The Elect?

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VictoryinJesus

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Is it really obvious? It means those who are not 'in Christ' are not saved and are not going to heaven even though all sins have been paid for. Is that obvious to you also?

I don't see how your questions apply.

Stranger

If the elect are in Christ? Who are in Adam?
 

SovereignGrace

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No, you're not paying attention. Though all their sins are paid for, they remain 'in Adam'. They must be 'in Christ' to be saved and go to Heaven.

Stranger
Propitiation means God’s wrath has been appeased, satisfied, satiated. When the Christ paid the sin debt, it satisfied the Father. So, the payment made by the Christ took away the Father’s wrath. Now, if the Christ paid the debt for every sin of every lost person, there is no longer any wrath from God.

So which is it?

A double payment of sin, as the Christ paid for them of those who died lost and they also pay for them, making the Christ’s payment null and void?

God pours out His wrath upon those whose sins have been paid for, and even though His wrath was appeased, seeing the Christ propitiated the Father for their sins?

Everyone whoever lived goes to heaven, seeing their sins were paid for by the Christ?

The Christ’s payment wasn’t sufficient enough, but they also had to do something, making the cross of none effect because they didn’t do that something, making the cross + their something they did that saved them?



The ball is in your court...
 
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Stranger

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Why are the elect ‘in Christ’ elected?

Somethings are known only to God. And He doesn't tell us the 'why' of all things.

I would consider this: the elect and non-elect represent those who are of God and those not of God. We all are products of the two seeds now in play since the fall of man. The seed of God, and the seed of satan. (Gen. 3:15)

Thus you have Cain born of that wicked one. (1 John 3:12) Or you have believers born from above. (John 3:3)

Stranger
 
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Stranger

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Propitiation means God’s wrath has been appeased, satisfied, satiated. When the Christ paid the sin debt, it satisfied the Father. So, the payment made by the Christ took away the Father’s wrath. Now, if the Christ paid the debt for every sin of every lost person, there is no longer any wrath from God.

So which is it?

A double payment of sin, as the Christ paid for them of those who died lost and they also pay for them, making the Christ’s payment null and void?

God pours out His wrath upon those whose sins have been paid for, and even though His wrath was appeased, seeing the Christ propitiated the Father for their sins?

Everyone whoever lived goes to heaven, seeing their sins were paid for by the Christ?

The Christ’s payment wasn’t sufficient enough, but they also had to do something, making the cross of none effect because they didn’t do that something, making the cross + their something they did that saved them.



The ball is in your court...

Whether you call it a double payment or not, matters not. Christ has paid for all sin. The Father is satisfied with that payment. But that payment is only applied to those 'in Christ'.

That doesn't mean the sins of those in Adam haven't been paid for. They have. They simply refuse and remain in their sins.

Stranger
 

Stranger

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No my friend. Even the elect are in Adam until the very moment they are saved. All mankind, elect and non-elect, are born in Adam. Only the elect are saved and born again in the Christ.

You need to catch up. That is already a given. Of course the elect are in Adam until they are saved. All are in Adam at one point.

Stranger
 

VictoryinJesus

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Somethings are known only to God. And He doesn't tell us the 'why' of all things.

I would consider this: the elect and non-elect represent those who are of God and those not of God. We all are products of the two seeds now in play since the fall of man. The seed of God, and the seed of satan. (Gen. 3:15)

Thus you have Cain born of that wicked one. (1 John 3:12) Or you have believers born from above. (John 3:3)

Stranger

The elect and non-elect.
Born of God or not born of God.
The seed of God or the seed of satan.
Fruit(works of the Spirit) or works of the flesh.
Incorruptible or corruptible.
Yes? No?

Vessels of Mercy: The elect born of a life-giving Spirit with the attributes of their Father. Come to save and give life.

Vessels of destruction: Non-elect, not born of God, of the seed of satan, corruptible works of their father which is lie, steal, cheat, kill and destory life.

One overcomes the other. Life overcomes death.

Which seeds are present here? Which is the vessel of mercy? Which are the vessels of destruction? Luke 23:34-37 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. [35] And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him , saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God. [36] And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar, [37] And saying, If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself.

Which is in Adam? Flesh.
Which is of God? Spirit.
 
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SovereignGrace

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Whether you call it a double payment or not, matters not. Christ has paid for all sin. The Father is satisfied with that payment. But that payment is only applied to those 'in Christ'.

That doesn't mean the sins of those in Adam haven't been paid for. They have. They simply refuse and remain in their sins.

Stranger
Yes it does matter. You’re saying the payment, in of of itself, is not sufficient unless they do something. The payment due was paid on the cross. You are making salvation the cross + something they do. You’re adding to the (finished) work of the cross.
 

Stranger

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The elect and non-elect.
Born of God or not born of God.
The seed of God or the seed of satan.
Fruit(works of the Spirit) or works of the flesh.
Incorruptible or corruptible.
Yes? No?

Vessels of Mercy: The elect born of a life-giving Spirit with the attributes of their Father. Come to save and give life.

Vessels of destruction: Non-elect, not born of God, of the seed of satan, corruptible works of their father which is lie, steal, cheat, kill and destory life.

One overcomes the other.

Which seeds are present here? Which is the vessel of mercy? Which are the vessels of destruction? Luke 23:34-37 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. [35] And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him , saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God. [36] And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar, [37] And saying, If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself.

Which is in Adam? Flesh.
Which is of God? Spirit.

At present, in our sphere of experience all we can know is that these things are true concerning the elect, or non-elect. Or the vessel's of mercy, and vessels of destruction.

The elect at this time will be identified as those who have come to Christ. We cannot know that everyone who has not yet come to Christ is non-elect. Only God knows that. They may reject Christ right now but five years down the road they turn to Him. They were always elect, we just didn't know it until they come to Christ.

Many times the non-elect are 'good people'...as far as man is concerned. That doesn't mean they are elect. Many times the believers are extreme hell raisers before they believe. But that doesn't mean they are not elect.

Stranger
 

Stranger

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Yes it does matter. You’re saying the payment, in of of itself, is not sufficient unless they do something. The payment due was paid on the cross. You are making salvation the cross + something they do. You’re adding to the (finished) work of the cross.

It's God who added 'faith' to the program. Not me.

Stranger
 

VictoryinJesus

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At present, in our sphere of experience all we can know is that these things are true concerning the elect, or non-elect. Or the vessel's of mercy, and vessels of destruction.

The elect at this time will be identified as those who have come to Christ. We cannot know that everyone who has not yet come to Christ is non-elect. Only God knows that. They may reject Christ right now but five years down the road they turn to Him. They were always elect, we just didn't know it until they come to Christ.

Many times the non-elect are 'good people'...as far as man is concerned. That doesn't mean they are elect. Many times the believers are extreme hell raisers before they believe. But that doesn't mean they are not elect.

Stranger

The question of the thread was who are the elect and why are they selected or chosen? You said the elect are those in Christ. The non-elect ...not-chosen remain in Adam...

Not asking who is Matthew 7:20
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

But how is ‘elected’ or ‘chosen’ seen in
Luke 23:34-35 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. [35] And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him , saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.

What is the difference between Christ and Adam?
 

Stranger

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The question of the thread was who are the elect and why are they selected or chosen? You said the elect are those in Christ. The non-elect ...not-chosen remain in Adam...

Not asking who is Matthew 7:20
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

But how is ‘elected’ or ‘chosen’ seen in
Luke 23:34-35 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. [35] And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him , saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.

What is the difference between Christ and Adam?

I'm not sure what exactly you are asking.

Concerning (Luke 23:34-35), that is Christ praying that the Father forgive those who are putting him to death on the Cross. This is for the purpose of the Father not destroying all of them at that moment. It doesn't make a distinction between who is elect or non-elect. It is quite possible that both were involved, and then those who were elect later turned to Christ. And the non-elect did not.

The difference between Christ and Adam is fully explained in (Rom. 5:12-21).

Stranger
 

VictoryinJesus

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I'm not sure what exactly you are asking.

Concerning (Luke 23:34-35), that is Christ praying that the Father forgive those who are putting him to death on the Cross. This is for the purpose of the Father not destroying all of them at that moment. It doesn't make a distinction between who is elect or non-elect. It is quite possible that both were involved, and then those who were elect later turned to Christ. And the non-elect did not.

The difference between Christ and Adam is fully explained in (Rom. 5:12-21).

Stranger

Wasn’t asking who are or can be the elect. Understand what you mean as seen in Saul. We don’t know but the attributes of the Father are seen yeah? Acts 7:57-60 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord(in agreement against-anti), [58] And cast him out of the city, and stoned him : and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. [59] And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God , and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. [60] And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Romans 5:14-15
[14] Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. [15] But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

From one death passed onto all ...
from one life passed and swallowed up death in victory.

Luke 9:54-56
[54] And when his disciples James and John saw this , they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? [55] But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. [56] For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them . And they went to another village.

“You know not what manner of spirit you are of?” Which spirit is the elect of? Flesh or Spirit? You said that Him chosen of God and what He (the Son) displayed of the Father has noting to do with the elect or chosen but it has everything to do with it. Elected and in Christ. Or non-elected and remain in Adam. Those elected as Paul was are to pull (snatch) those from out of Adam hating even the garment spotted by flesh.
 

Mjh29

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Being out of Christ means you are in Adam and so in your sins. So, as I said, they remain in their sins and pay the penalty.

All sins have been paid for, in Christ. Not in Adam.

Stranger

But is it a sin to be 'in Adam'? Is this in and of itself a sin? You can repeat that over and over, but is it a sin to be 'in Adam' and not 'in Christ'?
All sins have been paid, so if it IS a sin then it was paid for, and if it is NOT a sin then there is no penalty. Either way, the ends to your theological stance is all men are in heaven. God only punishes sin. And you claim He paid for all sins of all men.