Keys To The Kingdom Of Heaven

(setfree;54357)
So you say that the church is built on Peter?
(setfree;54358)
It says on this Rock, if Peter is called Rock it is beacause of the meaning behind the name not the person. Why wouldn't He say upon you I will build the church. It says Rock-a man like a rock(strength of soul) .
Paul says“So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are citizens with the saints and also members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the cornerstone” (Eph 2:19-20).So the Church is built upon the foundation of the apostles (and prophets). But Peter is the rock of that foundation. Jesus doesn’t say you to Peter because he is making a pun, which gets lost in the translation. Don’t forget Jesus was speaking Aramaic and saying “you are Rock and on this Rock I will build my Church.”Jesus did have a sense of humour.He is actually giving Peter a threefold blessing:1. Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven.”2. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church3. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven(setfree;54357)
It is people like Peter-strength-firmness, that he will build His church.
Only in your imagination. Not in scripture.

Another explanation :Jesus was referring not to Peter, but to Peter’s confession of faith in verse 16: “You are the Christ, the son of the living God.” Jesus had never explicitly taught Peter and the other disciples the fullness of His identity, and He recognized that God had sovereignly opened Peter’s eyes and revealed to him who Jesus really was. His confession of Christ as Messiah poured forth from him, a heart-felt declaration of Peter’s personal faith in Jesus. It is this personal faith in Christ which is the hallmark of the true Christian. Those who have placed their faith in Christ, as Peter did, are the church. Peter expresses this in 1 Peter 2:4 when he addressed the believers who had been dispersed around the ancient world: “Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.”At this point, Jesus declares that God had revealed this truth to Peter. The word for “Peter,” Petros, means a small stone (John 1:42). Jesus used a play on words here with petra (“on this rock”) which means a foundation boulder, as in Matthew 7:24, 25 when He described the rock upon which the wise man builds his house. Peter himself uses the same imagery in his first epistle: the church is built of numerous small petros “living stones” (1 Peter 2:5) who, like Peter, confess that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, and those confessions of faith are the bedrock of the church.In addition, the New Testament makes it abundantly clear that Christ is both the foundation (Acts 4:11, 12; 1 Corinthians 3:11) and the head (Ephesians 5:23) of the church. It is a mistake to think that here He is giving either of those roles to Peter. There is a sense in which the apostles played a foundational role in the building of the church (Ephesians 2:20), but the role of primacy is reserved for Christ alone, not assigned to Peter. So, Jesus’ words here are best interpreted as a simple play on words in that a boulder-like truth came from the mouth of one who was called a small stone. And Christ Himself is called the “chief cornerstone” (1 Peter 2:6, 7). The chief cornerstone of any building was that upon which the building was anchored. If Christ declared Himself to be the cornerstone, how could Peter be the rock upon which the church was built? It is more likely that the believers, of which Peter is one, are the stones which make up the church, anchored upon the Cornerstone, “and he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame” (1 Peter 2:6).The Roman Catholic Church uses the argument that Peter is the rock to which Jesus referred as evidence that it is the one true church. As we have seen, Peter's being the rock is not the only valid interpretation of this verse. Even if Peter is the rock in Matthew 16:18, this is meaningless in giving the Roman Catholic Church any authority. Scripture nowhere records Peter being in Rome. Scripture nowhere describes Peter as being supreme over the other apostles. The New Testament does not describe Peter as being the “all authoritative leader” of the early Christian church. Peter was not the first pope, and Peter did not start the Roman Catholic Church. The origin of the Catholic Church is not in the teachings of Peter or any other apostle. If Peter truly was the founder of the Roman Catholic Church, it would be in full agreement with what Peter taught (Acts chapter 2, 1 Peter, 2 Peter).Peter was named first Pope until 300 years after he died. Christ is our Rock,our cornerstone, our Capstone ect.

(kriss;54364)
Another explanation :Jesus was referring not to Peter, but to Peter’s confession of faith in verse 16: “You are the Christ, the son of the living God.” Jesus had never explicitly taught Peter and the other disciples the fullness of His identity, and He recognized that God had sovereignly opened Peter’s eyes and revealed to him who Jesus really was. His confession of Christ as Messiah poured forth from him, a heart-felt declaration of Peter’s personal faith in Jesus. It is this personal faith in Christ which is the hallmark of the true Christian. Those who have placed their faith in Christ, as Peter did, are the church. Peter expresses this in 1 Peter 2:4 when he addressed the believers who had been dispersed around the ancient world: “Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.”At this point, Jesus declares that God had revealed this truth to Peter. The word for “Peter,” Petros, means a small stone (John 1:42). Jesus used a play on words here with petra (“on this rock”) which means a foundation boulder, as in Matthew 7:24, 25 when He described the rock upon which the wise man builds his house. Peter himself uses the same imagery in his first epistle: the church is built of numerous small petros “living stones” (1 Peter 2:5) who, like Peter, confess that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, and those confessions of faith are the bedrock of the church.In addition, the New Testament makes it abundantly clear that Christ is both the foundation (Acts 4:11, 12; 1 Corinthians 3:11) and the head (Ephesians 5:23) of the church. It is a mistake to think that here He is giving either of those roles to Peter. There is a sense in which the apostles played a foundational role in the building of the church (Ephesians 2:20), but the role of primacy is reserved for Christ alone, not assigned to Peter. So, Jesus’ words here are best interpreted as a simple play on words in that a boulder-like truth came from the mouth of one who was called a small stone. And Christ Himself is called the “chief cornerstone” (1 Peter 2:6, 7). The chief cornerstone of any building was that upon which the building was anchored. If Christ declared Himself to be the cornerstone, how could Peter be the rock upon which the church was built? It is more likely that the believers, of which Peter is one, are the stones which make up the church, anchored upon the Cornerstone, “and he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame” (1 Peter 2:6).The Roman Catholic Church uses the argument that Peter is the rock to which Jesus referred as evidence that it is the one true church. As we have seen, Peter's being the rock is not the only valid interpretation of this verse. Even if Peter is the rock in Matthew 16:18, this is meaningless in giving the Roman Catholic Church any authority. Scripture nowhere records Peter being in Rome. Scripture nowhere describes Peter as being supreme over the other apostles. The New Testament does not describe Peter as being the “all authoritative leader” of the early Christian church. Peter was not the first pope, and Peter did not start the Roman Catholic Church. The origin of the Catholic Church is not in the teachings of Peter or any other apostle. If Peter truly was the founder of the Roman Catholic Church, it would be in full agreement with what Peter taught (Acts chapter 2, 1 Peter, 2 Peter).Peter was named first Pope until 300 years after he died. Christ is our Rock,our cornerstone, our Capstone ect.
Hi kriss,As I pointed out earlier Peter's confession of faith was two sentences before Jesus calling him Rock. It makes no grammatical sense to say that Jesus' "this rock" refers to something two sentences earlier. So this rock only makes sense referring back to Petros in the same sentence.Petros and Petra were synonyms by the first century. They mean small stone and large rock. Centuries earlier there had been a difference in Attic Greek. But in Koine Greek at Jesus' time there was no difference.Jesus spoke Aramaic and Kepha, which is the name Jesus actually gave to Peter, meant large rock. Greek has gender endings so Whoever translated Matthews gospel (it was written in Aramic originally) had to use Petros for Peter rather than the feminine Petra ending. In Aramaic, Jesus was saying you are Kepha and on this Kepha I will built my Church. It would have been the same word. There was no play between small and large stones either in Aramaic or in Greek.As I have already argued there is plenty of evidence that Peter had a leadership role among the apostles - the scriptural evidence is overwhelming. I haven't said Peter was "supreme over the other apostles" or “the all authoritative leader” of the early Christian church. That is a straw man.And finally Peter was in Rome.

This was not my study but another veiw as you can probably tell I do not buy the fact there there is plenty of eveidence that this was refering to Peter as the verse as been debated for generations if there was plenty of proof that this was so it would not be debated as it is. It is my veiw that there is plenty of eveidence that this is not refering to Peter. And it certainly has nothing to do with the catholic church.So I guess we will have have to agree to disagee on this one for the time being.

From the scriptures you quoted Eph. 2:19-20. This is the foundation that the church was built upon. What was the foundations that the Apostles and Phophets laid out with Jesus being the chief cornerstone?I believe it to be the doctrines and teaching. Not the men themselves but the teachings that they laid down for us, the church, to build upon. These teachings are recorded in His Word-Jesus is the Word. So it still goes back to Jesus Christ! As long as you are building on the foundation(teachings) that they laid down...then you are building upon Christ the cornerstone. Jesus taught the Apostles, the apostles taught the church. So it was not just Peter that was given the keys...it was all those that built upon these doctrines. Even if the keys were given to Peter...Peter passed them on to us. These keys unlock how to walk in the kingdom. Conclusion is that the apostles built upon the teachings of Jesus...we build upon the foundation the apostles laid. Kingdom-means rule...these keys are to unlock how to rule(authority) in the spiritual realm.

(kriss;54367)
This was not my study but another veiw as you can probably tell I do not buy the fact there there is plenty of eveidence that this was refering to Peter as the verse as been debated for generations if there was plenty of proof that this was so it would not be debated as it is. It is my veiw that there is plenty of eveidence that this is not refering to Peter. And it certainly has nothing to do with the catholic church.So I guess we will have have to agree to disagee on this one for the time being.
I suspect that the centuries that this verse has been debated for is the time since the Reformation, when the reformers rejected the authority of the Pope. But I think you are right. We are not going to agree.

(setfree;54370)
From the scriptures you quoted Eph. 2:19-20. This is the foundation that the church was built upon. What was the foundations that the Apostles and Phophets laid out with Jesus being the chief cornerstone?I believe it to be the doctrines and teaching. Not the men themselves but the teachings that they laid down for us, the church, to build upon. These teachings are recorded in His Word-Jesus is the Word. So it still goes back to Jesus Christ! As long as you are building on the foundation(teachings) that they laid down...then you are building upon Christ the cornerstone. Jesus taught the Apostles, the apostles taught the church. So it was not just Peter that was given the keys...it was all those that built upon these doctrines. Even if the keys were given to Peter...Peter passed them on to us. These keys unlock how to walk in the kingdom. Conclusion is that the apostles built upon the teachings of Jesus...we build upon the foundation the apostles laid. Kingdom-means rule...these keys are to unlock how to rule(authority) in the spiritual realm.
I agree the apostles built on the teaching of Jesus, and the Church built on the teaching of the apostles (both written and oral). But as kriss said we are not going to agree on the meaning of the keys so we might as well leave it there.

IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER AND OF THE SON AND OF THE HOLY SPIRITHERE I AM AGAIN TO SHARE THE TRUTH OF GOD LOVE(winsome;54381)
I Agree The Apostles Built On The Teaching Of Jesus, And The Church Built On The Teaching Of The Apostles (both Written And Oral). But As Kriss Said We Are Not Going To Agree On The Meaning Of The Keys So We Might As Well Leave It There.
[COLOR="Blue]ALL THE WORD THAT YOU GUYS QUOTED FROM THE BIBLE IS NO ALIVE TO ALL OF YOU..WHY??? BECAUSE OF THE CORRUPTED FAITH...CORRUPTED FAITH IS FROM THE FLESH...ONLY SPIRIT THAT GIVE LIFE...FLESH WILL BRING YOU TO DEATH..FOR EXAMPLE...YOU GUYS BELIEVE ALL THE DISCIPLE'S ARE ALL DEAD.AND NO POINT TO PRAY FOR THEM...AND YOU GUYS SAY WE ONLY PRAY TO JESUS ONLY.BUT WHY DO YOU QUOTE THE BIBLE FROM ST. PAUL OR ANY OF THE APOSTLE'S WHEN YOU CLAIMED THE DISCIPLE'S ARE ALREADY DEAD??IF THEY ARE ALREADY DEAD...THEIR WORDS WHICH WRITEN IN THE BIBLE ARE DEAD TOO...SEE!! WHERE IS THE TRUTH ?? THE ANSWER IS "THERE IS NO TRUTH IN YOU" FOR THE FLESH IS ACTING WITHIN YOU... NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT.MAY GOD FORGIVE ALL OUR SIN.AMENFROM WATT

(watt;54416)
IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER AND OF THE SON AND OF THE HOLY SPIRITHERE I AM AGAIN TO SHARE THE TRUTH OF GOD LOVE[COLOR="Blue]ALL THE WORD THAT YOU GUYS QUOTED FROM THE BIBLE IS NO ALIVE TO ALL OF YOU..WHY??? BECAUSE OF THE CORRUPTED FAITH...CORRUPTED FAITH IS FROM THE FLESH...ONLY SPIRIT THAT GIVE LIFE...FLESH WILL BRING YOU TO DEATH..FOR EXAMPLE...YOU GUYS BELIEVE ALL THE DISCIPLE'S ARE ALL DEAD.AND NO POINT TO PRAY FOR THEM...AND YOU GUYS SAY WE ONLY PRAY TO JESUS ONLY.BUT WHY DO YOU QUOTE THE BIBLE FROM ST. PAUL OR ANY OF THE APOSTLE'S WHEN YOU CLAIMED THE DISCIPLE'S ARE ALREADY DEAD??IF THEY ARE ALREADY DEAD...THEIR WORDS WHICH WRITEN IN THE BIBLE ARE DEAD TOO...SEE!! WHERE IS THE TRUTH ?? THE ANSWER IS "THERE IS NO TRUTH IN YOU" FOR THE FLESH IS ACTING WITHIN YOU... NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT.MAY GOD FORGIVE ALL OUR SIN.AMENFROM WATT
Watt,How do your words relate to what I said?Where have I ever said that the apostles are dead and not alive in heaven?Where have I said we should pray to Jesus only?Cool down and get a grip on yourself.winsome

IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER AND OF THE SON AND OF THE HOLY SPIRITHERE I AM AGAIN TO SHARE THE TRUTH OF GOD LOVE(winsome;54424)
watt,How Do Your Words Relate To What I Said?Where Have I Ever Said That The Apostles Are Dead And Not Alive In Heaven?Where Have I Said We Should Pray To Jesus Only?Cool Down And Get A Grip On Yourself.Winsome
Praise The Lord !!!!That Is How The Holy Spirit Speak In Our Heart, Mind And Soul.For Your Info. And Dont Be Confuse To The Word "you Guys".MAY GOD FORGIVE ALL OUR SIN.AMENFROM WATT

As I said before Watt your ideas are the ones based in flesh not ours you confess to a man pray to a women and self appoint a man to follow instead of Christ so your flesh lectures to us are nothing but hypocrisy.

(kriss;54434)
As I said before Watt your ideas are the ones based in flesh not ours you confess to a man pray to a women and self appoint a man to follow instead of Christ so your flesh lectures to us are nothing but hypocrisy.
Agreed and amen.

(winsome;54424)
Watt,How do your words relate to what I said?Where have I ever said that the apostles are dead and not alive in heaven?Where have I said we should pray to Jesus only?Cool down and get a grip on yourself.winsome
Get a grip is right. According to Watt, since a person (such as myself and indeed, most believers) understand from God's Word that saints past do not need to be, and indeed should not be prayed to... that also means (Watt concludes) that it would be sensical to not believe or listen to their words spoken in life, giving instruction to us. Essentially... according to Watt, we can't learn from people unless we can also pray to them once they are dead.This of course, makes no sense whatsoever, and praying to a dead man after life, and listening to a dead man when he was alive has no connection at all. Truly, these are the conclusions of a dilusional, fleshly man, caught up in the traditions of man, trying to justify his conclusions with what is completely illogical, rather than God's Word.

(treeoflife;54440)
According to Watt, since a person (such as myself and indeed, most believers) understand from God's Word that saints past do not need to be, and indeed should not be prayed to...
You are wrong. Most believers do not believe that saints past should not be prayed to.The numbers of Catholic and Orthodox in the world total about 1839 million, whilst Protestants number about 692 million. Anglicans are about 77 million but I don't know quite what they believe - and I think they don't either!So on the numbers game you are outnumbered about 3:1 Figures from Wikipedia which I am not a fan of, but they can't be far out. However that's off the point of this thread.

(winsome;54444)
You are wrong. Most believers do not believe that saints past should not be prayed to.The numbers of Catholic and Orthodox in the world total about 1839 million, whilst Protestants number about 692 million. Anglicans are about 77 million but I don't know quite what they believe - and I think they don't either!So on the numbers game you are outnumbered about 3:1 Figures from Wikipedia which I am not a fan of, but they can't be far out. However that's off the point of this thread.
I don't trust wiki. I trust God's Word, which tells us what a believer is. Wiki doesn't have it even close, and 3:1 is a joke.Even so, maybe I should say this instead -- "Not including Catholics, most believers do not believe that saints past should be prayed to." There are a lot of Catholics, so still, regardless of what people are doing, we should go to God's Word on the subject to see who we should pray to... and for.BTW, just wanted to let you know I am a saint, in case you were not aware. By God's Word I am a saint, and so is every believer in Christ, saved by Him, washed by His blood.

winsome,You can pray to the tree out front if YOU want it will do you just as much good as praying to a saint or Mary. Instead I suggest praying directly to God the Father in the name of His Son, Jesus. Leave Michael out of it also!

(treeoflife;54455)
I don't trust wiki. I trust God's Word, which tells us what a believer is. Wiki doesn't have it even close, and 3:1 is a joke.Even so, maybe I should say this instead -- "Not including Catholics, most believers do not believe that saints past should be prayed to." There are a lot of Catholics, so still, regardless of what people are doing, we should go to God's Word on the subject to see who we should pray to... and for.BTW, just wanted to let you know I am a saint, in case you were not aware. By God's Word I am a saint, and so is every believer in Christ, saved by Him, washed by His blood.
Yes we are saints - praise God

IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER AND OF THE SON AND OF THE HOLY SPIRITHERE I AM AGAIN TO SHARE THE TRUTH OF GOD LOVE(kriss;54434)
as I Said Before Watt Your Ideas Are The Ones Based In Flesh Not Ours You Confess To A Man Pray To A Women And Self Appoint A Man To Follow Instead Of Christ So Your Flesh Lectures To Us Are Nothing But Hypocrisy.
NOW LOOK...YOUR OWN LANGUAGE YOU DID NOT UNDERSTAND...VERY SORRY TO SAY THAT. GOD CHOOSE THE WORD "PRAY" AND THE MEANING IS "COMMUNICATE WITH GOD WHO IS SPIRIT" NOW LOOK... GOD IS SPIRIT..HE HAVE HIS KINGDOM, HIS KINGDOM IS SPIRIT AND ETERNAL. JESUS SAID :-" TRULY I SAY TO YOU, UNLESS ONE IS BORN AGAIN OF WATER AND SPIRIT HE CANNOT ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD"(JOHN 3:5) AND THIS AUTHORITY WAS GIVEN TO THE HIS DISCIPLE (MATTHEW 28:18-20)WHO SOEVER FULFILL "THE WORD OF GOD" AS MENTIONED ABOVE WILL ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD.THIS IS THE SPIRITUAL ROOT OF WHAT ALL THE APOSTLE PROCLAIM. WORKS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT)JESUS VERY CLEARLY TOLD US:-"IT IS THE SPIRIT THAT GIVE LIFE, THE FLESH CANNOT HELP. THE WORDS THAT I HAVE SPOKEN TO YOU ARE SPIRIT AND THEY ARE LIFE." (JOHN 6:63)HERE... WE CANNOT COMMUNICATE OR PRAY TO GOD WITH FLESH..AND WE WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND THE BIBLE WITH FLESH...WHY?? BECAUSE THE BIBLE WAS WRITEN BY THOSE INSPIRED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT...That Why We Must Fulfill All "the Word Of God" Then Only We Will Receive The Holys Spirit Who Will Lead Us To Enter The Kingdom Of God And We Will Know What Is Inside The Kingdom Of God... And We Will Sharing The Glory Of Our Lord Jesus Christ And Together With The Entire Citizen Of Heaven As God Family... And Here There Is No Death, No Pain....but Loving Kindness, Happiness, Joyful.praising God Every Second....for God Is With Us.Now The Kingdom Of God Is Here ....on Earth,among Us.Hence Search For The Kingdom Of God. Not Seach For The Eartly Things.MAY GOD FORGIVE ALL OUR SIN.AMENFROM WATT

I agree that the kingdom is spiritual. That we can not see or understand spiritual things with our fleshly mind. Spiritual growth is a process, we are to work out our own salvation, everyones journey is different. We are not born today and understand all spiritual things. As we grow we learn more. We should not judge others because they are not where we are. As far as John 3:5 Being born of water is speaking of being born in the womb. John 3:6 explains this when he says that which is born of the flesh(water) is flesh. That which is born of Spirit(Spiritual) is spirit.These are the two births mentioned and explained.

IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER AND OF THE SON AND OF THE HOLY SPIRITHERE I AM AGAIN TO SHARE THE TRUTH OF GOD LOVE(setfree;54524)
As far as John 3:5 Being born of water is speaking of being born in the womb. John 3:6 explains this when he says that which is born of the flesh(water) is flesh. That which is born of Spirit(Spiritual) is spirit.These are the two births mentioned and explained.
Nicodemus was a religious person, concerned about knowing GOD and HIS ways and He went to JESUS as to a teacher of religion. However, what he needed was not so much to receive instruction as to undergo a change within Himself.... that too , is what we need. We must recognize our powerless - by our selves, unaided - to pass through the barriers which block us from an authentic life.JESUS says we MUST BE BORN AGAIN FROM ABOVE..... Nobody gives birth to himself, and just as we received our life in flesh from others so, too, we received the life of THE SON OF GOD from SPIRIT(HOLY SPIRIT).All say they live: something moves in them, thought come to them, and they make decisions...yet this might be nothing more than the life of flesh, or the life of an unawakened person.The other life , that of THE SPIRIT(HOLY SPIRIT), is more mysterious because it takes place in the innermost depths of our being.we see the external appearance: we notice a person's face and behavior but we do not see GOD'S working in him. However, the awakened believer who is habitually led by THE SPIRIT gradually discovers changes in what motivates his action and his ambitions. He feels at ease with GOD and without fear.He experinces that it is not so much he himself who orients his life, as another who lives in Him. Yet he would not, in fact, be able to say exactly what happens within him.Hence JESUS compares the action OF THE SPIRIT with the passing of wind which we feel, although we do not see or hold it.LET US TAKE NOTED THAT IN JESUS LANGUAGE THE WORD " BREATH" MEANS "SPIRIT" AS MUCH AS "WIND"ONLY WHEN WE ARE BAPTIZE WITH WATER...THEN ONLY WILL RECEIVE THE SPIRIT. JESUS HAVE GIVEN US THE GOOD EXAMPLE TO FOLLOW.. IN THE RIVER JORDAN.AND JESUS HAVE GIVEN THIS AUTHORITY IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH TO HIS DISCIPLE'S (MATTHEW 28 : 18-20)AS HE SAID:-"GO, THEREFORE , AND MAKE DISCIPLE FROM ALL NATIONS. BAPTIZE THEM IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER AND OF T5HE SON AND OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, AND TEACH THEM TO FULFILL ALL THAT I HAVE COMMANDED YOU, I AM WITH YOU ALWAYS UNTILL THE END OF THIS WORLD."WHAT WAS HAPPEN DURING THE PENTECOST.. THEY RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT...THAT WILL EXACTLY HAPPEN TO ALL THOSE WHO FULFILL ALL THAT JESUS COMMANDED.MAY GOD BLESSAMENFROM WATT