There is more than one set of apocryphas.

tzcho2 · Mar 12, 2019

BreadOfLife said:
Your claim that Peter's office is NOT successive - when Scripture says it IS??

I stated that the RCC is not "THE" church mentioned in scripture-- it is far from it. It's like calling the Jehovah witnesses "the church", actually I think they claim that too probably. What I said re: Apostle Peter is that the Pope is not the successor of Apostle Peter.
I asked you to show where in scripture that it states that the RCC & its Pope is the successor-- but you cannot.
The Rcc's religous head is the Pope -vatican city, located in Rome-= RCC.
In a nutshell, faith is the unwavering belief & trust that Jesus is who He and the scripture says He is and that we who believe in Him have been saved from the penalty of our sins by Jesus finished work on the cross on Calvary & we are raised with Him according to the Holy Scriptures. It is by the grace of God, through Faith in Jesus alone, as written in scripture alone. We can of our own selves do nothing.

" 1Now FAITH is the assurance of what we hope for and the certainty of what we do not see. "

2 Corinthians 5:7
"For we walk by faith, not by sight."

BreadOfLife · Mar 12, 2019

Ezra said:
what DO YOU THINK JUSTIFICATION MEANS READ 1 JOHN 1:7 & 9 YOUR LEARNING is way off

1 John 1:7
But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

1 John 1:9
IF we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

BOTH of these verses are conditionqal on OUR COOPERATION with His grace.

BreadOfLife · Mar 12, 2019

tzcho2 said:
I stated that the RCC is not "THE" church mentioned in scripture-- it is far from it. It's like calling the Jehovah witnesses "the church", actually I think they claim that too probably. What I said re: Apostle Peter is that the Pope is not the successor of Apostle Peter.
I asked you to show where in scripture that it states that the RCC & its Pope is the successor-- but you cannot.
The Rcc's religous head is the Pope -vatican city, located in Rome-= RCC.
In a nutshell, faith is the unwavering belief & trust that Jesus is who He and the scripture says He is and that we who believe in Him have been saved from the penalty of our sins by Jesus finished work on the cross on Calvary & we are raised with Him according to the Holy Scriptures. It is by the grace of God, through Faith in Jesus alone, as written in scripture alone. We can of our own selves do nothing.

" 1Now FAITH is the assurance of what we hope for and the certainty of what we do not see. "

2 Corinthians 5:7
"For we walk by faith, not by sight."

And I agree with you 100%.

The "RCC" Church is NOT the Church established by Christ.
The Catholic Church is - and is the ONLY Church that can prove it by the testimonies of the Early Church.

NONE of your Protestant denominations can go back ANY further than the 16th century - not ONE. MOST of your splinter groups sprang in the last 100 years or so. As for the JW's - they only go back to their founder, Charles Taze Russell in 1879.

Acts 9:31 talks about how the Early Church grew throughout the region. The language used here describes the Catholic Church:
“Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee, and Samaria experienced peace and thus was strengthened. Living in the fear of the Lord and in the encouragement of the Holy Spirit, the church increased in numbers.”

According to Strong’s Greek Concordance – which is used by Protestants AND Catholics alike – the verse is translated as:
“The true Church throughout all Judea . . .”

Here is the phrase in Greek:
η μεν ουν εκκλησια καθ ολης της ιουδαιας

The Catholic Church gets its name from the GREEK for “according to the whole” and “universal” - εκκλησια καθ ολης, which is pronounced “katah-holos”.

Εκκλησια (ekklesia) - A gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly; CHURCH
καθ (katah) - Through out, according to
ολης (holos) - All, whole, completely
"Kata-holos" = CATHOLIC CHURCH.

St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch wrote the following on his way to be martyred in Rome at the turn of the 2nd century:
Ignatius of Antioch
Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 107]).

NOW - let's see YOUR historical and Scriptural proof, Einstein . . .

BreadOfLife · Mar 12, 2019

Ezra said:
justification is God's act of removing the guilt and penalty of sin while at the same time making a sinner righteous through Christ's atoning sacrifice. declared not guilty--just as if we had never sinned
John 15:2-4 King James Version (KJV)
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

1 Peter 1:18-20 King James Version (KJV)
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not "redeemed" with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
redeem

REDEE'M, v.t. L. redimo; red, re, and emo, to obtain or purchase.

1. To purchase back; to ransom; to liberate or rescue from captivity or bondage, or from any obligation or liability to suffer or to be forfeited, by paying an equivalent; as, to redeem prisoners or captured goods; to redeem a pledge.

2. To repurchase what has been sold; to regain possession of a thing alienated, by repaying the value of it to the possessor.

If a man shall sell a dwelling house in a walled city, then he may redeem it within a whole year after it is sold.

Romans 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 4:2
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

THERE IS NO PURGATORY THERE IS NO PROCESS OF BEING CLEANED MADE PURE AFTER DEATH ..it is not in the Bible .

you can try to make scriptures say something they are not... but you are adding to the word of God.

i suggest you study a Bible look up some words find out what they mean

Can I ask WHY you left out James 2:24??

James 2:24 states emphatically:
"You see that a man is justified by WORKS and NOT by faith alone."

So Is James LYING - or is Paul lying??
YOUR problem is that you, like ALL Protestants, cherry-pick Scripture to arrive at your aberrant doctrines. You actually pit one verse against another.

What if I told you that BOTH James and Paul were correct??
They are BOTH correct because they are BOTH telling PART of the story.

James makes CLEAR that belief alone will get you nowhere. In James 2:19, he declares that even the DEMONS believe and shudder - but they aren't saved. if all you do is "believe" - then you're NO better off than the demons.

James drives home the point that TRUE FAITH = Belief + Works (obedience). If you don't have either component - you don't have Faith. THAT'S why your Protestant Fathers like Luther and Calvin hated the Epistle of James. Luther called it "the Epistle of Straw" because it didn't conform to his theology.

Paul, on the other hand is talking about works of the LAW - which get you nowhere.

CoreIssue · Mar 12, 2019

BreadOfLife said:
Can I ask WHY you left out James 2:24??

James 2:24 states emphatically:
"You see that a man is justified by WORKS and NOT by faith alone."

So Is James LYING - or is Paul lying??
YOUR problem is that you, like ALL Protestants, cherry-pick Scripture to arrive at your aberrant doctrines. You actually pit one verse against another.

What if I told you that BOTH James and Paul were correct??
They are BOTH correct because they are BOTH telling PART of the story.

James makes CLEAR that belief alone will get you nowhere. In James 2:19, he declares that even the DEMONS believe and shudder - but they aren't saved. if all you do is "believe" - then you're NO better off than the demons.

James drives home the point that TRUE FAITH = Belief + Works (obedience). If you don't have either component - you don't have Faith. THAT'S why your Protestant Fathers like Luther and Calvin hated the Epistle of James. Luther called it "the Epistle of Straw" because it didn't conform to his theology.

Paul, on the other hand is talking about works of the LAW - which get you nowhere.

Works are the fruit of faith and salvation.

Paul did not limit salvation to not be by law. All works.

That includes the works prescribed by the Catholic Church.

Godly works earn rewards, not salvation.

James was driving home the point that is salvation does not result in works you are not saved.

Ezra · Mar 13, 2019

BreadOfLife said:
1 John 1:7
But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

1 John 1:9
IF we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

BOTH of these verses are conditionqal on OUR COOPERATION with His grace.

sorry but your wrong

Ezra · Mar 13, 2019

BreadOfLife said:
Can I ask WHY you left out James 2:24??

James 2:24 states emphatically:
"You see that a man is justified by WORKS and NOT by faith alone."

So Is James LYING - or is Paul lying??
YOUR problem is that you, like ALL Protestants, cherry-pick Scripture to arrive at your aberrant doctrines. You actually pit one verse against another.

What if I told you that BOTH James and Paul were correct??
They are BOTH correct because they are BOTH telling PART of the story.

James makes CLEAR that belief alone will get you nowhere. In James 2:19, he declares that even the DEMONS believe and shudder - but they aren't saved. if all you do is "believe" - then you're NO better off than the demons.

James drives home the point that TRUE FAITH = Belief + Works (obedience). If you don't have either component - you don't have Faith. THAT'S why your Protestant Fathers like Luther and Calvin hated the Epistle of James. Luther called it "the Epistle of Straw" because it didn't conform to his theology.

Paul, on the other hand is talking about works of the LAW - which get you nowhere.

of you cant understand what james is writing and what paul writes . your in sad shape . your blinded by pope theology

BreadOfLife · Mar 13, 2019

Ezra said:
of you cant understand what james is writing and what paul writes . your in sad shape . your blinded by pope theology

No - I think I gave a pretty clear explanation in post #264.
What's YOUR take on it?

BreadOfLife · Mar 13, 2019

Ezra said:
sorry but your wrong

Ummmm, no, I'm NOT.
The word "IF" indicates that the blessing that follows is conditional.

Didn't you ever take an English class?? My grade school teacher would move the conjunction ("if") to the second part of the sentence to show us that it didn't change the meaning of the sentence.
Observe:

1 John 1:7
But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
But we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin, IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light.

1 John 1:9
IF we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness, IF we confess our sins.

You see - in BOTH cases, the meaning of the sentence does NOT change when you move the conjunction to show that these blessings are CONDITIONAL on our cooperation.

Ezra · Mar 13, 2019

BreadOfLife said:
Didn't you ever take an English class?? My grade school teacher would move the conjunction ("if") to the second part of the sentence to show us that it didn't change the meaning of the sentence.

were not dealing with English..we are dealing with SCRIPTURES HELLO WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE .. there is NO such thing as PURGATORY period.. what part of the 2nd part is it YOU dont understand ? purgatory is a catholic fantasy island.. the moment your saved your sins are forgiven justified declared righteous . sanctified 3 steps 1. positional .placed in the Body of Christ. 2 progressive we grow in the grace and knowledge. we become a work in progress .3 ultimate we made it to heaven the job is finished ..... so thus there is NO holding place for the soul to be purified .so we can enter heaven ..the Blood purifies
Hebrews 9:22-24 King James Version (KJV)
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

1 Peter 1:21-23 King James Version (KJV)
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

22 Seeing ye have" purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit " unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

dont know what Bible you use nor do i care who or why didnt like the book of JAMES i realize your confused maybe disoriented get a real Bible do some searching you not find the word purgatory in the Bible any place

Ezra · Mar 13, 2019

BreadOfLife said:
I think I gave a pretty clear explanation in post #264.
What's YOUR take on it?

still trying to wipe the dirt from the garbage of it

BreadOfLife said:
Luther called it "the Epistle of Straw" because it didn't conform to his theology.

so are you catholic or calvinist ? or both or just confused? i think the latter

BreadOfLife · Mar 13, 2019

CoreIssue said:
Works are the fruit of faith and salvation.
Paul did not limit salvation to not be by law. All works.
That includes the works prescribed by the Catholic Church.
Godly works earn rewards, not salvation.
James was driving home the point that is salvation does not result in works you are not saved.

No - James was clearly telling his readers in James 2:14-24 that faith is NOT simply about believing - that it includes works. This is why he goes so far in verse 24 as to say that a man is justified BY his works.

In verse 19, he states that all "belief" does is make you as "faithful" as the demons, who also "believe".
Without works - you don't have true faith.

BreadOfLife · Mar 13, 2019

Ezra said:
were not dealing with English..we are dealing with SCRIPTURES HELLO WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE .. there is NO such thing as PURGATORY period.. what part of the 2nd part is it YOU dont understand ? purgatory is a catholic fantasy island.. the moment your saved your sins are forgiven justified declared righteous . sanctified 3 steps 1. positional .placed in the Body of Christ. 2 progressive we grow in the grace and knowledge. we become a work in progress .3 ultimate we made it to heaven the job is finished ..... so thus there is NO holding place for the soul to be purified .so we can enter heaven ..the Blood purifies
Hebrews 9:22-24 King James Version (KJV)
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

1 Peter 1:21-23 King James Version (KJV)
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

22 Seeing ye have" purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit " unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

dont know what Bible you use nor do i care who or why didnt like the book of JAMES i realize your confused maybe disoriented get a real Bible do some searching you not find the word purgatory in the Bible any place

WRONG.
I've already shown that Purgatory is a Biblical reality.

We see in Mal. 3:3, Jer. 6:27-30, Ezek. 22:18, Psalm 119:119, Psalm 37:20, Zech. 13:9, Isa 48:10, where God is the Great Refiner who burns away the impurities to get to the precious metal – the gold and silver.

In 1 Cor. 3:12-15, we read says that the Day of Judgment will disclose the foundation that a person builds upon and how it will be revealed:
1 Cor. 3:12-15
“If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.”

- This is not Heaven because the person SUFFERS.
- This is not Hell because the person is SAVED.
- This describes a THIRD state - a state of Purification/Purgation.

Matt. 5:25-26 tells us that unless we have settled our matters, we will be “handed over to the prison guard and will not be released until we have paid the last penny.”

Additionally, Matt. 12:32 states, “whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come”, which indicates that there IS purification after death for some.

Matt. 18:32-35 and Luke 12:58-59 are additional verses that support this doctrine.

BreadOfLife · Mar 13, 2019

Ezra said:
still trying to wipe the dirt from the garbage of it

so are you catholic or calvinist ? or both or just confused? i think the latter

Why would you ask if I was a Calvinist??
I gave no indication of this.

do you even understand what Calvinists believe??
How about sticking to the conversation . . .

Ezra · Mar 13, 2019

BreadOfLife said:
WRONG.
I've already shown that Purgatory is a Biblical reality.

We see in Mal. 3:3, Jer. 6:27-30, Ezek. 22:18, Psalm 119:119, Psalm 37:20, Zech. 13:9, Isa 48:10, where God is the Great Refiner who burns away the impurities to get to the precious metal – the gold and silver.

In 1 Cor. 3:12-15, we read says that the Day of Judgment will disclose the foundation that a person builds upon and how it will be revealed:
1 Cor. 3:12-15
“If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.”

that is works tested by fire has nothing to do with your fantasy island of purgatory .. when you get a real presentation let me know . until then i will post no more you haven't even come close . you sure took scripture and twisted it all around . you seem to like to refer to luther .. so your STRAW MAN theory lets hope it dont get close to the fire. as smokey the bear says only you can prevent Forrest fires . until them i wait for something close

BreadOfLife · Mar 13, 2019

Ezra said:
that is works tested by fire has nothing to do with your fantasy island of purgatory .. when you get a real presentation let me know . until then i will post no more you haven't even come close . you sure took scripture and twisted it all around . you seem to like to refer to luther .. so your STRAW MAN theory lets hope it dont get close to the fire. as smokey the bear says only you can prevent Forrest fires . until them i wait for something close

You'll "post no more" because you have NO response.
It's difficult to come to terms with Biblical truth when you've believed in a lie for so long.

Don't worry - you'll get there . . .

Ezra · Mar 13, 2019

BreadOfLife said:
You'll "post no more" because you have NO response.
It's difficult to come to terms with Biblical truth when you've believed in a lie for so long.

Don't worry - you'll get there . . .

dont flatter your self A fool’s way is right in his own eyes, but whoever listens to counsel is wise.

BreadOfLife · Mar 13, 2019

Ezra said:
dont flatter your self A fool’s way is right in his own eyes, but whoever listens to counsel is wise.

Then come back when you're ready to have a grown-up conversation about this.

Ezra · Mar 13, 2019

BreadOfLife said:
Then come back when you're ready to have a grown-up conversation about this.

sure will just as soon as a find a real grown up. instead of some wanna be theologian with a i.q of a pre k school kid. if you want to trade insults .i can do that but that would come down to your level . fact remains purgatory is not in the Bible . not one scripture uses purgatory .. i used scriptures on justification sanctification purified by the blood . lets face it the apostle paul l wrote he would not have us ignorant.. well your ignorance is showing.. ignorant of the word . i have no time for your folly ..i so hope that word is not above your level of understanding

BreadOfLife · Mar 13, 2019

Ezra said:
sure will just as soon as a find a real grown up. instead of some wanna be theologian with a i.q of a pre k school kid. if you want to trade insults .i can do that but that would come down to your level . fact remains purgatory is not in the Bible . not one scripture uses purgatory .. i used scriptures on justification sanctification purified by the blood . lets face it the apostle paul l wrote he would not have us ignorant.. well your ignorance is showing.. ignorant of the word . i have no time for your folly ..i so hope that word is not above your level of understanding

Uhhhhh, no.
Fact remains - I gave you several Scripture verses that support Purgatory - and you have not explained them away.

Here's another one:
In 2 Macc. 42-46, we see that Judas Maccabeus prays for the men of his army, killed in battle. Verse 44 says, “… for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.”

Now - 1 & 2 Maccabees were considered Scripture in the OPEN Jewish Canon that Jesus and the NT writers studied from. We see references to these Books in the NT.
The author of Hebrews 11:35 teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons described in 2 Macc. 7:1-42. The practice of praying for the dead is STILL done by Orthodox Jews to this day.

If you can't at least TRY to debunk those verses - then just admit that you can't and move on . . .

There is more than one set of apocryphas.

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