The Issue of Calvinism.

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justbyfaith

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Certain things in Calvinism appear to me to be biblical.

Here are a few scriptures that seem to me to support the doctrine:

Rom 8:30, Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Rom 9:11, (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Rom 9:15, For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16, So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17, For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18, Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.




Rom 9:30, What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Rom 11:5, Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6, And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Rom 11:7, What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

How do these scriptures coincide with the fact of other scriptures?; for example:

Rom 10:9, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10, For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11, For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12, For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13, For
whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


Jhn 6:37, All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Rom 5:1, Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2, By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.


Eph 2:8, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9, Not of works, lest any man should boast.


We have a tendency to recoil against the Calvinistic concept that God would actually arbitrarily harden someone's heart and/or blind them so that they cannot come to the place of being saved; or the concept in the first verses that God only calls those whom He has predestined.

I would make it an issue, even in believing such Calvinistic verses, that if a man is going to be saved, he must be born again; and that the only way to be born again is through faith in Jesus Christ and what was done for us on the Cross by Him.

There is also the problem of the fact that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. So then, why would He harden and/or blind a person so that they cannot come to the place of being saved?

These are difficult concepts to grasp; but I have never been one to run from a theological challenge. If we put our heads together perhaps we can come up with a solution.

One solution I will not accept is the concept of a God who is not absolute love; or that when God says "any" in 2 Peter 3:9 He is referring to an all that includes only people groups rather than all actually meaning all. That God doesn't want any to perish means that if anyone does perish, it is not according to the Lord's perfect and pleasing will.

Free will is a concept that I hold to be self-evident.

Love never fails (1 Corinthians 13:8). If this translates into Irresistible Grace, then there are only two options: 1) Universalism and 2) Limited Atonement.

1) Universalism is not valid because of such verses as Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50, and Matthew 25:46. But if Irresistible Grace is the reality, then it would have to be the case because God is not willing that any should perish; therefore if God desires everyone to be saved, how can anyone not be saved?

2) Limited Atonement is not the reality because of what I just mentioned: God is not willing that any should perish and Jesus also gave Himself a ransom for all (not many) according to 1 Timothy 2:6; He died for the sins of the whole world (all men) according to 1 John 2:2 and 1 Timothy 4:9-10. Yet people do go to hell and therefore Universalism isn't valid.

If there is any solution to this dilemna other than the concept of free will I am all ears.

The solution that my wife and I came up with was that God's love and Omnipotence cannot fail to give every man a choice when it comes to salvation.

Nevertheless God only calls those whom He has predestined (Romans 8:30). And He also arbitrarily blinds and hardens certain people so that they cannot be saved (Romans 9:18, Romans 11:7 (kjv)).

I am in the business of reconciling Bible contradictions. But this one frankly is over my head; so I am recruiting others to help find a solution.
 
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justbyfaith

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Y A W N .....and....how many threads do we need?
The ones we already have are not enough?

Bless you! ... H
In this thread I basically wanted to take the main points on both sides and put them together so we can come to a better conclusion as to how they come together in harmony, if we can find that in these verses.

A synopsis of what was said in the other threads so that we can continue forward with a fresh perspective.
 
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Dave L

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In this thread I basically wanted to take the main points on both sides and put them together so we can come to a better conclusion as to how they come together in harmony, if we can find that in these verses.

A synopsis of what was said in the other threads so that we can continue forward with a fresh perspective.
One of the big problems people have is "reading into a passage things that it does not say". Whosoever believes will be saved means you can identify saved people by their faith. It is not a condition they "choose" to meet in the flesh in order to save themselves. Romans 8 says if you confess Jesus and believe in your heart ... you will be saved, is not a ritual for people to use to save themselves. It is a characteristic of what saved people to do.
 
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Lady Crosstalk

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There is also the problem of the fact that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. So then, why would he harden and/or blind a person so that they cannot come to the place of being saved?
One of the first rules of Bible interpretation is to whom is it addressed and what person or people group is being discussed. Paul tells us that the majority of the Jews, in his day, had been hardened against the gospel--did He do that or merely turn His back on them and refuse to soften their hearts? Stephen named them as a "stiff-necked" people--in other words, hardened toward the things of God, even though they took great pride in being the "children of Abraham".

When they were suffering in bondage in Egypt, they were being punished, as a people group, for disregarding God's rules for them. But God knew each and every individual and treated them as individuals, as well as part of a group. We know that Moses and Abraham are saved, yet they lived among the heathen and the "heathen-hearted" who were frequently punished throughout the OT. Elijah was saved even though he questioned whether anyone among God's Chosen were worthy of being saved. God knew though that there was a contingent who did not "bend the knee to Baal". It is important to remember that God deals with us corporately as well as individually. Only God knows the end from the beginning.

These are difficult concepts to grasp; but I have never been one to run from a theological challenge. If we put our heads together perhaps we can come up with a solution.
Yes.

One solution I will not accept is the concept of a God who is not absolute love; or that when God says "any" in 2 Peter 3:9 He is referring to an all that includes only people groups rather than all actually meaning all. That God doesn't want any to perish means that if anyone does perish, it is not according to the Lord's perfect and pleasing will. Free will is a concept that I hold to be self-evident.
The Calvinists solve some of these problems by just announcing that there is no free will and they have their pet "proof texts" to support that contention. Yet there are other spots in Scripture (including from the Lord Jesus Himself) that indicate the certainty of free will. Jesus said in Matthew 23:37: "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling." What we have come up against is the intersection (dare we even say the "crossroad"?) of God's sovereignty and the free will of man. Theologians have been arguing about this one for a long time. But, let's put our heads together anyway.;)
 
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farouk

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One of the first rules of Bible interpretation is to whom is it addressed and what person or people group is being discussed. Paul tells us that the majority of the Jews, in his day, had been hardened against the gospel--did He do that or merely turn His back on them and refuse to soften their hearts? Stephen named them as a "stiff-necked" people--in other words, hardened toward the things of God, even though they took great pride in being the "children of Abraham".

When they were suffering in bondage in Egypt, they were being punished, as a people group, for disregarding God's rules for them. But God knew each and every individual and treated them as individuals as well as part of a group. We know that Moses and Abraham are saved, yet they lived among the heathen and the "heathen-hearted" who were frequently punished throughout the OT. Elijah was saved even though he questioned whether anyone among God's Chosen were worthy of being saved. God knew though that there was a contingent who did not "bend the knee to Baal". It is important to remember that God deals with us corporately as well as individually. Only God knows the end from the beginning.

Yes.

The Calvinists solve some of these problems by just announcing that there is no free will and they have their pet "proof texts" to support that contention. Yet there are other spots in Scripture (including from the Lord Jesus Himself) that indicate the certainty of free will. Jesus said in Matthew 23:37: "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling." What we have come up against is the intersection of God's sovereignty and the free will of man. Theologians have been arguing about this one for a long time. But, let's put our heads together anyway.;)
[/QUOTE]
I agree that interpretation and context are so important.

Although I don't myself have a problem with Calvinism as a body of Scripture doctrine.
 

Enoch111

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In this thread I basically wanted to take the main points on both sides and put them together so we can come to a better conclusion as to how they come together in harmony, if we can find that in these verses.
You cannot harmonize the Five Points of Calvinism with true Bible doctrine. Those are all MAN-MADE ideas.
 
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justbyfaith

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You cannot harmonize the Five Points of Calvinism with true Bible doctrine. Those are all MAN-MADE ideas.
Read the OP, because it contains certain quotes of scripture that support concepts that we find in Calvinistic theology.
 

Mjh29

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Also the other thread was getting to be too long.

I actually would love to have a thread where we look at the Scriptures and see what they say. I am not concerned with proving that I am right; it really doesn't mean all that much to me. What I am concerned with is taking Scripture as a whole and in its context. If we can do that, I think we could actually have a meaningful discussion. Doesn't mean we have to all agree, but I think we can all agree that our chief concern should be the proper handling of the Word of God.
 

Preacher4Truth

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I'm sorry, but it would be insanity to think any of these anti-Calvinist's, even after starting yet another thread, are actually going to listen to contextually interpreted Scripture, not take Scripture out of context text to "prove" their beliefs, and not offer up false accusations and false assertions.

It's just one more thread to offer up all the same false things stated while dodging, bobbing and weaving what we offer as biblical evidence.
 
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Waiting on him

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Certain things in Calvinism appear to me to be biblical.

Here are a few scriptures that seem to me to support the doctrine:

Rom 8:30, Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Rom 9:11, (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Rom 9:15, For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16, So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17, For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18, Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.




Rom 9:30, What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Rom 11:5, Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6, And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Rom 11:7, What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

How do these scriptures coincide with the fact of other scriptures?; for example:

Rom 10:9, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10, For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11, For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12, For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13, For
whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


Jhn 6:37, All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Rom 5:1, Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2, By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.


Eph 2:8, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9, Not of works, lest any man should boast.


We have a tendency to recoil against the Calvinistic concept that God would actually arbitrarily harden someone's heart and/or blind them so that they cannot come to the place of being saved; or the concept in the first verses that God only calls those whom He has predestined.

I would make it an issue, even in believing such Calvinistic verses, that if a man is going to be saved, he must be born again; and that the only way to be born again is through faith in Jesus Christ and what was done for us on the Cross by Him.

There is also the problem of the fact that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. So then, why would he harden and/or blind a person so that they cannot come to the place of being saved?

These are difficult concepts to grasp; but I have never been one to run from a theological challenge. If we put our heads together perhaps we can come up with a solution.

One solution I will not accept is the concept of a God who is not absolute love; or that when God says "any" in 2 Peter 3:9 He is referring to an all that includes only people groups rather than all actually meaning all. That God doesn't want any to perish means that if anyone does perish, it is not according to the Lord's perfect and pleasing will.

Free will is a concept that I hold to be self-evident.

Love never fails (1 Corinthians 13:8). If this translates into Irresistible Grace, then there are only two options: 1) Universalism and 2) Limited Atonement.

1) Universalism is not valid because of such verses as Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50, and Matthew 25:46. But if Irresistible Grace is the reality, then it would have to be the case because God is not willing that any should perish; therefore if God desires everyone to be saved, how can anyone not be saved?

2) Limited Atonement is not the reality because of what I just mentioned: God is not willing that any should perish and Jesus also gave Himself a ransom for all (not many) according to 1 Timothy 2:6; He died for the sins of the whole world (all men) according to 1 John 2:2 and 1 Timothy 4:9-10. Yet people do go to hell and therefore Universalism isn't valid.

If there is any solution to this dilemna other than the concept of free will I am all ears.

The solution that my wife and I came up with was that God's love and Omnipotence cannot fail to give every man a choice when it comes to salvation.

Nevertheless God only calls those whom He has predestined (Romans 8:30). And He also arbitrarily blinds and hardens certain people so that they cannot be saved (Romans 9:18, Romans 11:7 (kjv)).

I am in the business of reconciling Bible contradictions. But this one frankly is over my head; so I am recruiting others to help find a solution.

1 Corinthians 12:3 KJV
[3] Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Tecarta BibleAn amazing verse. No man can confess him as Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
 
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Helen

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In this thread I basically wanted to take the main points on both sides and put them together so we can come to a better conclusion as to how they come together in harmony, if we can find that in these verses.

A synopsis of what was said in the other threads so that we can continue forward with a fresh perspective.

Best of luck my friend....I expect no one can do that with any maturity...the threads just degenerate ....but I do hope I am wrong!!! I'd like to see a good FRIENDLY discussion on SOMETHING..., anything! :D
 

VictoryinJesus

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Certain things in Calvinism appear to me to be biblical.

Here are a few scriptures that seem to me to support the doctrine:

Rom 8:30, Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Rom 9:11, (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Rom 9:15, For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16, So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17, For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18, Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.




Rom 9:30, What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Rom 11:5, Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6, And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Rom 11:7, What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

How do these scriptures coincide with the fact of other scriptures?; for example:

Rom 10:9, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10, For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11, For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12, For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13, For
whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


Jhn 6:37, All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Rom 5:1, Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2, By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.


Eph 2:8, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9, Not of works, lest any man should boast.


We have a tendency to recoil against the Calvinistic concept that God would actually arbitrarily harden someone's heart and/or blind them so that they cannot come to the place of being saved; or the concept in the first verses that God only calls those whom He has predestined.

I would make it an issue, even in believing such Calvinistic verses, that if a man is going to be saved, he must be born again; and that the only way to be born again is through faith in Jesus Christ and what was done for us on the Cross by Him.

There is also the problem of the fact that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. So then, why would he harden and/or blind a person so that they cannot come to the place of being saved?

These are difficult concepts to grasp; but I have never been one to run from a theological challenge. If we put our heads together perhaps we can come up with a solution.

One solution I will not accept is the concept of a God who is not absolute love; or that when God says "any" in 2 Peter 3:9 He is referring to an all that includes only people groups rather than all actually meaning all. That God doesn't want any to perish means that if anyone does perish, it is not according to the Lord's perfect and pleasing will.

Free will is a concept that I hold to be self-evident.

Love never fails (1 Corinthians 13:8). If this translates into Irresistible Grace, then there are only two options: 1) Universalism and 2) Limited Atonement.

1) Universalism is not valid because of such verses as Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50, and Matthew 25:46. But if Irresistible Grace is the reality, then it would have to be the case because God is not willing that any should perish; therefore if God desires everyone to be saved, how can anyone not be saved?

2) Limited Atonement is not the reality because of what I just mentioned: God is not willing that any should perish and Jesus also gave Himself a ransom for all (not many) according to 1 Timothy 2:6; He died for the sins of the whole world (all men) according to 1 John 2:2 and 1 Timothy 4:9-10. Yet people do go to hell and therefore Universalism isn't valid.

If there is any solution to this dilemna other than the concept of free will I am all ears.

The solution that my wife and I came up with was that God's love and Omnipotence cannot fail to give every man a choice when it comes to salvation.

Nevertheless God only calls those whom He has predestined (Romans 8:30). And He also arbitrarily blinds and hardens certain people so that they cannot be saved (Romans 9:18, Romans 11:7 (kjv)).

I am in the business of reconciling Bible contradictions. But this one frankly is over my head; so I am recruiting others to help find a solution.

Did Jesus Christ give Himself as a ransom for Adam?
 

justbyfaith

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I actually would love to have a thread where we look at the Scriptures and see what they say. I am not concerned with proving that I am right; it really doesn't mean all that much to me. What I am concerned with is taking Scripture as a whole and in its context. If we can do that, I think we could actually have a meaningful discussion. Doesn't mean we have to all agree, but I think we can all agree that our chief concern should be the proper handling of the Word of God.
I would suggest quoting the scriptures that support your pov and then giving their sense as you see it.

I think that we disagree on Romans 5:2, so there is no sense rehashing that...

But if you have any scriptures that you think I am unaware of that support your view, by all means quote them and tell us how they support your view.

I tried to give a balanced perspective in the OP...I actually saw that some of the verses in my reading supported what the lot of you were saying...However this does not remove my objections...it only raises an apparent contradiction in my mind.
 

justbyfaith

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1 Corinthians 12:3 KJV
[3] Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Tecarta BibleAn amazing verse. No man can confess him as Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
How does this apply?
 

Enoch111

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Read the OP, because it contains certain quotes of scripture that support concepts that we find in Calvinistic theology.
Not really. Calvinists say predestination is for salvation (eternal life). The Bible says predestination is for the perfection (and glorification) of those who are already justified by grace through faith.

And that all may be justified, if all will repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
 

justbyfaith

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Not really. Calvinists say predestination is for salvation (eternal life). The Bible says predestination is for the perfection (and glorification) of those who are already justified by grace through faith.

And that all may be justified, if all will repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
Actually the order is, predestinated, called, justified, glorified. And therefore being justified (initial salvation) is included as a benefit of predestination.
 

Enoch111

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Actually the order is, predestinated, called, justified, glorified. And therefore being justified (initial salvation) is included as a benefit of predestination.
I know what the order is, but the purpose of predestination is clearly presented in Romans 8:29 and yet perverted by the Calvinists. Study the Westminster Confesssion of Faith.