Let's stay focused on the issues, not the personalities.
The Issue of Calvinism.
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CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
I think he's talking about the doctrine of Calvinism, that it lends to this kind of "humble" thinking.
Unconditional Election means that we are chosen for no apparent reason.
If you understand that the Bible teaches that Christian believers are morally superior to unbelievers (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:17), you come up with that very concept...
That as one of the elect, I am a superior person for no apparent reason.
There appears to be a disagreement among you from my perspective (though SG gave lip service to agreement, he is actually saying something different).
SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
There are no "" around the word humbling in our theology, just in your mind. Unconditional Election teaches there are no conditions His sheep have to meet in order to be saved. Unconditional Election teaches that the Christ met every condition for them. Unconditional election teaches God based His electing love upon those who He elected upon Himself, not upon what they do or who they are.
The exact opposite of Unconditional Election is Conditional Election, which teaches that the lost have to meet certain criteria, certain conditions, and then only AFTER they meet them, God then elects them. Everyone could potentially meet them, if they do their part. If they choose to not meet them, then they die lost. The onus of their salvation rests upon them. That makes the cross of none effect to those who choose not to meet those conditions. So, you actually are teaching the cross + ppl meeting those conditions = salvation. That's a false gospel.
SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
Okay, humor me here a little. What conditions did YOU meet in order for God to elect and save you?
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Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
Wondering here when senseless drivel made a person superior.
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
Scripture lines out those behaviors I listed, how they behave toward others, to call them out, and to avoid them. I did that, and will probably do so again.
Do you two need some Biblical references as evidence, or, would you two rather pat yourselves on the back while you turn a blind eye to a professing brother (among others) who casts lies upon many, while attempting to slight one who calls him out?
It is noted that neither of you two have once called out those anti-calvinists for their lies, insults, callow name calling and other behaviors, seen not only in this thread, but elsewhere.
If you don't like my calling these out while you sit, watch, complain, and turn a blind eye to the other side of the aisle, feel free to put me on ignore because I'll probably do so again.
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OzSpen
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OzSpen
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SG,
I have read White's book and do not agree with his opposition to Geisler's biblical interpretations as being 'dismantled'.
Your kind of statement avoids dealing with the issues Geisler raised. Have you read Geisler's book?
Oz
SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
No. Don’t want to, either. I know his system, as I believed it for years.
Trust me, Dr. White dismantled it.
Certainly. John says "Not for our sins only." John was speaking to a specific group of Christian believers. "But also for the sins of the whole world." John is explaining that salvation will go forth unto every nation, just as Christ did.
Again, we have to remember that in his letters, they are addressed to Christians, not non believers. John is speaking to this church, and telling them that the salvation which they had received is going to and seek out and save every one of God's chosen from every corner of the earth.
OzSpen
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AD,
I would add that I can't support,
1. Unconditional election because believers are 'elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father' (1 Pet 1:2).
2. Limited atonement is refuted by several Scriptures:
Passages Supporting Universal Atonement
Universal (or unlimited) atonement is supported throughout the New Testament. John 3:16–17 says that “God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son. . . . God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.” The Greek word kosmos, translated “the world,” covers the inhabitants of the entire earth. Other verses supporting unlimited atonement include John 1:29, where Jesus is said to take away “the sin of the world”; Romans 11:32, in which God has mercy on “all” the disobedient; and 1 John 2:2, which says Jesus is “the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.”
None of these verses contain any kind of limitation, stated or implied, on Christ’s sacrifice. As if saying that Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the world was not sufficient, the apostle John specifically included the Greek word holou, which means “whole, entire, all, complete.” Unless limited atonement is presumed, there is no solid basis for limiting the extent of the atonement mentioned in 1 John 2:2 (Got Questions, What are the main arguments against limited atonement?)
3. Irresistible grace.Universal (or unlimited) atonement is supported throughout the New Testament. John 3:16–17 says that “God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son. . . . God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.” The Greek word kosmos, translated “the world,” covers the inhabitants of the entire earth. Other verses supporting unlimited atonement include John 1:29, where Jesus is said to take away “the sin of the world”; Romans 11:32, in which God has mercy on “all” the disobedient; and 1 John 2:2, which says Jesus is “the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.”
None of these verses contain any kind of limitation, stated or implied, on Christ’s sacrifice. As if saying that Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the world was not sufficient, the apostle John specifically included the Greek word holou, which means “whole, entire, all, complete.” Unless limited atonement is presumed, there is no solid basis for limiting the extent of the atonement mentioned in 1 John 2:2 (Got Questions, What are the main arguments against limited atonement?)
God is not willing that any perish but all be saved: Tit 2:11; 1 Ti 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9.
What's the point of evangelism if believers are unconditionally elected because of limited atonement and irresistible grace? If irresistible grace is biblical, no preacher can preach to a group of unsaved people to repent, seek forgiveness and have faith in Jesus alone. It would be fake preaching to call ALL to repent when ALL cannot come, according to Calvinism.
Oz
Mike Dwight
Member
Ya sure, and then, half the time people Annoy passers-by, what do you say? Hey where's the cops? "I got a right to scream the Bible man" "save save save". Same thing plus monks with time on their hands. So did your theoretical people ever exist in all history or in Biblical times? Hey we all know everything that we Wanted to have known that we don't know that's in the Bible, and, we're totally totally unsaved and we should get saved, and, you just gotta sprinkle sprinkle, wait! Calvinism police! Shut down! No case I'm ever aware of is about blocking as if I even know what that means. Catholics didn't want the intrusion, some small-believer group has to feel special.
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I am a Christian. I am not a Calvinist. I am a Christian because I follow Christ.
From my perspective, you seem to double-speak in a contradictory fashion. During our conversation, you promoted free will; on the other hand, you say that you "NEVER once doubted the Sovereignty of God". Free will and the Sovereignty of God are opposing because the Sovereignty of God in part can be desribed as salvation is by God's grace for God's glory with the dead, poor, unworthy, wretched person that God chooses/elects being blessed by the Lord Jesus Christ to Life eternal in the power of God which the person can not resist nor desires to resist because the Spirit of the Living God brings about the belief and actions of the person resulting in the scriptural fact that solely by the power of God the desires/will of the person are brought into accord and unity with God's will.
Lady Crosstalk, you wrote that you "just don't agree with your dogma of 'irresistible grace'." Let's visit just Whose teaching it is that a person can not resist the unearned love of God. God says:
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."
(John 6:37)
In the moment, the very moment that the Lord Jesus spoke those words, He declared that the person can not resist for He said "will come to Me". By definition, "not resist" is synonymous with irresistible. Another example:
As Jesus went on from there, He saw a man called Matthew, sitting in the tax collector's booth; and He said to him, "Follow Me!" And he got up and followed Him.
(Matthew 9:9)
In the moment, the very moment that the Lord Jesus spoke "Follow Me!", Matthew acted according to God's words, according to God's will.
Lady Crosstalk, I suspect that you are at loggerheads with John Calvin, and I further suspect that you are taking it out, so to speak, in the wrong direction.
Mike Dwight
Member
Well don't you feel smart, because Calvin himself hated "Calvinist" for the same reason made by opponents, it seems like a favorite of the entire catholic church when they throw out Elizabeth as "Calvinist".
Hello brother! I would love to try and help clear up and confusion, if you would give me the time!
Before the foundation of the world, God chose particular individuals for salvation. His selection was not based upon any foreseen response or act performed. Faith and good works are the result, not the cause, of God's choice.
Mark 13:20
Ephesians 1:4
1 Thessalonians 1:4
2 Thessalonians 2:13
Romans 9:11-13
Romans 9:16
Romans 10:20
2 Timothy 1:9
Ok, so let's look at these.
John 3:16 -- This is a classic verse, and I can honestly see the misunderstanding. I once believed this same thing! For God so loved the WORLD! This must mean everyone, right? But upon further investigation, we see a few verses down John 3:19. Then, I looked into the Greek lexicon and concordance, because I was so confused. I found that, while it is true that kosmos means 'world' the phrase for "Whosoever" actually means "all the believing." Not every person on the planet, but rather all those who God would have come to faith in Him would be saved, all over the entire globe.
John 1:29 -- Again, the word world here does not have reference to individuals. Christ's atonement was sufficient to save all those who God would call, all throughout the entire world, not just in the tiny country they were in. Again, these passages do not make reference to individuals, but rather the planet we all live on.
Romans 11:32 -- Here is one where we need to read the entirety of the book to understand what Paul is referencing. If we read the beginning of the chapter, the question is asked "Has God put off the Jews?" And Paul then responds "No, but..." enter Romans 11:32. What he is saying is that, although God has not put off the Jews, salvation is now "For all!" There is no more Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male of female; ALL can share in this bounty. It is no longer for the Jews only. And this is consistent with the rest of Scriptures.
1 John 2:2 -- Again, although it is totally understandable that you would think that this is saying all people, we have to understand that this verse is referencing the world itself, not everyone living on it. The planet is different from the inhabitants. We are mankind, not Earth.
Titus 2:11 -- Again, brother, we see that this is referring to all kinds of peoples, not all people ever. It does not matter ethnicity [which was the big argument of the day: "I am not a Jew, how can I be saved?]
1 Timothy 2:4 -- Again, all kinds of people. In my bible, the note says this, which I hope might help you.
"Another argument, why Churches or Congregations ought to pray for all men, without any difference of nation, kind, age, or order. To wit, because the Lord by calling all sorts, yea, sometimes those that are the greatest enemies of the Gospel, will have his Church gathered together after this sort, and therefore prayers to be made for all."
2 Peter 3:9 -- Again, if I may respond using the note in my study Bible, as no doubt the authors of it are vastly more knowledgeable than I am and have stated it better than I could:
"A reason why the latter day cometh not out of hand, because God doth patiently wait till the elect are brought to repentance, that none of them may perish."
The reasons behind evangelism are 2 fold;
1.) Because Jesus told us to. This in and of itself should be reason enough to do so
2.) Because, although there is an elect people of God, it is impossible for any to know who are and are not elect before the Gospel is preached to them. Even if God died for all, could we then tell who is and who is not saved? Still, the answer would be no. Just because we are of the elect does not mean we can then claim to know who is also in our ranks. Only God knows this, only God can give the increase. But that does not then negate the duty to plant and water.
Before the foundation of the world, God chose particular individuals for salvation. His selection was not based upon any foreseen response or act performed. Faith and good works are the result, not the cause, of God's choice.
Mark 13:20
Ephesians 1:4
1 Thessalonians 1:4
2 Thessalonians 2:13
Romans 9:11-13
Romans 9:16
Romans 10:20
2 Timothy 1:9
Ok, so let's look at these.
John 3:16 -- This is a classic verse, and I can honestly see the misunderstanding. I once believed this same thing! For God so loved the WORLD! This must mean everyone, right? But upon further investigation, we see a few verses down John 3:19. Then, I looked into the Greek lexicon and concordance, because I was so confused. I found that, while it is true that kosmos means 'world' the phrase for "Whosoever" actually means "all the believing." Not every person on the planet, but rather all those who God would have come to faith in Him would be saved, all over the entire globe.
John 1:29 -- Again, the word world here does not have reference to individuals. Christ's atonement was sufficient to save all those who God would call, all throughout the entire world, not just in the tiny country they were in. Again, these passages do not make reference to individuals, but rather the planet we all live on.
Romans 11:32 -- Here is one where we need to read the entirety of the book to understand what Paul is referencing. If we read the beginning of the chapter, the question is asked "Has God put off the Jews?" And Paul then responds "No, but..." enter Romans 11:32. What he is saying is that, although God has not put off the Jews, salvation is now "For all!" There is no more Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male of female; ALL can share in this bounty. It is no longer for the Jews only. And this is consistent with the rest of Scriptures.
1 John 2:2 -- Again, although it is totally understandable that you would think that this is saying all people, we have to understand that this verse is referencing the world itself, not everyone living on it. The planet is different from the inhabitants. We are mankind, not Earth.
Titus 2:11 -- Again, brother, we see that this is referring to all kinds of peoples, not all people ever. It does not matter ethnicity [which was the big argument of the day: "I am not a Jew, how can I be saved?]
1 Timothy 2:4 -- Again, all kinds of people. In my bible, the note says this, which I hope might help you.
"Another argument, why Churches or Congregations ought to pray for all men, without any difference of nation, kind, age, or order. To wit, because the Lord by calling all sorts, yea, sometimes those that are the greatest enemies of the Gospel, will have his Church gathered together after this sort, and therefore prayers to be made for all."
2 Peter 3:9 -- Again, if I may respond using the note in my study Bible, as no doubt the authors of it are vastly more knowledgeable than I am and have stated it better than I could:
"A reason why the latter day cometh not out of hand, because God doth patiently wait till the elect are brought to repentance, that none of them may perish."
The reasons behind evangelism are 2 fold;
1.) Because Jesus told us to. This in and of itself should be reason enough to do so
2.) Because, although there is an elect people of God, it is impossible for any to know who are and are not elect before the Gospel is preached to them. Even if God died for all, could we then tell who is and who is not saved? Still, the answer would be no. Just because we are of the elect does not mean we can then claim to know who is also in our ranks. Only God knows this, only God can give the increase. But that does not then negate the duty to plant and water.
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
I'd like to see an example. So far all you've given is an opinion and unsubstantiated assertion.
So, for example?
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