If's...

APAK · Mar 17, 2019

Nancy said:
Hi Apak,
I consider myself a bond-servant/slave to Christ because He called me, and I gladly serve Him. He did not force me into anything and, I do not believe He ever would. He loved me first, He died in my place, He blesses me and keeps me. I could walk away if I so chose but, I choose life so...He IS the ONLY true Life...where else would I ever want to be but under His direction? I hardly know all truth where this is concerned yet, I cannot stop believing what I have come to believe. They have changed over the years and I am sure they will again as I grow. Also, how do you equate free will with pride? And, why would a good God have to force people to love Him?
Just my thoughts ♥

Nancy, I see you have equated compelled or strongly encouraged if you will, with force or being forced by God. Unfortunate. God does not force anyone to believe because coming to Christ does not work that way. Once the movement of God to a person's heart begins, that is irresistible and overwhelming, the initial carnal decision for Christ is assisted with faith by the spirit of God. God's bias and influence is made in these salvation choice, always. You can call this force, or the use of force by God. I call it being one of the few that are chosen (and privileged) and not of the many that are called by the messengers of God with the gospel that never are saved. Many can make the decision for Christ after being called or hearing the gospel although if not chosen by the spirit or hearing the voice of Christ, they will never be saved.

BL: the carnal mind can never make a decision for Christ ever, no matter how sincere and heartfelt and how many times, without the intervention of the spirit of God first, to sway it. God (his spirit and mind) MUST choose a human spirit for love and companionship as he knows all hearts before they are born. The carnal mind of a human being is not capable of saving itself with its own corrupt 'free' will by works of its own....

Bless you,

APAK

Nancy · Mar 17, 2019

APAK said:
Nancy, I see you have equated compelled or strongly encouraged if you will, with force or being forced by God. Unfortunate. God does not force anyone to believe because coming to Christ does not work that way. Once the movement of God to a person's heart begins, that is irresistible and overwhelming, the initial carnal decision for Christ is assisted with faith by the spirit of God. God's bias and influence is made in these salvation choice, always. You can call this force, or the use of force by God. I call it being one of the few that are chosen (and privileged) and not of the many that are called by the messengers of God with the gospel that never are saved. Many can make the decision for Christ after being called or hearing the gospel although if not chosen by the spirit or hearing the voice of Christ, they will never be saved.

BL: the carnal mind can never make a decision for Christ ever, no matter how sincere and heartfelt and how many times, without the intervention of the spirit of God first, to sway it. God (his spirit and mind) MUST choose a human spirit for love and companionship as he knows all hearts before they are born. The carnal mind of a human being is not capable of saving itself with its own corrupt 'free' will by works of its own....

Bless you,

APAK

So, does the word "choose" not really mean choose? Like, all and world doesn't really mean all and world? It seems God gives us all kinds of choices. I "chose" ha! a very few scriptures below and can only see how we can choose. What do we do with all of these scriptures?

"See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in his ways…then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess. But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed…I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live…" Duet 30:15-19.

"Choose this day whom you will serve."
"Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own." John 7:17

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve Jehovah, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve Jehovah." Joshua 24:15

"Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, says the Lord GOD, and not rather that they should turn from their ways and live?… Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed against me, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, says the Lord GOD. Turn, then, and live. (Ezek. 18:5,9, 20, 23, 31-32)."

"14 He did evil because he had not set his heart on seeking the Lord." 2 Chron. 12:14

APAK · Mar 17, 2019

@Nancy..need to hit the hay...I can pick this up next time...just one comment though....How does one choose or use one's will to know the will of God as I see you have written down John 7:17? It cannot be done by ourselves....until next time. Jesus is taunting these unbelievers with his words. Not the first time he did this... Their hearts are 'far away' from God and besides, God had not chosen them to know his will, let alone them wanting to know it.....

Nancy, I will promise to speak again on this if you want next time...nite..Bless you..APAK

Nancy · Mar 17, 2019

APAK said:
@Nancy..need to hit the hay...I can pick this up next time...just one comment though....How does one choose or use one's will to know the will of God as I see you have written down John 7:17? It cannot be done by ourselves....until next time. Jesus is taunting these unbelievers with his words. Not the first time he did this... Their hearts are 'far away' from God and besides, God had not chosen them to know his will, let alone them wanting to know it.....

Nancy, I will promise to speak again on this if you want next time...nite..Bless you..APAK

Good morning, I hope you slept sound!

If one obeys God, I think it brings understanding. And, we know what happens when we disobey, never anything good just chaos! God IS the only being with perfect common sense, haha. His plans never fail ♥

In John 16:18, Jesus said He would send The Holy Spirit to convict the world of sin, judgement and righteousness. That tells me that God GAVE us the gift of His Spirit to guide us into all truth. His truth is in His word for all to see and read. I read, and I believed what I read. He has never left my side although, I walked away from Him for many (unhappy and sin laden unfulfilled) years. But, He was still there through it all and I did not see Him until...I did! Did the Spirit convict me of my sin? You can bet He did, and still does. I see The Spirit as seeking those who agree with God that they are sinners and lost completely without Him. God IS a rewarder to those who diligently seek Him (para). And I believe He has all kinds of pearls and hidden wisdom in His Word.

Yes, Jesus was taunting the Pharisees. That is because they did not agree with God that they were sinners, hypocrites, their hearts far from God, puffed up. In their hearts/minds, they were just and worthy. Ha! So I can see why God hardened their hearts (like Pharoah) and spoke in parables they could not understand; as God, of course, knew they were never going to accept His only begotten as their Messiah. It also occurs to me that God allowed these stiff-necked people to be in positions of power and wealth to use them in His plan. To maybe contrast His Gospel message with the yeast of the Pharisees? Just a thought.
I do not mind discussing this with you Apak but, if this turns into another "predestination" kind of thing...I will have to pass

God Bless you and yours!
nancy

APAK · Mar 18, 2019

@Nancy, just had a brisk walk..in the 60s here in FL..

Predestination put aside although actually true, I would focus on the experience you shared with me.
How did you know that the spirit of God was still there when you walked away from God, as you said? Do you think it was you, yourself that knew this by your mind, intellect emotions etc first? Did the spirit of God tug at you or somehow tell you 'I'm still here for you?" So you knew the spirit was there when you sinned? Was it out of self-guilt? Was it the spirit speaking to your heart to repent?

What I'm trying to get at is that the spirit if it is present always initiates the call to your heart/spirit. Our heart/spirit does not perceive the spirit of God without its presence being known and influencing us first. It is a mysterious connection that we cannot understand. Our mind does not understand it. When one chooses anything on a spiritual level it is not you making any choice or perceiving the higher things that only belongs to God. This is another way I'm trying to convey to you that you really do not have so-called free will when it comes to SPIRITUAL things of God. You can have all the free-will of the carnal mind to do anything you want, although these are not true matters of the heart and spirit where God resides in you.

The spirit of God does not search for those that agree with him, that they are aware they are sinners, as if we are on equal footing. Even atheists believe they sin or at least hurt others or themselves from time to time and they know it is wrong. Although they do not acknowledge that the/a spirit of God is in the world to convict everyone that lives.

We can acknowledge that we are sinners all day long and even with tears. Allow God to take hold of you first without trying to run the show. Acceptance does not come from us by our own beliefs, in our own time, SEPARATE from the real influence of the spirit in our heart .. it is from God....it is our cooperation with God -never alone...

If God resides in you it is because of his action and because he gave you saving faith that YOU or I cannot do' have in/for ourselves with our carnal faith and minds that are human works of vanity that is worthless. It is not yours or my decision alone. He is the captain of your heart.....I don't know how to express it any further at this point.

Bless you,

APAK

Frank Lee · Mar 18, 2019

God invented IF'S. We have ifs throughout our day, our life, our home, our place of work. Everywhere.

If is a condition. We raise our children with conditions. They are presented with a set of conditions and if they are obedient they receive the blessing. If not then either a punishment or missing the rewards.

"If my people who are called by my name ..." comes to mind. We KNOW that God's promises are conditional and we must follow the conditions. Thank God our salvation is not based on perfect behavior. This was the law. If we were perfect our sin would be put off for another year, not forgiven. As born again Christians we have an advocate with the father. 1John 1:9.

1 John 1:9 KJVS
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Even after salvation we have conditions placed upon us. If and only if.

We understand these and know we must submit ourselves to them.

Not a single thing in life is not conditional. Men set conditional ordinances which may or may not be righteous. God sets his WHAT IFS in perfect righteousness.

Only three verses from the very end of the Bible book of revelations we find its last if.

Revelation 22:19 KJVS
AND IF any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

The heavenly father made the contract, nay the covenant. The entire gospel is based on whether we meet his conditions.

Acts 8:37 KJVS
And Philip said, IF thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Nancy · Mar 19, 2019

APAK said:
@Nancy, just had a brisk walk..in the 60s here in FL..

Predestination put aside although actually true, I would focus on the experience you shared with me.
How did you know that the spirit of God was still there when you walked away from God, as you said? Do you think it was you, yourself that knew this by your mind, intellect emotions etc first? Did the spirit of God tug at you or somehow tell you 'I'm still here for you?" So you knew the spirit was there when you sinned? Was it out of self-guilt? Was it the spirit speaking to your heart to repent?

What I'm trying to get at is that the spirit if it is present always initiates the call to your heart/spirit. Our heart/spirit does not perceive the spirit of God without its presence being known and influencing us first. It is a mysterious connection that we cannot understand. Our mind does not understand it. When one chooses anything on a spiritual level it is not you making any choice or perceiving the higher things that only belongs to God. This is another way I'm trying to convey to you that you really do not have so-called free will when it comes to SPIRITUAL things of God. You can have all the free-will of the carnal mind to do anything you want, although these are not true matters of the heart and spirit where God resides in you.

The spirit of God does not search for those that agree with him, that they are aware they are sinners, as if we are on equal footing. Even atheists believe they sin or at least hurt others or themselves from time to time and they know it is wrong. Although they do not acknowledge that the/a spirit of God is in the world to convict everyone that lives.

We can acknowledge that we are sinners all day long and even with tears. Allow God to take hold of you first without trying to run the show. Acceptance does not come from us by our own beliefs, in our own time, SEPARATE from the real influence of the spirit in our heart .. it is from God....it is our cooperation with God -never alone...

If God resides in you it is because of his action and because he gave you saving faith that YOU or I cannot do' have in/for ourselves with our carnal faith and minds that are human works of vanity that is worthless. It is not yours or my decision alone. He is the captain of your heart.....I don't know how to express it any further at this point.

Bless you,

APAK

"Predestination put aside although actually true, I would focus on the experience you shared with me.
How did you know that the spirit of God was still there when you walked away from God, as you said? Do you think it was you, yourself that knew this by your mind, intellect emotions etc first? Did the spirit of God tug at you or somehow tell you 'I'm still here for you?" So you knew the spirit was there when you sinned? Was it out of self-guilt? Was it the spirit speaking to your heart to repent?"

Simple answer is, yes, the Spirit did not stop speaking to my heart of repentance. I also do not believe I was actually saved back then, more like a pew warmer...I was not ready to submit my all to Him...like, I would think, why would He want ANYTHING to do with me anyhow, I had nothing at all special about me but I knew I was living in sin, and I wasn't even enjoying it! Ha! He knew I would come back with head low, and with TRUE repentance. That is why I believe He never left my side...it was me who left Him.

I believe the Holy Spirit convicts EVERYBODY in this world. I honestly do not want to get into a discussion on predestination PLEASE?! I know what you believe, and have been over and over this doctrine since the 90's. I caused me to believe that I just was not one of the "elect" and, it did not matter that I knew I was lost without Him. I respect your viewpoint yet, I really don't want to get into all of that again.
God Bless You ♥
nancy

APAK · Mar 19, 2019

@Nancy ..peace...I understand that predestination in scripture or how folks preach about it gave you a very bad taste..sorry this subject pushed you away....

.....it's really not an unpleasant subject....

...maybe look at it again when you have more information from the Spirit.

Thanks for sharing your honest comments and history of when you realized you were not of the body Christ in your previous life....most folks don't know if they were or are now with Christ today....takes true courage. Having Christ gives one this edge indeed.

God's way and his time is not ours. He knew your heart before you were born Nancy. He said so...

Your heart when it's especially humble and contrite knows it has the spirit of God for comfort, with the peace that the mind cannot match or replicate. God says that he led you to him and his Son - he thus predestined you to the Son. He already saw it before it happened.

Just telling me the things about you, tells me God is working in your life already.

Bless you,

APAK

Nancy · Mar 19, 2019

APAK said:
@Nancy ..peace...I understand that predestination in scripture or how folks preach about it gave you a very bad taste..sorry this subject pushed you away.........it's really not an unpleasant subject.......maybe look at it again when you have more information from the Spirit.

Thanks for sharing your honest comments and history of when you realized you were not of the body Christ in your previous life....most folks don't know if they were or are now with Christ today....takes true courage. Having Christ gives one this edge indeed.

God's way and his time is not ours. He knew your heart before you were born Nancy. He said so...

Your heart when it's especially humble and contrite knows it has the spirit of God for comfort, with the peace that the mind cannot match or replicate. God says that he led you to him and his Son - he thus predestined you to the Son. He already saw it before it happened.

Just telling me the things about you, tells me God is working in your life already.

Bless you,

APAK

Thank you Apak,
Yes, He did know me before the foundation of the earth ♥ Just like he knows everybody else. As far as predestination, I can only go so far as to say that since God already knew who would love Him, He use's unbelievers for His purposes, since He knows they would be too puffed up, and right in their own minds to accept the glorious gift given us. Just my short 2 cents

Nancy · Mar 29, 2019

Episkopos said:
Salvation is conditional...and remains conditional until we finish our race here on this physical plane. But that doesn't sell well so people just drop the "if's" so as to make certainty appear as coming from the bible.

...the holey bible. (full of holes)

Yes, it is conditional IF we keep the faith and continue running the race He set before us. If one was never truly saved to begin with...pretty much a large majority of them will turn back to the world. And, this is only my own observation in my tiny part of the world

Episkopos · Mar 29, 2019

Nancy said:
Yes, it is conditional IF we keep the faith and continue running the race He set before us. If one was never truly saved to begin with...pretty much a large majority of them will turn back to the world. And, this is only my own observation in my tiny part of the world

There is no one time salvation for all time. That is the gross error perpetrated on the church by agents of the enemy. Christianity is a walk....not just one step.

The bible doesn't say....take a step into the decision of the Spirit. It says WALK in the Spirit....so as to overcome the tendencies of sin in the flesh.

Religion teaches static dogmatic forms based on opinion and self-righteous proclamations. But the faith of Jesus Christ is humble and active...in motion where things are being transformed in an ongoing way.

We will all be judged by our WORKS...not our beliefs. Our beliefs don't matter.

If you are stuck in a ditch and need help do you ask the beliefs of a person before they give you help? There is NO parable that comes anywhere near providing an example where a person needs a certain set of beliefs for righteousness. It is an invention of Pharisees and hypocrites to teach otherwise.

Nancy · Mar 29, 2019

Episkopos said:
There is no one time salvation for all time. That is the gross error perpetrated on the church by agents of the enemy. Christianity is a walk....not just one step.

The bible doesn't say....take a step into the decision of the Spirit. It says WALK in the Spirit....so as to overcome the tendencies of sin in the flesh.

Religion teaches static dogmatic forms based on opinion and self-righteous proclamations. But the faith of Jesus Christ is humble and active...in motion where things are being transformed in an ongoing way.

We will all be judged by our WORKS...not our beliefs. Our beliefs don't matter.

If you are stuck in a ditch and need help do you ask the beliefs of a person before they give you help? There is NO parable that comes anywhere near providing an example where a person needs a certain set of beliefs for righteousness. It is an invention of Pharisees and hypocrites to teach otherwise.

Yes, agreed.

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