Apostolicity

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charity

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Where did you come up with this bizarre notion?
Water baptism and the end of the age are in the same context, and those are the words of Christ. Therefore Christians have been baptized since Pentecost and continue to be baptized. Both water baptism and Spirit baptism are necessary.

MATTHEW 28
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world [the age]. Amen.
'Endeavouring to keep
the unity of the Spirit
in the bond of peace.

There is -
.. one body, and
.... one Spirit, even as ye are called in
...... one hope of your calling;
........ One Lord,
...... one faith,
.... one baptism,
.. One God and Father of all,
Who is above all, and through all, and in you all.'

(Ephesians 4:3-6)

Hello @Enoch111,

* This is the sevenfold unity of the spirit that we are exhorted to 'keep'.

* During the Acts period there were two baptisms operating in unison, now, at the end of the Acts period One Baptism is in force, and that is a baptism in which the flesh has no part; but is by the operation of the Holy Spirit Himself; in which we are identified with Christ in His death, burial, quickening and resurrection.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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Enoch111

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* During the Acts period there were two baptisms operating in unison, now, at the end of the Acts period One Baptism is in force, and that is a baptism in which the flesh has no part
You should know that this is Hyper-Dispensational NONSENSE. So when the apostles were baptizing people, according to you, "the flesh" was involved! Do you see how bizarre and unscriptural this teaching is?

Also, while Paul wrote about the one baptism in the Spirit in Ephesians, he also wrote about the doctrine of baptisms (plural) in Hebrews, and that applies to Christians throughout Church history. So you need to harmonize Scripture, instead of going off on a tangent.
 
D

Dave L

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Here's how it works. Jesus told the disciples to baptize believers in the Name (singular) of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This they did baptizing all in the name of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the NT name for YAHWEH, the triune God. And Baptism = dipping. The same word used for dying fabric by submersing it. Or for making pickles submersing them in brine.

No examples of any other type of baptism other than immersion in water exist in the NT. Infant baptism is not found, having no direct scripture support, nor is pouring or sprinkling which came about later.
 
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Enoch111

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For clarity water baptism is the outward sign of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It saves no one.
Correct. Water baptism saves no one (contrary to what many believe). And while water baptism can be seen to represent the baptism WITH the Holy Spirit, it is more representative of the death, burial, and resurrection of the sinner WITH Christ, so that he or she can (and should) "walk in newness of life" by the power of the Spirit. See Romans 6.

But when Hyper-Dispensationalists teach that water baptism is no longer a NECESSITY for those who have received the gift of the Holy Spirit, that is not only sheer nonsense but a violation of Christ's command. From BEWARE OF HYPER DISPENSATIONALISM here is an excerpt:

'“Hyper-dispensationalism” is characterized by making a sharp division between the ministry of Christ and that of the Apostles, and of further dividing Paul’s teaching from that of Peter and the other apostles. Some of the well-known teachers of hyper- or ultra-dispensationalism are E.W. Bullinger, Cornelius Stam, J.C. O’Hair, Charles Welch, Otis Sellers, A.E. Knoch, and Charles Baker...
[according to their teachings]
(5) Baptism and the Lord’s Supper were given to Paul before he received the church age mysteries; thus they are not for the churches today. Hyper-dispensationalists differ on this point. Some accept both baptism and the Lord’s Supper; some reject water baptism and the Lord’s Supper altogether; while others reject only baptism and keep the Lord’s Supper...'

Beware of Hyper Dispensationalism
 
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BreadOfLife

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The Didache describes the various ways that baptism is done. Immersion in running water is preferred...but static water will do. Finally water poured 3 times on the head is also sufficient.

This shows the flexibility of the method. There is no legalism in the how we are to baptize.
The Didache is The Teachings of the Twelve Apostles - hence, Apostolic Tradition.
 

BreadOfLife

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This is false. The succession is the Holy Spirit. Bishops are not kings. There is no legalism in the body of Christ. The Holy Spirit decides who will do what...not by the selection of men.

So then what is being promoted in succession is the church of men...not of God. God decides who will bear what calling. A tradition that is apostolic can't go contrary to the original apostles. That is error.

If it isn't the Holy Spirit that is doing the commanding...then it is NOT of God. It is religious and man-made in nature....according to the traditions of men. Who in their right mind would settle for that over God taking the initiative?

The initiative must always remain with God. And Jesus Christ as the Head of the church ACTIVE in building.
No - this isn't "false."
What you said goes without saying. Of course the Holy Spirit decides - ALONG with the Church.

Jesus
told the leaders of His Church that they would be guided by the Holy Spirit to ALL TRUTH (John 16:12-15). This is why, at the Council of Jerusalem, the Church Leaders (Bishops) made the following statement in their Letter.

Acts 15:28-29
"It is the decision of the holy Spirit and of us not to place on you any burden beyond these necessities, namely, to abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, from blood, from meats of strangled animals, and from unlawful marriage."
 

BreadOfLife

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None of the hundreds of baptisms I've seen were this repeated thing, but so what?
The word itself, baptidzo, means that. So any place baptidzo is used is calling for immersion.

Much love!
Since you seem to be having trouble with this point - I'll explain it to you this way:

The Greek word for "Brother" is "Adelphos".
It means brother from the SAME mother.

HOWEVER - In the Bible, there are uses of this word for step-brother, half-brother, cousin, uncle, neighbor, fellow countryman, fellow believer, etc. In fact - of the 344 times we see this word in the NT, only 41 time (12%) it is almost definitely referring to a uterine sibling.

The SAME s true for the word "Baptism". Simply because the word originally meant "to be immersed" does NOT mean that this is it's ONLY use. You have a LOT to learn about languages . . .
 

CoreIssue

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We are immersed and the Holy Spirit and in water baptism and water.

John the Baptist did nothing but immersions. Examples of others being baptized by immersion.
 

marks

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Since you seem to be having trouble with this point - I'll explain it to you this way:

The Greek word for "Brother" is "Adelphos".
It means brother from the SAME mother.

HOWEVER - In the Bible, there are uses of this word for step-brother, half-brother, cousin, uncle, neighbor, fellow countryman, fellow believer, etc. In fact - of the 344 times we see this word in the NT, only 41 time (12%) it is almost definitely referring to a uterine sibling.

The SAME s true for the word "Baptism". Simply because the word originally meant "to be immersed" does NOT mean that this is it's ONLY use. You have a LOT to learn about languages . . .

Good information on Adelphos. Yes, I'm familiar with that word and it's uses, however, it's Non Sequitor towards "baptidzo". Which would be another Logical Fallacy.

Actually, same with your disparaging comments about my knowledge of languages. That has nothing to do with the meaning of baptidzo. So, still yet another Logical Fallacy, this one an Ad Hominem.

It's so true . . . the more you look, the more you see!

Much love!
mark
 
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BreadOfLife

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Good information on Adelphos. Yes, I'm familiar with that word and it's uses, however, it's Non Sequitor towards "baptidzo". Which would be another Logical Fallacy.

Actually, same with your disparaging comments about my knowledge of languages. That has nothing to do with the meaning of baptidzo. So, still yet another Logical Fallacy, this one an Ad Hominem.

It's so true . . . the more you look, the more you see!

Much love!
mark
Wrong.
It's already been proven that "Baptize" in Greek does NOT always mean "immerse".

The Didache, which is a contemporary document of the NT uses the SAME Koine Greek to describe Baptism - yet it allows for POURING.

So, your ignorance of languages DOES come into play here and was NOT an "ad hominem" - but a very crucial part of the argument.

Game.
Set.
MATCH.
 

BreadOfLife

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We are immersed and the Holy Spirit and in water baptism and water.

John the Baptist did nothing but immersions. Examples of others being baptized by immersion.
WRONG.
We don't know WHAT John did because there is NO description of it in the Bible.
 
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Marymog

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We are immersed and the Holy Spirit and in water baptism and water.

John the Baptist did nothing but immersions. Examples of others being baptized by immersion.
Where in scripture does it say that John the Baptist did nothing but immersions?

Curious and bible study Mary
 

Episkopos

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No - this isn't "false."
What you said goes without saying. Of course the Holy Spirit decides - ALONG with the Church.

Jesus
told the leaders of His Church that they would be guided by the Holy Spirit to ALL TRUTH (John 16:12-15). This is why, at the Council of Jerusalem, the Church Leaders (Bishops) made the following statement in their Letter.

Acts 15:28-29
"It is the decision of the holy Spirit and of us not to place on you any burden beyond these necessities, namely, to abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, from blood, from meats of strangled animals, and from unlawful marriage."

Read the bible as to how the Holy Spirit speaks. Now compare that to a human political election...and decide what is taking place when the "pontifex maximus" (itself a pagan position) is voted for. If you wish to remain in the dark....do so.
 
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marks

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Wrong.
It's already been proven that "Baptize" in Greek does NOT always mean "immerse".

The Didache, which is a contemporary document of the NT uses the SAME Koine Greek to describe Baptism - yet it allows for POURING.

So, your ignorance of languages DOES come into play here and was NOT an "ad hominem" - but a very crucial part of the argument.

Game.
Set.
MATCH.

You amaze me!

What has been proven, my friend, is that a non-Biblical document tells us what some people did. It does not modify Scripture, nor does it change the meanings of any words.

And even if we were to look at extra-Biblical sources as if they had the same Authority as the Bible, interestingly . . .

From The Didache with Commentary

Chapter 7
On Baptism.

7:1 But concerning Baptism, this is how you shall baptize.
7:2 Having first recited all these things, baptize in living water in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
7:3 But if you do not have running water, then baptize in other water;
7:4 And if you are not able in cold, then in warm.
7:5 But if you have neither, then pour water on the head three times in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
7:6 But before the Baptism, let him that baptizes and him that is baptized fast, and any others also who are able;
7:7 And you shall order him that is baptized to fast a day or two before.

What is interesting to me is that it says, baptize this way, baptize that way, or baptize this other way, or, if you can't, then "pour". Not "Baptize the head." "Pour on the head".

Here's another fun source:

The Interlinear Didache - Apocrypha - Psalm11918.org

From here we see that an entirely different word is used where we read "pour", it's not baptidzo at all!

But that aside, I'm glad you brought up the Didache, because, whatever it actually is, and whatever the source Actually is - there is some dispute, you know - even this document demonstrates a difference between baptismatos, immersion, and ekxeon, pour out.


i περι δε του βαπτισματος, ουτω βαπτισατε, ταυτα παντα προειποντες, βαπτισατε εις το ονομα του


1 About (rather) the immersion: thus immerse (ye), these all saying first: immerse (ye) in(to) the name of the




πατρος και του υιου και του αγιου πνευματος εν υδατι ζωντι.

Father and of the Son and of the holy Spirit, in water living.



ii εαν δε μη εχης υδωρ ζων, εις αλλο υδωρ βαπτισον, ει δ'' ου δυνασαι εν ψυχρω, εν θερμω.


2 [Then/If] - not you have water ''alive'': into other water immerse; if - not: you can [will be able to] in cold, [or] in warm.




iii εαν δε αμφοτερα μη εχης, εκχεον εις την κεφαλην τρις υδωρ εις ονομα πατρος και υιου καυ αγιου


3 If - both not you have: [pour out] onto the head three water in(to) name Father and Son and holy




spirit.

πνευματος.


So, what we actually see here is that whomever wrote this document, demonstrates that to baptize is one thing, and to "pour onto someone's head" is something different.

I don't know, but I'm still thinking Ad Hominem. Your last post adds more of the same. And your "proof" supports my assertion.

Much love!
mark
 
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BreadOfLife

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Try again. There is.

There are two Baptisms, both by immersion. Holy Spirit water. Always age of consent. Never babies.

Two births, Born of water, childbirth and born the Holy Spirit.
You right about the 2 births - but wrong about the 2 Baptisms.
there is only ONE Baptism
 
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BreadOfLife

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You amaze me!

What has been proven, my friend, is that a non-Biblical document tells us what some people did. It does not modify Scripture, nor does it change the meanings of any words.

And even if we were to look at extra-Biblical sources as if they had the same Authority as the Bible, interestingly . . .
From The Didache with Commentary

What is interesting to me is that it says, baptize this way, baptize that way, or baptize this other way, or, if you can't, then "pour". Not "Baptize the head." "Pour on the head".

Here's another fun source:

The Interlinear Didache - Apocrypha - Psalm11918.org

From here we see that an entirely different word is used where we read "pour", it's not baptidzo at all!

But that aside, I'm glad you brought up the Didache, because, whatever it actually is, and whatever the source Actually is - there is some dispute, you know - even this document demonstrates a difference between baptismatos, immersion, and ekxeon, pour out.

i περι δε του βαπτισματος, ουτω βαπτισατε, ταυτα παντα προειποντες, βαπτισατε εις το ονομα του

1 About (rather) the immersion: thus immerse (ye), these all saying first: immerse (ye) in(to) the name of the



πατρος και του υιου και του αγιου πνευματος εν υδατι ζωντι.

Father and of the Son and of the holy Spirit, in water living.

ii εαν δε μη εχης υδωρ ζων, εις αλλο υδωρ βαπτισον, ει δ'' ου δυνασαι εν ψυχρω, εν θερμω.

2 [Then/If] - not you have water ''alive'': into other water immerse; if - not: you can [will be able to] in cold, [or] in warm.



iii εαν δε αμφοτερα μη εχης, εκχεον εις την κεφαλην τρις υδωρ εις ονομα πατρος και υιου καυ αγιου

3 If - both not you have: [pour out] onto the head three water in(to) name Father and Son and holy



spirit.
πνευματος.
So, what we actually see here is that whomever wrote this document, demonstrates that to baptize is one thing, and to "pour onto someone's head" is something different.

I don't know, but I'm still thinking Ad Hominem. Your last post adds more of the same. And your "proof" supports my assertion.

Much love!
mark
You completely missed the point.

It doesn't matter that The Didache isn't Scripture. I wasn't comparing it to Scripture. I was showing you it to you as a contemporary document WITH Scripture in its treatment of Baptism.

YOU keep ignorantly trying to imply that "Baptism" is defined in Scripture. It's NOT - it's merely MENTIONED. In the Didache, it's actually described.

Therefore - your ignorance of language was not an "ad hominem" - but an important factor in this debate.
 

BreadOfLife

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Read the bible as to how the Holy Spirit speaks. Now compare that to a human political election...and decide what is taking place when the "pontifex maximus" (itself a pagan position) is voted for. If you wish to remain in the dark....do so.
"Pontifex Maximus" is NOT a title of the Pope.
In fact, "Pope" isn't a title either . . .
  • Bishop of Rome.
  • Vicar of Christ.
  • Successor of the Prince of the Apostles.
  • Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church.
  • Primate of Italy.
  • Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman Province.
  • Sovereign of the State of the Vatican City.
  • Servant of the Servants of God.
Do your homework . . .
 
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