The Elect?

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ScottA

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The only difficulty here is the timing.

This is God's creation. Do pots elect themselves, do pancakes? Of course not! It is He who has elected all according to His will - He is the Potter!

The timing then, is also relative to God, rather than to men. When Paul explained that we come "each in his own order" he was speaking of our doing so while the worlds clocks are ticking. But time is a part of God's creation - God on the other hand, is not. Which means, that His elections were all "before the foundation of the world." And this, this "each in his own order" manifestation, is simply the telling or enactment of what was written of what has occurred "before the foundation of the world."

God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. As far as He is concerned - from His timeless perspective...so are we.
 

Stranger

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So it is not a sin. Who cares if I am in my sin; it is paid for anyways. Any sins that I am "living in", no matter position [since my "location" isn't a sin anyways] are paid for by the blood of Christ, because you said he died for all sins of all men. So all would be in heaven. You are trying to say "Well you see; being in Adam is not a sin; but if you are in Adam you are in your sin." You say this as though it negates the fact that you stated Christ died for ALL sins; including the sin of me living in my sins!

So, all men are in heaven then?

All sins are paid for because Christ paid the penalty for Sin.

I am not trying to say anything. I am saying it. Being in Adam is not a sin. That is just a location. But because you are in Adam you are a sinner. If being in Adam is a sin, then God is a sinner for it is He who places us in Adam. God placing me in Adam is not a sin. But due to Adam's sin, I am a sinner. So now all in Adam are sinners, due to both Adams sin, and then their own sins.

Christ did die for All as He paid the penalty for Sin. All of Adam's descendants are sinners. All of the Last Adam's descendants are righteous. Again, the question is, who are you in? Adam or Christ.

No, not all men are in Heaven.

Stranger
 

Stranger

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Exactly. Motivated by flesh. Didn’t say they were not elected only that He rebuked them when they wanted to call down fire as Elias did and consume them.

Well, it says 'you know not what spirit you are of'. That is a spiritual motivation.

Election is really not the subject matter of this verse. I was just trying to answer your questions.

Stranger
 

Mjh29

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All sins are paid for because Christ paid the penalty for Sin.

I am not trying to say anything. I am saying it. Being in Adam is not a sin. That is just a location. But because you are in Adam you are a sinner. If being in Adam is a sin, then God is a sinner for it is He who places us in Adam. God placing me in Adam is not a sin. But due to Adam's sin, I am a sinner. So now all in Adam are sinners, due to both Adams sin, and then their own sins.

Christ did die for All as He paid the penalty for Sin. All of Adam's descendants are sinners. All of the Last Adam's descendants are righteous. Again, the question is, who are you in? Adam or Christ.

No, not all men are in Heaven.

Stranger

The only way all men are not in heaven AND Christ died for all men is if you save yourself, which is works righteousness.

You still don't get it; it does not matter if it is
just a location". If being in that location is not a sin, there is no penalty for it and therefore all men are in heaven. Location does not make you go to heaven or hell unless it is a sin itself.
 

VictoryinJesus

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Well, it says 'you know not what spirit you are of'. That is a spiritual motivation.

Election is really not the subject matter of this verse. I was just trying to answer your questions.

Stranger

‘you know not what spirit you are of’ is not about being elected into a perfect man which is Christ?

Job 8:20-22
[20] Behold, God will not cast away a perfect man , neither will he help the evil doers: [21] Till he fill thy mouth with laughing, and thy lips with rejoicing. [22] They that hate thee shall be clothed with shame; and the dwelling place of the wicked shall come to nought.

Ephesians 4:13-14
[13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: [14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

In The perfect man which is Christ: little children no longer tossed to and fro. Colossians 3:9-10 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; [10] And have put on the new man , which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:


satan lies in wait to deceive.

Where we could agree ...
If the elect are in Christ? Who are in Adam?

The non-elect.
 
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bbyrd009

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Will reasonable service reward us with Life? Is Life equal that Nirvana or Elysian Fields of which you have spoke identified by some as heaven?
I can think of several Scriptures that assure us otherwise--assuming we are talking about tomorrow, or kingdoms that may be perceived with our senses--but a reading last night suggested that there were many places in Scripture that tell us to contemplate or focus on "that which is," unfortunately without giving any examples, and I can't think of any, can you? Haven't searched the phrase yet obv
 

bbyrd009

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We are to live our lives constantly growing and learning and becoming more and more like God, and in this sense making our calling and election sure. In other words, we should never live our lives thinking "Oh, I'm safe.... no need to improve;" Election and calling are no excuse to stop growing in Christ.
ok, ty
But rather, election is based on nothing more than the Will and good pleasure of God.
hopefully it is at least possible to see how all you have done is amended your previous statement to agree with me basically, without making any admission?

So is your position now "election is based on nothing more than the will and good pleasure of God, only we have to do it all?"
 
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bbyrd009

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See bc we don't realize it when we talk, I guess, but we are basically building an algorithm...that we expect others to equate if we assume the Stand of leadership, right, we say "it's like this and like that" imagining that we might be helping someone else, rather than possibly crying for help ourselves?

Which I guess most ppl are prolly like scared of algorithms or something, the term implies like maybe some dense and impenetrable maths equation, huh, when really we are as intimate with them as we are with the Hegelian dialectic, only the term is not familiar. I'll arg go develop some example I guess lol, brb
 

bbyrd009

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An algorithm is just a recipe, ya.
Unfort this will get dense pretty quick bc the subject is computers, but you are just a computer too. There are books on "algorithms for human behavior" or "human decisions" too, and these might also be searched, but,
What Are Algorithms? - dummies
might do for a start.

I suggest these for self-application, rather than the way I'm using them here, bc after all even though I suspect hypocrisy or duplicity above, I might be misunderstanding some small input, or the other might even have meant a diff input and just poorly chose the terms, etc. Even self-bias should be noted, must be actually, hence my admission above. I am a hypocrite too iow; but regardless 1=1
 

SovereignGrace

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All sins are paid for because Christ paid the penalty for Sin.

I am not trying to say anything. I am saying it. Being in Adam is not a sin. That is just a location. But because you are in Adam you are a sinner. If being in Adam is a sin, then God is a sinner for it is He who places us in Adam. God placing me in Adam is not a sin. But due to Adam's sin, I am a sinner. So now all in Adam are sinners, due to both Adams sin, and then their own sins.

Christ did die for All as He paid the penalty for Sin. All of Adam's descendants are sinners. All of the Last Adam's descendants are righteous. Again, the question is, who are you in? Adam or Christ.

No, not all men are in Heaven.

Stranger
Ppl are either in Adam or in Christ. To be in Christ means to be saved. To be in Adam is to be in sin. This which is bolded of yours is false, not biblical, neither supported by scripture. :(
 
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Episkopos

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Who is doing the accepting and who is doing the pleasing?

We are to labour to be pleasing to God and be accepted of Him. But the modern carnal gospel has God trying to please us so we can accept Him. Fully backwards.
 
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bbyrd009

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Who is doing the accepting and who is doing the pleasing?

We are to labour to be pleasing to God and be accepted of Him. But the modern carnal gospel has God trying to please us so we can accept Him. Fully backwards.
again I am prompted to note the general misapplication of "it is finished"
 

bbyrd009

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For Jesus it is finished. For us it is just getting started.
yet I am currently in about three other discussions with believers here who seem to be insisting otherwise...at least one of them on this thread. Well, dunno if "discussions" is the right word lol, "aborted sermons" or something might be closer, I don't ever seem to get replies where it matters...I wonder if some model of complete anonymity would help maybe
 

amadeus

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I can think of several Scriptures that assure us otherwise--assuming we are talking about tomorrow, or kingdoms that may be perceived with our senses--but a reading last night suggested that there were many places in Scripture that tell us to contemplate or focus on "that which is," unfortunately without giving any examples, and I can't think of any, can you? Haven't searched the phrase yet obv
The phrase "that which is" has too many examples to easily sort through at the moment. I looked at a few and realized their meanings were seldom, I believe, the meaning you would intend. Time as man sees usually sees it in a way quite differently than God would view it is likely the trouble. If there is a heaven or a Life without end is it not to be understood as "now" rather than what man so often presumes. Yesterday is gone. Tomorrow may indeed never come at all... if it in any real sense exists for God or for those who really believe in Him.

Today is the day that the Lord made. Today is the day we are to rejoice or not...!

"This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it." Psalm 118:24
Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." Matt 6:34


Also notice when the "never die" begins:

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" John 11:25-26


Martha heard his words, but by her response I would say that she still misunderstood him and he did not clarify further at the moment. She also was waiting for the "later" which so many today still await. People want the beginning of Life and the beginning of their eternity to be "later" because they cannot see any man qualifying at the moment. Let us then some would say wait under "after" the dirt in thrown onto our faces and we meet with Him "face to face". The time for the "face to face" meeting is also "now".

For the most part as I understand it, the problem is that people do not and I guess cannot understand what perfection or overcoming means to God. They have even put their own understandings in Webster's dictionaries and use that rather than trying to understand what they mean to God. They are in scripture, but people read to understand their own beliefs rather than to be led by God to His knowledge.
 
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Helen

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The phrase "that which is" has too many examples to easily sort through at the moment. I looked at a few and realized their meanings were seldom, I believe, the meaning you would intend. Time as man sees usually sees it in a way quite differently than God would view it is likely the trouble. If there is a heaven or a Life without end is it not to be understood as "now" rather than what man so often presumes. Yesterday is gone. Tomorrow may indeed never come at all... if it in any real sense exists for God or for those who really believe in Him.

Today is the day that the Lord made. Today is the day we are to rejoice or not...!

"This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it." Psalm 118:24
Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." Matt 6:34


Also notice when the "never die" begins:

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" John 11:25-26


Martha heard his words, but by her response I would say that she still misunderstood him and he did not clarify further at the moment. She also was waiting for the "later" which so many today still await. People want the beginning of Life and the beginning of their eternity to be "later" because they cannot see any man qualifying at the moment. Let us then some would say wait under "after" the dirt in thrown onto our faces and we meet with Him "face to face". The time for the "face to face" meeting is also "now".

For the most part as I understand it, the problem is that people do not and I guess cannot understand what perfection or overcoming means to God. They have even put their own understandings in Webster's dictionaries and use that rather than trying to understand what they mean to God. They are in scripture, but people read to understand their own beliefs rather than to be led by God to His knowledge.

Good post...and I enjoyed your reference to "when never die begins" :)
excellent word John .
 

Stranger

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The only way all men are not in heaven AND Christ died for all men is if you save yourself, which is works righteousness.

You still don't get it; it does not matter if it is
just a location". If being in that location is not a sin, there is no penalty for it and therefore all men are in heaven. Location does not make you go to heaven or hell unless it is a sin itself.

One has to place faith in Christ to get out of Adam and be in Christ. Take it up with God. It's a requirement He has made.

I have already told you. Being in Adam is not a sin. That makes God a sinner because it is God who places you in Adam. Being in Adam means you are a sinner because of Adam.

You're not paying attention. Location means everything. See (Rom. 5:13-14). "For until the law sins was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

Did you get it? The sins of the people from Adam to Moses were not imputed to these people. But they still died. Why did they die? Because of Adam's sin. Because they were in Adam. Because of the act of one man.

So, being in Christ means the believer is righteous, not because of his good things he does, but because he is in Christ. Because of the act of one Man.

That is not works. That is pure Grace. Location means everything.

Stranger
 

Stranger

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Ppl are either in Adam or in Christ. To be in Christ means to be saved. To be in Adam is to be in sin. This which is bolded of yours is false, not biblical, neither supported by scripture. :(

Yes, people are either in Adam or in Christ. To be in Adam means you are a sinner. To be in Christ means you are righteous.

Being in Adam itself is not a sin. Else you find God guilty of sin because it is God who put us there. God places us in Adam. Then when Adam fell, we fell with him.

You were 'in Adam' prior to the fall. Was that a sin?

See?

Stranger
 

Stranger

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‘you know not what spirit you are of’ is not about being elected into a perfect man which is Christ?

Job 8:20-22
[20] Behold, God will not cast away a perfect man , neither will he help the evil doers: [21] Till he fill thy mouth with laughing, and thy lips with rejoicing. [22] They that hate thee shall be clothed with shame; and the dwelling place of the wicked shall come to nought.

Ephesians 4:13-14
[13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: [14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

In The perfect man which is Christ: little children no longer tossed to and fro. Colossians 3:9-10 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; [10] And have put on the new man , which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:


satan lies in wait to deceive.

Where we could agree ...

See post #(128)

Stranger
 

SovereignGrace

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Yes, people are either in Adam or in Christ. To be in Adam means you are a sinner. To be in Christ means you are righteous.

Being in Adam itself is not a sin. Else you find God guilty of sin because it is God who put us there. God places us in Adam. Then when Adam fell, we fell with him.

You were 'in Adam' prior to the fall. Was that a sin?

See?

Stranger

Adam was all his posterity's representative, but I think that's quite the stretch to say it was God who put us there. What vs or vss states God put us in Adam?