last surviving one. I can only hazard a guess but I would say that God simply didn't inspire him to write until the latter time of his life. As far as the seven churches being "Jewish" christians, I would say, No way! They were Gentile churches. By the time the events of 70ad occurred most of the gentile christians had heeded the prophecies and had left Jerusalem, leaving only the Jews to undergo the judgment of God.

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What happened was that Israel came of age when Jesus Came to be it's King.
All people regardless who do not look to Jesus Christ as the King of Israel are under the judgment of God not to mention always will be.
There is nether Jew nor Gentile in Christianity as both are as one then.
So you have Christians and Anti-Christ in the world nowadays only, end of story.

bbyrd009 said:

well cmon Naomi, we could go read the passage again if you like.
Pretty sure I can defend "here have a skin then" better than what we are all taught, "God can't even be in the presence of sin"

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Hmmm. Not sure you're representing that quite correctly. Like God hisses and recoils like a vampire does to light. It's more like...sure, he can BE IN the presence of sin, he's God, he can do all...but woe to the sinful one in HIS presence. So...in that scenario, God would be the sun and the sinful one would be the vampire being blown to ashes in the presence of a holy and just God.
That would be a more correct summation of how scripture presents it....if perhaps a little 'hollywood-esque'...but you get my point.

"ByGrace" said:

Sounds good to me.
I believe Jesus used it too..."If your right eye offend thee..." "If thy hand offend...cut it off.."
Amazing how the literalists don't actually take things as literal.

The bible is a spiritual book which is spiritually understood.

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Word!
Here's what I don't get. Literal can be good. Christ 'literally' came and died for us. We all believe he rose from the dead, literally. This is right and good and what scripture teaches. But we can't and shouldn't ignore that Christianity is a faith of spirituality. Our God is a Spirit, he dwells in a spiritual realm. Our true enemy is a spirit and we fight not against politicians, but powers...spiritual powers. Part of our faith requires us to confess we have the Spirit of God living within us! So....why, when some of try and point out how the bible touches so much on these very issues, do the others wig out? Do they deny these very important parts of our faith? That the bible speaks to them, about them?
I dunno...it just seems to me that too often with 'literalists' 2+2 just does not equal 4...and yet none of them can really explain why...but they all get really offended when I point it out or ask them to explain. Bizarre.

Naomi25 said:

I dunno...it just seems to me that too often with 'literalists' 2+2 just does not equal 4...

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Your problem is that you have been indoctrinated into a certain understanding of Bible prophecy (which is essentially to spiritualize everything prophetic), and no matter how much you are shown from Scripture, that mindset does not change.

To you a thousand years can mean whatever anyone wants. But to Christ a thousand years is literally a thousand years, since the Revelation is the Revelation of Jesus Christ (who repeats a thousand year six times to address the naysayers).

Which does not mean that those who take Scripture literally cannot distinguish between metaphors and plain facts. That is just a straw man argument.