Baptism is it required?

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Aquila

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Obedience does not give us salvation. Faith in Christ's Word/Work does. It is God's faithfulness TO US that saves us... not our faithfulness to Him. If we have at any time believed, He gives us a promise... the work is done... there is no law to keep (even if we wanted to). No matter of obedience will save us or doom us.I agree, it is sad. However, disobedience to the faith we *should* display in Christ, isn't a matter of salvation. Sin, is sin, is sin. Whether you consider it "walking in disobedience" or sinning once is your own estimation. God squashes it all with the work in Christ.Walking in disobedience, and not displaying the works which precede from faith is sad, yes, I agree. Pending salvation, no, I do not agree. Christ did the work. He has promised to save. He does not break His promises. It is not about our faithfulness to Him, it is His faithfulness to us. And, He WILL GET ALL THE GLORY... no man will.
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Praise the Lord
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It is written,(1 John 2:3-6 KJV)(3) And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (4) He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (5) But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. (6) He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
 

treeoflife

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It is written,(1 John 2:3-6 KJV)(3) And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (4) He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (5) But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. (6) He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
Amen.He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
 

Aquila

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Amen.He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
Meaning even as Jesus walked. In obedience to the Father. Don't be decieved by easy believism. There is a gospel I call, "the gospel of disobedience".
 

Aquila

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A believer might say, "I have faith and have no need of works!" True believers demonstrate their faith by their works. If they don't desire to obey...something is wrong with their experience. Either they don't have true faith or they are tangled up on some easy believism doctrine that justifies disobedience and sin.
 

treeoflife

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Meaning even as Jesus walked. In obedience to the Father. Don't be decieved by easy believism. There is a gospel I call, "the gospel of disobedience".
Don't be decieved by hard believism. We can call it what we want, but I wouldn't teach anyone they should disobey. It just would be e MORE WRONG to teach anyone they can or should keep themselves saved with works (call it obedience if you will). Easy believism... or whatever. It is what it is. So easy that He did all the work and just asked us to believe. How easy is that?
 

Aquila

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Don't be decieved by hard believism. We can call it what we want, but I wouldn't teach anyone they should disobey. It just would be e MORE WRONG to teach anyone they can or should keep themselves saved with works (call it obedience if you will). Easy believism... or whatever. It is what it is. So easy that He did all the work and just asked us to believe. How easy is that?
Jesus didn't teach that. Neither did Peter.
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(John 14:15,21 KJV)(15) If ye love me, keep my commandments. (21) He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. (Acts 5:29 KJV)(29) Then Peter and the {other} apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. If you love the Lord you will obey and be water baptized, because he commanded it and his Apostles taught it. If you don't want him...well...you'll treat his blood like some cheap "get-out-of-Hell-free-card", a license to disobey. Besides, water baptism isn't a "work"...it's an act of faith:(Colossians 2:12 KJV)(12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.It's not by works lest any man should boast. Baptism doesn't earn salvation...nothing can. I'm not saved because I repented of my sins, was water baptized, and filled with the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues...I was saved because it was the grace of God that touched my heart apart from anything I had done. It was this grace, unmerited, that revealed Christ to me, revealed my need of a savior, birthed love and faith in my heart, brought me to my knees in repentance, put a desire in my to be baptized in His name, and then caused me to cry out for the infilling of the Holy Ghost...from start to finish it was by God's grace and faith...God loves us as we are....but he also loves us too much to leave us that way. If one allows the Word of God to direct their steps in all things they will live obediently. And yes...they will be water baptized. If one refuses water baptism...they are in rebellion against Jesus Christ. If they say they believe in Christ but do not desire to obey him...they are liars. If I handed you a check for a million dollars...you'd still have to act on the faith and go to the bank to cash it. And after you went to the bank to cash it...you still didn't earn it. Same with salvation. Christ died to provide eternal life and set the parameters of recieving that eternal life, obedience his gospel. We act on our faith in him by obeying him. And after we have gone down by the riverside and been water baptized in His name....we still didn't earn this great salvation. Anyone who tells you differently is a liar.
 

treeoflife

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God loves us as we are....but he also loves us too much to leave us that way.
Amen. That's why we ought to walk as He walked. Just don't make it a matter of salvation, or you er greatly.
 

Aquila

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Amen. That's why we ought to walk as He walked. Just don't make it a matter of salvation, or you er greatly.
As a preacher, I can't help but ask...what is it you're not willing to give up for the Lord? I don't see it as a matter of salvation...I see it as a guage by which saving faith is measured. Saving faith produces obedience. Saving faith doesn't produce rebellion.If a tree produces apples...it's an apple tree. Or if it produces peaches...it's a peach tree. A saint of God with saving faith produces works of obedience. An unregenerated man (though religious) produces rebellion. You know a tree by its' fruit.
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treeoflife

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As a preacher, I can't help but ask...what is it you're not willing to give up for the Lord?
All I am doing is defending the Gospel of grace. Like Paul, I don't frustrate the Gospel of grace. It is by grace we have been saved. Not by obedience. As a servant of the Lord, I must ask, why does defending the Gospel of Grace cause you to think I would need to give something up? See, you are under the mindset that unless you FORCE PEOPLE to do good works, and command them to obedience (yes, inevibibly dangling their salvation in front of them) they cannot produce good works, from faith. I tell you, no. It is my faith that He alone can save, apart from rebellion and apart from obedience that causes me to produce works of faith.When the law came, 3,000 died Exodus 32:26-28. When grace through faith came, 3,000 were reborn Acts 2:38-41.Grace does more.
 

Aquila

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All I am doing is defending the Gospel of grace. Like Paul, I don't frustrate the Gospel of grace. It is by grace we have been saved. Not by obedience. As a servant of the Lord, I must ask, why does defending the Gospel of Grace cause you to think I would need to give something up? See, you are under the mindset that unless you FORCE PEOPLE to do good works, and command them to obedience (yes, inevibibly dangling their salvation in front of them) they cannot produce good works, from faith. I tell you, no. It is my faith that He alone can save, apart from rebellion and apart from obedience that causes me to produce works of faith.When the law came, 3,000 died Exodus 32:26-28. When grace through faith came, 3,000 were reborn Acts 2:38-41.Grace does more.
I've been a preacher for 12 years. I don't know a single soul that felt "forced" to be water baptized. They did it in loving obedience to the Lord that saved them. Now...in my 12 years of preaching I have delt with difficult, contrary, and rebellious people who didn't want to do what Scripture commands...these always feel "forced" to do this or "forced" to do that. One man felt like I was trying to "force" him to stop sleeping with his girlfriend because he didn't want to give up his fornicating.As a preacher, I tell what the WORD says. I don't coddle or water down the message. If someone has saving faith, they receive what the Word has to say...here's the complete story of Pentecost that you described (remember, I'm a Pentecostal preacher so these are my waters):Acts 2:36-4136Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. 37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. 40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. We have a world dying in sin asking, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" The message hasn't changed. Would you answer them with the same answer Peter gave them? There is only one message, one Gospel. Peter didn't say, "Simply believe!" Peter didn't say, "Raise your right hand and repeat after me!" Peter didn't say, "Take catachism classes and learn the sacrements!" No. Peter gave them a simple 1-2-3 answer. They were to repent of sin. They were to be water baptized in the name of Jesus. And then they were to receive the promised the gift of the Holy Ghost.Then they that GLADLY received his words were water baptized in the name of Christ Jesus (a sign of genuine sincere saving faith here). Also notice that it isn't until they heeded and obeyed the Gospel Peter delivered that we are told that souls were added unto the Church. This was the Gospel as preached in Acts 2 by Peter. We see the same pattern in Acts 8,10,19, and 22. The message never changed! Easy-believism churches have departed from the doctrine as preached by the Apostles. I've never heard a dead man refuse to be buried...likewise I've never heard a repentant saint who's died to sin and self refuse to be buried in the watery grave of baptism. Some folks are "crucified with Christ"...but they refuse to be buried with him! (Romans 6:4) In short their rebellion is as rotten and stinking as an unburied corpse. You have to catch this...it's not so much that baptism saves them or that they've refused an agent of grace (water does nothing). It's the spirit of rebellion in their hearts. If a man sits up in the grave yard and refuses to be buried...he aint dead! LOL Likewise if a person claims to have faith in Christ but refuses to be buried in water baptism...that dude ain't crucified with Christ.
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He needs to repent and get his heart right with God. It's now a heart issue. When his heart's right...he'll want to obey the Lord and won't feel forced at all. Now...I've also seen some march into the water and be water baptized but still be just as rebellious when it comes to sin in their lives. It's about the heart! It's about believing in and loving the Lord who died for you. I've never seen a sincere saint feel "forced" about baptism. If someone voiced feeling "forced" to be water baptized...I'd strongly admonish them not to be...because they haven't surrendered all. They aren't ready.
 

Aquila

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Also "frustrating the gospel of grace" that you speak of is a reference to Galatians. The Galatian church was being plagued by the Judaizers who were demanding circumcision and adherence to Mosaic Law. We are no longer under the Old Covenant, we are under the New Covenant. Water baptism is part of the New Covenant teachings of Christ and the Apostles.
 

Jordan

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Also "frustrating the gospel of grace" that you speak of is a reference to Galatians. The Galatian church was being plagued by the Judaizers who were demanding circumcision and adherence to Mosaic Law. We are no longer under the Old Covenant, we are under the New Covenant. Water baptism is part of the New Covenant teachings of Christ and the Apostles.
Which one serves? Water Baptism (by John the Baptist) or Baptism of the Holy Ghost (By Christ), Ephesians 4:5 says that there is only one baptism...
 

Aquila

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Which one serves? Water Baptism (by John the Baptist) or Baptism of the Holy Ghost (By Christ), Ephesians 4:5 says that there is only one baptism...
Here's the deal...John's baptism was a mikvah. It was a Jewish conversion practice done as part of Judaism. This was only a preparatory practice preparing the masses, it's known as the "baptism of repentance". There's a distinction between John’s Baptism of Repentance and Christian Baptism. In John’s Baptism of Repentance the convert took upon themselves repentance and was still identified with Judaism. However, Christian Baptism identifies the convert with Christ. Notice the name that water baptism was originally performed in:(Acts 2:38-41 KJV)(38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (39) For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. (40) And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. (41) Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.(Acts 8:14-17 KJV)(14) Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: (15) Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (16) (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) (17) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.(Acts 10:44-48 KJV) (44) While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. (45) And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. (46) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, (47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? (48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.(Acts 19:1-6 KJV)(1) And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, (2) He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. (3) And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. (4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. (5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (6) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.Water baptism was originally performed in the singular name of Jesus Christ, thereby identifying the believer with Jesus. This separated and distinguished them from Judaism…including the baptism of John. Notice in Acts 19 the disciples in Ephesus had already been water baptized by John…BUT Paul re-baptizes them in the name of Jesus to identify them with Christ…(Acts 19:1-6 KJV)(1) And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, (2) He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. (3) And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. (4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. (5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (6) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.The baptism of John (John’s Baptism unto Repentance) is very different from Christian Baptism…if they were the same these Ephesian believers would not have needed to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. The two are different. Many don’t realize this and confuse the two thinking baptism is baptism. Wrong. John’s baptism and Christian baptism are very different. Only Christian baptism identifies one with Christ and his death, burial, and resurrection. Now…the Baptism of the Holy Ghost is the spiritual side of baptism. John’s Baptism only baptized the outer man, the physical man. Christian Baptism (the one baptism of Christianity) is composed of both Water and Spirit, baptizing the ENTIRE person (physical nature and spirit nature). Therefore New Testament Christian baptism is complete whereas all other practices were just outward acts. Here’s one major problem with us in Christianity…too many of us have yet to enter into the one baptism completely. Some have only been water baptized, baptizing the physical man…but haven’t received the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Some have received the baptism of the Holy Ghost…but have not obeyed and been water baptized. The water and blood flow together…as seen when Christ’s side was pierced; John puts it this way:1 John 5:8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.What agrees and testifies to our salvation? It is the Spirit (in the Holy Ghost baptism) the water (in water baptism) and the blood (wherewith we are sanctified) that testify to our salvation and part in the New Covenant. Here’s something to consider, water baptism is as important to Christians in the New Covenant as Circumcision was to the Jew in the Old Covenant….Colossians 2:10-12 10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.So we don’t need to be circumcised per the Old Covenant…but we are circumcised with the “circumcision made without hands” when buried with Jesus in water baptism. Paul was essentially arguing that through baptism they were already circumcised… with the “circumcision made without hands”. If you didn’t believe in the significance of water baptism and it’s identification with Christ and as a key part of the New Covenant much like circumcision was for the Jews…you’d not get along well with Paul. LOL You have to take the ENTIRE teaching of Scripture not just a few isolated verses and apply it to a subject or you’ll get the wrong idea. You see many take verses Paul wrote in the Epistles and stand on them…but they fail to realize that each letter wasn’t written to sinners…it was written to an already established church! A church that had already obeyed the gospel; meaning they had believed on the Lord, repented of sin, been water baptized in his name, and received the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Before one can claim any promise of the Epistles…one has to obey the very same Gospel as the churches to whom the Epistles were written! Praise God! I feel the Holy Ghost. LOL Paul wrote:1 Corinthians 4:16Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.1 Corinthians 11:1Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.When I was in college I was always told, “When you hear something twice in a lecture or from a professor…it’s going to be on the test.” LOL Twice Paul admonishes the Corinthian church to be immulators of himself. Now…let’s look at Paul’s testimony….Acts 9:1-18 1And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest, 2And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem. 3And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. 7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. 8And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus. 9And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink. 10And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. 11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth, 12And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight. 13Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: 14And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. 15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. 17And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.Acts 22:10-16 10And I said, What shall I do, LORD? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do. 11And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus. 12And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there, 13Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him. 14And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth. 15For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard. 16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. So we are to be followers of Paul…PAUL OBEYED THE GOSPEL and was baptized in the name of the Lord! The “greasy grace” and “sloppy agape” doctrine of easy believism will always appeal to the flesh because it’s ooey, gooey, and easy. It’s primarily designed to gather as many converts as possible without asking anything of them so that they can begin tithing and bringing in money. Don’t give me easy believism. Give me the full, complete, whole, gospel truth of Scripture! Praise God. Luv ya'll but the truth is the truth. I know many today want to hear smooth things....but the truth is the truth.The message has never changed...(Acts 2:38 KJV)(38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
 

Aquila

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Which one serves? Water Baptism (by John the Baptist) or Baptism of the Holy Ghost (By Christ), Ephesians 4:5 says that there is only one baptism...
Here's the deal...John's baptism was a mikvah. It was a Jewish conversion practice done as part of Judaism. This was only a preparatory practice preparing the masses, it's known as the "baptism of repentance". There's a distinction between John’s Baptism of Repentance and Christian Baptism. In John’s Baptism of Repentance the convert took upon themselves repentance and was still identified with Judaism. However, Christian Baptism identifies the convert with Christ. Notice the name that water baptism was originally performed in:(Acts 2:38-41 KJV)(38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (39) For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. (40) And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. (41) Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.(Acts 8:14-17 KJV)(14) Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: (15) Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (16) (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) (17) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.(Acts 10:44-48 KJV) (44) While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. (45) And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. (46) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, (47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? (48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.(Acts 19:1-6 KJV)(1) And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, (2) He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. (3) And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. (4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. (5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (6) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.Water baptism was originally performed in the singular name of Jesus Christ, thereby identifying the believer with Jesus. This separated and distinguished them from Judaism…including the baptism of John. Notice in Acts 19 the disciples in Ephesus had already been water baptized by John…BUT Paul re-baptizes them in the name of Jesus to identify them with Christ…(Acts 19:1-6 KJV)(1) And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, (2) He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. (3) And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. (4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. (5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus[/u. (6) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.The baptism of John (John’s Baptism unto Repentance) is very different from Christian Baptism…if they were the same these Ephesian believers would not have needed to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. The two are different. Many don’t realize this and confuse the two thinking baptism is baptism. Wrong. John’s baptism and Christian baptism are very different. Only Christian baptism identifies one with Christ and his death, burial, and resurrection. Now…the Baptism of the Holy Ghost is the spiritual side of baptism. John’s Baptism only baptized the outer man, the physical man. Christian Baptism (the one baptism of Christianity) is composed of both Water and Spirit, baptizing the ENTIRE person (physical nature and spirit nature). Therefore New Testament Christian baptism is complete whereas all other practices were just outward acts. Here’s one major problem with us in Christianity…too many of us have yet to enter into the one baptism completely. Some have only been water baptized, baptizing the physical man…but haven’t received the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Some have received the baptism of the Holy Ghost…but have not obeyed and been water baptized. The water and blood flow together…as seen when Christ’s side was pierced; John puts it this way:1 John 5:8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.What agrees and testifies to our salvation? It is the Spirit (in the Holy Ghost baptism) the water (in water baptism) and the blood (wherewith we are sanctified) that testify to our salvation and part in the New Covenant. Here’s something to consider, water baptism is as important to Christians in the New Covenant as Circumcision was to the Jew in the Old Covenant….Colossians 2:10-12 10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.So we don’t need to be circumcised per the Old Covenant…but we are circumcised with the “circumcision made without hands” when buried with Jesus in water baptism. Notice also that this is part of Paul’s argument against Judaizing Christians trying to force circumcision on the Galatian Christians. Paul was essentially arguing that through baptism they were already circumcised… with the “circumcision made without hands”. If you didn’t believe in the significance of water baptism and it’s identification with Christ and as a token of the New Covenant much like circumcision was for the Jews…you’d not get along well with Paul. LOL You have to take the ENTIRE teaching of Scripture not just a few isolated verses and apply it to a subject or you’ll get the wrong idea. You see many take verses Paul wrote in the Epistles and stand on them…but they fail to realize that each letter wasn’t written to sinners…it was written to an already established church! A church that had already obeyed the gospel; meaning they had believed on the Lord, repented of sin, been water baptized in his name, and received the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Before one can claim any promise of the Epistles…one has to obey the very same Gospel as the churches to whom the Epistles were written! Praise God! I feel the Holy Ghost. LOL Paul wrote:1 Corinthians 4:16Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.1 Corinthians 11:1Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.When I was in college I was always told, “When you hear something twice in a lecture or from a professor…it’s going to be on the test.” LOL Twice Paul admonishes the Corinthian church to be immolators of himself. Now…let’s look at Paul’s testimony….Acts 9:1-18 1And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest, 2And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem. 3And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. 7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. 8And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus. 9And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink. 10And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. 11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth, 12And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight. 13Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: 14And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. 15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. 17And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.Acts 22:10-16 10And I said, What shall I do, LORD? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do. 11And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus. 12And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there, 13Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him. 14And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth. 15For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard. 16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. So we are to be followers of Paul…PAUL OBEYED THE GOSPEL and was baptized in the name of the Lord! The “greasy grace” and “sloppy agape” doctrine of easy believism will always appeal to the flesh because it’s gooey and easy. It’s primarily designed to gather as many converts as possible without asking anything of them so that they can begin tithing and bringing in money. Don’t give me easy believism. Give me the full, complete, whole, gospel truth of Scripture! I love y’all but truth is the truth. The message hasn’t changed…(Acts 2:38-41 KJV)(38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
 

Jordan

Active Member
Apr 6, 2007
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(Aquila;54231)
Here's the deal...John's baptism was a mikvah. It was a Jewish conversion practice done as part of Judaism. This was only a preparatory practice preparing the masses, it's known as the "baptism of repentance". There's a distinction between John’s Baptism of Repentance and Christian Baptism. In John’s Baptism of Repentance the convert took upon themselves repentance and was still identified with Judaism. However, Christian Baptism identifies the convert with Christ. Notice the name that water baptism was originally performed in:(Acts 2:38-41 KJV)(38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (39) For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. (40) And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. (41) Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.(Acts 8:14-17 KJV)(14) Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: (15) Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (16) (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) (17) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.(Acts 10:44-48 KJV) (44) While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. (45) And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. (46) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, (47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? (48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.(Acts 19:1-6 KJV)(1) And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, (2) He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. (3) And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. (4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. (5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (6) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.Water baptism was originally performed in the singular name of Jesus Christ, thereby identifying the believer with Jesus. This separated and distinguished them from Judaism…including the baptism of John. Notice in Acts 19 the disciples in Ephesus had already been water baptized by John…BUT Paul re-baptizes them in the name of Jesus to identify them with Christ…(Acts 19:1-6 KJV)(1) And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, (2) He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. (3) And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. (4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. (5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (6) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.The baptism of John (John’s Baptism unto Repentance) is very different from Christian Baptism…if they were the same these Ephesian believers would not have needed to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. The two are different. Many don’t realize this and confuse the two thinking baptism is baptism. Wrong. John’s baptism and Christian baptism are very different. Only Christian baptism identifies one with Christ and his death, burial, and resurrection. Now…the Baptism of the Holy Ghost is the spiritual side of baptism. John’s Baptism only baptized the outer man, the physical man. Christian Baptism (the one baptism of Christianity) is composed of both Water and Spirit, baptizing the ENTIRE person (physical nature and spirit nature). Therefore New Testament Christian baptism is complete whereas all other practices were just outward acts. Here’s one major problem with us in Christianity…too many of us have yet to enter into the one baptism completely. Some have only been water baptized, baptizing the physical man…but haven’t received the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Some have received the baptism of the Holy Ghost…but have not obeyed and been water baptized. The water and blood flow together…as seen when Christ’s side was pierced; John puts it this way:1 John 5:8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.What agrees and testifies to our salvation? It is the Spirit (in the Holy Ghost baptism) the water (in water baptism) and the blood (wherewith we are sanctified) that testify to our salvation and part in the New Covenant. Here’s something to consider, water baptism is as important to Christians in the New Covenant as Circumcision was to the Jew in the Old Covenant….Colossians 2:10-12 10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.So we don’t need to be circumcised per the Old Covenant…but we are circumcised with the “circumcision made without hands” when buried with Jesus in water baptism. Paul was essentially arguing that through baptism they were already circumcised… with the “circumcision made without hands”. If you didn’t believe in the significance of water baptism and it’s identification with Christ and as a key part of the New Covenant much like circumcision was for the Jews…you’d not get along well with Paul. LOL You have to take the ENTIRE teaching of Scripture not just a few isolated verses and apply it to a subject or you’ll get the wrong idea. You see many take verses Paul wrote in the Epistles and stand on them…but they fail to realize that each letter wasn’t written to sinners…it was written to an already established church! A church that had already obeyed the gospel; meaning they had believed on the Lord, repented of sin, been water baptized in his name, and received the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Before one can claim any promise of the Epistles…one has to obey the very same Gospel as the churches to whom the Epistles were written! Praise God! I feel the Holy Ghost. LOL Paul wrote:1 Corinthians 4:16Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.1 Corinthians 11:1Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.When I was in college I was always told, “When you hear something twice in a lecture or from a professor…it’s going to be on the test.” LOL Twice Paul admonishes the Corinthian church to be immulators of himself. Now…let’s look at Paul’s testimony….Acts 9:1-18 1And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest, 2And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem. 3And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. 7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. 8And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus. 9And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink. 10And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. 11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth, 12And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight. 13Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: 14And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. 15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. 17And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.Acts 22:10-16 10And I said, What shall I do, LORD? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do. 11And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus. 12And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there, 13Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him. 14And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth. 15For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard. 16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. So we are to be followers of Paul…PAUL OBEYED THE GOSPEL and was baptized in the name of the Lord! The “greasy grace” and “sloppy agape” doctrine of easy believism will always appeal to the flesh because it’s ooey, gooey, and easy. It’s primarily designed to gather as many converts as possible without asking anything of them so that they can begin tithing and bringing in money. Don’t give me easy believism. Give me the full, complete, whole, gospel truth of Scripture! Praise God. Luv ya'll but the truth is the truth. I know many today want to hear smooth things....but the truth is the truth.The message has never changed...(Acts 2:38 KJV)(38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
So how can you fit the thief (malefactors) that died on a cross, who wasn't water baptized, yet Christ say He promised to save him?Luke 23:42 - And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.Luke 23:43 - And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
 

winsome

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Feb 15, 2008
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So how can you fit the thief (malefactors) that died on a cross, who wasn't water baptized, yet Christ say He promised to save him?Luke 23:42 - And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.Luke 23:43 - And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
If you look back to post #21 you will find this has already been answered.
 

treeoflife

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Apr 30, 2008
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Also "frustrating the gospel of grace" that you speak of is a reference to Galatians. The Galatian church was being plagued by the Judaizers who were demanding circumcision and adherence to Mosaic Law. We are no longer under the Old Covenant, we are under the New Covenant. Water baptism is part of the New Covenant teachings of Christ and the Apostles.
Though I disagree, I do want to credit you for your patience as we discuss these things. I think our conversation trailed off into slavation, by works/obedience, rather than staying on just the subject of this thread... baptism. So, as far as that goes, I'll just say that it most certainly was not required for salvation. It is a work, however you want to look at it, and there are circumstances where such a work would not be possible. For example, deathbed conversions. But even without that, it is still a work, and therefore not required for salvation. Good, as we are asked to do it... it edifies us and pleases God I think, but as far as salvation goes... it is useless.
 

watt

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Jun 21, 2008
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in The Name Of The Father And Of The Son And Of The Holy SpiritHere I Am Again To Share The Truth Of God LovePlease... 95% Of Those Who Are In This Site Have No Holy Spirit Because The Baptism Is Not Valid.You Guys Dont Follow What Jesus Say... What You Did You Follow Man Instruction And That Man Is Dead To You.... So How Can The Dead Give You The Truth, Life, And The Holy Spirit. .May God Forgive All Our Sin.AmenFrom Watt
 

Alpha and Omega

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May 11, 2008
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in The Name Of The Father And Of The Son And Of The Holy SpiritHere I Am Again To Share The Truth Of God LovePlease... 95% Of Those Who Are In This Site Have No Holy Spirit Because The Baptism Is Not Valid.You Guys Dont Follow What Jesus Say... What You Did You Follow Man Instruction And That Man Is Dead To You.... So How Can The Dead Give You The Truth, Life, And The Holy Spirit. .May God Forgive All Our Sin.AmenFrom Watt
This includes you!Stop calling others out when you do not even understand the word of God. Matthew 7:26 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:Luke 6:4646 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
 

watt

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Jun 21, 2008
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In The Name Of The Father And Of The Son And Of The Holy SpiritHere I Am Again To Share Rhe Truth Of God Love(alpha And Omega;54288)
this Includes You!oh Yess...that Was 20 Years Ago, I Was Not Well Prepared For The Confirmation..so I Re Do It Again. So Here I Am...Stop Calling Others Out When You Do Not Even Understand The Word Of God. sorry....i Must Share 'the Truth' With You All...for This Is The Purpose Why I Came Here To Remind You Of God Loving Kindness.Matthew 7:26 26 And Every One That Heareth These Sayings Of Mine, And Doeth Them Not, Shall Be Likened Unto A Foolish Man, Which Built His House Upon The Sand:see!!! You Your Self Quoted This Verse From The Bible...the Spirit Have Move Your Heart To Pick Up This Verse And It Is Specially For All Of You Here... This Is What Jesus Want To Tell You...that All Of You Are Who Baptise Not According To Jesus Instruction Are Like A Foolish Man, Which Build His House Upon The Sand.Luke 6:4646 And Why Call Ye Me, Lord, Lord, And Do Not The Things Which I Say?
see!! And Keep In Your Heart,mind And Your Soul.Jesus Is Speaking To You!!!As Jesus Said "truly I Said To You,unless One Is Born Again Of Water And Spirit He Cannot Enter The Kingdom Of God" (john 3:5) When Spoken This Word.. You Guys Did Not Believe And Did Not Follow What Jesus Say!!As I Told You All Earlier "go And Look For Those Who Have The Authority On Earth And In Heaven To Baptise You In The Name Of The Father And Of The Son And Of The Holy Spirit" Which Related To Matthew 28:19-20.....but You Guys Still Did Not Believe...follow Your Own Desire And Suit Everything According To Own Desire Of Flesh....you Noticed This But You Guts Ignore It.That Why Jesus Said "and Why You Call Me, Lord, Lord, And Did Not Do The Thing I Say??"Peter Was Still Speaking When A Bright Cloud Covered Them In Its Shadow, And A Voice From The Cloud Said:-"This Is My Son(jesus), The Beloved, My Chosen One. Listen To Him."This Is What God The Father Who Are In Heaven Speaking To All Of Us Here. May God Forgive All Our Sin.AmenFrom Watt