Apostolicity

CoreIssue · Mar 11, 2019

Mayflower said:
I am close to some of those places!!! That would be neat to visit. I remember first coming up from Texas and seeing an Amish girl on a greyhound on the way to Indiana. I kept trying not to stare. I just never saw anyone dressed like that before. She seemed nice, but didn't really talk to me.

That has been how Amish dress seemingly forever.

If you don't not somehow make a friend with an adult they are not going to talk to you.

My father did, but they still didn't talk to me or my mother.

Never make the one wearing the black so deep it looks purple angry. They all feared him.

BreadOfLife · Mar 12, 2019

marks said:
What does this mean?

Will "somewhat biblical" be different from "apostolic"? What about "totally Biblical"? Will that differ from "Apostolic"?

Much love!
Mark

"Apostolic" means not only taught by the Apostles - but a SUCCESSION from the Apostles.

In Acts 1, we see the Assembly gathering to choose a successor to Judas. I say "Successor" and not "Replacement" because of verse 20, which is a reference to Psalm 109:
Acts 1:20
"May another take his office."

The Greek word used here for "Office" is "Episkopay" or BISHOPRIC.
This was a successive office which was passed down to others. Irenaeus, writing towards the end of the 2nd century lists ALL of the bishops of Rome, starting with Peter - all the way down to HIS day (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [inter A.D. 180-190]).

marks · Mar 12, 2019

BreadOfLife said:
"Apostolic" means not only taught by the Apostles - but a SUCCESSION from the Apostles.

In Acts 1, we see the Assembly gathering to choose a successor to Judas. I say "Successor" and not "Replacement" because of verse 20, which is a reference to Psalm 109:
Acts 1:20
"May another take his office."

The Greek word used here for "Office" is "Episkopay" or BISHOPRIC.
This was a successive office which was passed down to others. Irenaeus, writing towards the end of the 2nd century lists ALL of the bishops of Rome, starting with Peter - all the way down to HIS day (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [inter A.D. 180-190]).

So does that mean "apostolic" may differ from the Bible or not?

Much love!
Mark

BreadOfLife · Mar 12, 2019

marks said:
So does that mean "apostolic" may differ from the Bible or not?

Much love!
Mark

"Differ"?? No.
Apostolic Tradition doesn't "Differ" from Scripture. It simply sometimes reveals more than what was revealed in Scripture.

I'll give you an example: Baptism.
There is not ONE SINGLE description of a Baptism in ALL of the NT. There are many mentions of Baptism - but NOT a description of the process. We get the actual process from Apostolic Tradition - and NOT Scripture.

marks · Mar 12, 2019

BreadOfLife said:
"Differ"?? No.
Apostolic Tradition doesn't "Differ" from Scripture. It simply sometimes reveals more than what was revealed in Scripture.

I'll give you an example: Baptism.
There is not ONE SINGLE description of a Baptism in ALL of the NT. There are many mentions of Baptism - but NOT a description of the process. We get the actual process from Apostolic Tradition - and NOT Scripture.

OK. Adds to Scripture.

Contains what is not contained in Scripture.

Using your example I disagree. The word itself tells us what we need to know. There is no need to "add revelation" as if what the Bible said was insufficient.

God told us that He had already given us everything we need. What remains to be added? Thing we don't need.

So I remain Sola Scriptura.

Much love!
Mark

BreadOfLife · Mar 12, 2019

marks said:
OK. Adds to Scripture.

Contains what is not contained in Scripture.

Using your example I disagree. The word itself tells us what we need to know. There is no need to "add revelation" as if what the Bible said was insufficient.

God told us that He had already given us everything we need. What remains to be added? Thing we don't need.

So I remain Sola Scriptura.

Much love!
Mark

Okay,- using Scripture alone - can you show me where it says that a person must be dunked 3 times - like MOST Protestant Baptisms?

marks · Mar 12, 2019

BreadOfLife said:
Okay,- using Scripture alone - can you show me where it says that a person must be dunked 3 times - like MOST Protestant Baptisms?

Huh?

Ask those who think such things. I don't.

Much love!
mark

Enoch111 · Mar 12, 2019

BreadOfLife said:
Okay,- using Scripture alone - can you show me where it says that a person must be dunked 3 times - like MOST Protestant Baptisms?

Actually trine immersion is practiced by only a small minority of non-Catholics.

BreadOfLife · Mar 12, 2019

marks said:
Huh?

Ask those who think such things. I don't.

Much love!
mark

Enoch111 said:
Actually trine immersion is practiced by only a small minority of non-Catholics.

Then, show me where Scripture states that immersion is the ONLY way a person can be Baptized.

And while you're busy looking for the verses - find one that says that Scripture is our SOLE Authority . . .

Triumph1300 · Mar 12, 2019

BreadOfLife said:
And while you're busy looking for the verses - find one that says that Scripture is our SOLE Authority . . .

Is there any other authority besides the Word of God ?

Triumph1300 · Mar 12, 2019

BreadOfLife said:
where it says that a person must be dunked 3 times - like MOST Protestant Baptisms?

I never saw or heard about that before.
Which protestants are requiring baptism three times?

BreadOfLife · Mar 12, 2019

Triumph1300 said:
Is there any other authority besides the Word of God ?

According to Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15 and John 20:21-23 - Christ gave His Church Supreme Authority on earth. He stated that WHATEVER the Church declared on earth would ALSO be ordained in Heaven . . .

Matt 16:18-19
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
I will give YOU the keys to the kingdom of heaven. WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven; and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Matt. 18:15-18
"If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.
If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that 'every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.'
If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
Amen, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven, and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

John 16:12-15
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.
He will glorify me, because he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.

John 20:21-23
Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins YOU FORGIVE are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU RETAIN are retained.”

BreadOfLife · Mar 12, 2019

Triumph1300 said:
I never saw or heard about that before.
Which protestants are requiring baptism three times?

Every Protestant Baptism I've been to or have witnessed on videotape.
However - I loosened the challenge to a mere mention of "full immersion only" in Scripture.

STILL WAITING for that verse . . .

charity · Mar 13, 2019

Hello there,

There is no Scriptural warrant for either apostolic succession, or the continuation of water baptism. There is only one baptism mentioned in the sevenfold unity of the Spirit of Ephesians chapter four, which we are exhorted to 'keep'; and that is the baptism which the flesh has no part in, performed by the Holy Spirit.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Enoch111 · Mar 13, 2019

charity said:
...or the continuation of water baptism.

Where did you come up with this bizarre notion? Water baptism and the end of the age are in the same context, and those are the words of Christ. Therefore Christians have been baptized since Pentecost and continue to be baptized. Both water baptism and Spirit baptism are necessary.

MATTHEW 28
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world [the age]. Amen.

Episkopos · Mar 13, 2019

BreadOfLife said:
"Differ"?? No.
Apostolic Tradition doesn't "Differ" from Scripture. It simply sometimes reveals more than what was revealed in Scripture.

I'll give you an example: Baptism.
There is not ONE SINGLE description of a Baptism in ALL of the NT. There are many mentions of Baptism - but NOT a description of the process. We get the actual process from Apostolic Tradition - and NOT Scripture.

The Didache describes the various ways that baptism is done. Immersion in running water is preferred...but static water will do. Finally water poured 3 times on the head is also sufficient.

This shows the flexibility of the method. There is no legalism in the how we are to baptize.

Episkopos · Mar 13, 2019

BreadOfLife said:
"Apostolic" means not only taught by the Apostles - but a SUCCESSION from the Apostles.

This is false. The succession is the Holy Spirit. Bishops are not kings. There is no legalism in the body of Christ. The Holy Spirit decides who will do what...not by the selection of men.

So then what is being promoted in succession is the church of men...not of God. God decides who will bear what calling. A tradition that is apostolic can't go contrary to the original apostles. That is error.

If it isn't the Holy Spirit that is doing the commanding...then it is NOT of God. It is religious and man-made in nature....according to the traditions of men. Who in their right mind would settle for that over God taking the initiative?

The initiative must always remain with God. And Jesus Christ as the Head of the church ACTIVE in building.

marks · Mar 13, 2019

Water baptism was a Jewish tradition when a gentile became a Jew. Thusly it was grossly offensive to the Pharisees for John to suggest to them that they were no better off then a gentile, needing to be baptized.

Baptism was continued by Jesus' instruction, and has continued in the Gentile church now by our own tradition.

But according to the Bible, there is 1 baptism, and our baptism is into Jesus in His death, burial, and resurrection.

Much love!
Mark

marks · Mar 13, 2019

BreadOfLife said:
Every Protestant Baptism I've been to or have witnessed on videotape.
However - I loosened the challenge to a mere mention of "full immersion only" in Scripture.

STILL WAITING for that verse . . .

None of the hundreds of baptisms I've seen were this repeated thing, but so what?

The word itself, baptidzo, means that. So any place baptidzo is used is calling for immersion.

Much love!

CoreIssue · Mar 13, 2019

Enoch111 said:
Where did you come up with this bizarre notion? Water baptism and the end of the age are in the same context, and those are the words of Christ. Therefore Christians have been baptized since Pentecost and continue to be baptized. Both water baptism and Spirit baptism are necessary.

MATTHEW 28
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world [the age]. Amen.

For clarity water baptism is the outward sign of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It saves no one.

Apostolicity

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