Just curious.......

Willie T said:

I am curious if anyone here disagrees with this concept: (For simplicity it is wrapped up in the final sentence.)

Obviously there are some kinds of discontinuity between Bible-time provisions and our own day. We should stop to analyze them. Some of these discontinuities are redemptively historical in character (pertaining to the coming of the New Covenant and the finished work of Christ), while others are cultural in character (pertaining to simple changes of time, place or lifestyle).

The latter are unrelated to the former.... so please try not to get hung up in trying to make that an issue.

There are cultural differences, not only between our society and the Old Testament, but also between modern America and the New Testament (e. g., its mention of "whited sepulchers", "social kisses', and "meats offered to idols") — indeed, there are cultural differences even within the Old Testament (e. g., life in the wilderness, in the land, in captivity) and within the New Testament (e. g., Jewish culture, Gentile culture) themselves.

Such cultural differences pose important hermeneutical questions — sometimes very vexing ones — since the “culture gap” between biblical times and our own is so wide; however, these differences are not especially relevant to the question of ethical validity.

That is, it is one thing to realize that we must translate biblical commands about a lost ox (Exodus 23:4) or withholding pay from someone who mows fields (James 5:4) into terms relevant to our present culture (e. g., about misplaced credit cards or remuneration of factory workers). It is quite another thing altogether to say that such commands carry no ethical authority today!

God obviously communicated to His people in terms of their own day and cultural setting, but what He said to them, He fully expects us to obey in our own cultural setting, lest the complete authority of His word be shortchanged in our lives.

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A good example of this is the tithing issue...also called first fruits. Since in the OT it was crops, oil and such, many choose to ignore the idea in principle. They say that we no longer have to tithe because we aren't farmers. But the first fruits of our increase...well nowadays the only way we do so is with money. In the Didache...it includes money (as well as clothing) in the first fruit offering to the teacher, prophets and the poor.

Willie T you wrote this in another thread: -

Willie T said:

Good grief! The rabid obsession to hope to find some sort of "End Times" prophecy in every word you read seems to have eaten some of you alive.

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The question I was posing in that thread was the time context with which we should understand that particular covenantal promise was being given in Read the particular verse with the wrong time context then our understanding is all out of wack.

In this thread you have raised this very same issue, but on our understanding of the Law. What is the contextual understanding that we should have when reading the Bible. Perhaps there is a rabid obsession in hoping to find a law which is applicable even in todays context when the context back then was probably completely different.

This understanding of the Law and their context as applicable to the Gospels, also means that our understanding of the Gospel can also be out of wack.

Shalom

One example I used to use in showing how difficult the law is to keep is from Due 22:8. It says if you build a new house, you must have a battlement for your roof. This is basically a wall that would prevent folks from falling off your roof.

I imagine that with high rise apartment buildings with access to the roof being present, there are building codes calling for that. Otherwise, who has a battlement and who hangs out on the roof? In some cultures this may still happen, but not here in the USA.

Yet we can apply this rule to other things more relevant to today's society. If you have a balcony, you need railings, for example.

There is a spiritual meaning as well. Protect yourself and those with you from straying from the truth.

I like the example of tithing (which is a bit different from first fruits, by the way). It'd be pretty funny to see a farmer leading a newborn calf into Church and saying,"here ya go Pastor!". Exodus 22:29 would be funny too. It says to give the first fruits of your liquor! And it even says not to delay it! GET THAT BOTTLE TO THE CHURCH ASAP!

I'm just imagining a church collection plate in Lynchburg, TN with bottles of Jack Daniels weighing it down.

Willie T said:

Can you try that again? I can't see any parallel to the two threads. It seems you were saying that Abe being told to move to a new neighborhood was an end times prophecy.... and I was asking if things God said back then still carried any weight today.

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You have missed the point. It is the context in which we read the passages that colours our understanding as to whether or not we are out of wack and consider if they still carry the same weight today..

You are really talking about understanding the context just as I was talking about understanding the context in the thread that I had started. You have expressed a short term context is what should drive our understanding of Abe which is really out of wack as to where God intended Abe to end up, eventually, in a righteous earth. Your thread is also about eventually ending up in a righteous place. It all comes down to understanding the context in which we should read the scriptures to come to the right understanding.

Shalom

PS: - It seems to me that the covenantal outcomes are framed within Biblical Law which is just as relevant for today as it was back then.

Willie T said:

I am curious if anyone here disagrees with this concept: (For simplicity it is wrapped up in the final sentence.)

Obviously there are some kinds of discontinuity between Bible-time provisions and our own day. We should stop to analyze them. Some of these discontinuities are redemptively historical in character (pertaining to the coming of the New Covenant and the finished work of Christ), while others are cultural in character (pertaining to simple changes of time, place or lifestyle).

The latter are unrelated to the former.... so please try not to get hung up in trying to make that an issue.

There are cultural differences, not only between our society and the Old Testament, but also between modern America and the New Testament (e. g., its mention of "whited sepulchers", "social kisses', and "meats offered to idols") — indeed, there are cultural differences even within the Old Testament (e. g., life in the wilderness, in the land, in captivity) and within the New Testament (e. g., Jewish culture, Gentile culture) themselves.

Such cultural differences pose important hermeneutical questions — sometimes very vexing ones — since the “culture gap” between biblical times and our own is so wide; however, these differences are not especially relevant to the question of ethical validity.

That is, it is one thing to realize that we must translate biblical commands about a lost ox (Exodus 23:4) or withholding pay from someone who mows fields (James 5:4) into terms relevant to our present culture (e. g., about misplaced credit cards or remuneration of factory workers). It is quite another thing altogether to say that such commands carry no ethical authority today!

God obviously communicated to His people in terms of their own day and cultural setting, but what He said to them, He fully expects us to obey in our own cultural setting, lest the complete authority of His word be shortchanged in our lives.

Click to expand...

1 Corinthians 6 "Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted."

This is what Paul wrote to the Greeks, referring to the ancient Hebrew history, more than a thousand years removed from their time, a very different culture, written for their example, that they should not lust after evil things.

Look at what happened, and what God said and did, so that our desires will be righteous.

Yes, I think He fully expects us to take the lessons from Scripture and use them to order our lives.

The battlements on the roof is a great example. Loving others means protecting them from harm. The evil desire may be the thrill of a ledge without a wall, or the asthetic, but it's not safe.

The ethical authority which you mention leads me to think about the guidance of love. If we love others, we will restore to them what they have lost, we will give them what they are due, even more, and we won't fault them doing what they need to do even if it's during church.

Yes, I think we have ample evidence that interpretting can be a . . . challenge sometimes. Just look around.

Much love!
Mark