I can't recall a moment in which I hated the Lord. I know that I must have before I was born again. But much of my memory of what it was like to not be born again is not in my brain anymore. I know what I was in my heart; I do not recall if or how my iniquity was directed towards God.
The Issue of Calvinism.
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Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
This just shows yet again your inability to discern context. He's talking about the lost state.
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Sometimes we cannot recall when we hated God brother. And I would say that a hate for or enmity against God can sometimes not even be outwardly shown or even acknowledged by us. But all are born in sin, and if you are not for Christ, you are against Him.
No. My heart has been changed by the Spirit. I now have been shown the glory and power of God, and have been brought to worship Him.
Romans 5:10
2 Corinthians 5:18-19
Ephesians 2:15-16
Colossians 1:21-22
I pray that He would open your mind to the acknowledging of the truth, then Brother.
For if you are really for Him, then the Scriptures are of the utmost importance to you. All I would advise is a more careful exegesis of the Word of God, and He shall indeed illuminate your path.
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
That's good!!!!!!!!! Now, let others show you how to use Scripture properly; 2 Timothy 2:15.
As am I, brother. And I do not doubt your zeal for Him; anyone who would come online as often as you do to a Christians forum I would assume and hope has zeal. All that is needed it to take that zeal, and to apply it to the right dividing of the Word of Truth. And there are plenty here that would help you do so.
It has nothing to do with us being "right." I could care less if I am right, I am irrelevant. What I DO care about it the proper handling and understanding of the things put forth in Scriptures, from God and Jesus down to Salvation.
We are here to help and learn, not harm. But we are sticklers for the truth. If you are interested, I could suggest books and other material for you to read, and we can help as well.
For His Glory!
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
So, now that you have been regenerated so that you do not hate Christ, I urge you to receive Him (by confessing with your mouth the Lord Jesus, even calling on His name). And you will be saved.
I already have received Him. Because He has received me. There is nothing I can do, not "Say this and this will happen."
Those who are already changed of heart and are already saved do indeed confess with their mouths that Jesus is Lord, but doing this does not save. Only God's changing of the heart can save. Not all who say "Lord, Lord," will be saved.
Anthony D'Arienzo
Well-Known Member
Anthony D'Arienzo
Well-Known Member
OzSpen,
[What's the point of evangelism if believers are unconditionally elected because of limited atonement and irresistible grace?]
We evangelize because that is the God ordained means to reach all of the elect worldwide.
The fact of unconditional election does not hinder evangelism. it gives it strength.
watch;
acts18;
9 Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:
10 For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.
He did not say all...He had much people. He knew them as sinners he purposed to save.
[If irresistible grace is biblical, no preacher can preach to a group of unsaved people to repent, seek forgiveness and have faith in Jesus alone.]
Sure they can an do. We do not know when the Spirit will regenerate someone.
[It would be fake preaching to call ALL to repent when ALL cannot come, according to Calvinism
Not at all... God has commanded all men to repent and believe the gospel.
[What's the point of evangelism if believers are unconditionally elected because of limited atonement and irresistible grace?]
We evangelize because that is the God ordained means to reach all of the elect worldwide.
The fact of unconditional election does not hinder evangelism. it gives it strength.
watch;
acts18;
9 Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:
10 For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.
He did not say all...He had much people. He knew them as sinners he purposed to save.
[If irresistible grace is biblical, no preacher can preach to a group of unsaved people to repent, seek forgiveness and have faith in Jesus alone.]
Sure they can an do. We do not know when the Spirit will regenerate someone.
[It would be fake preaching to call ALL to repent when ALL cannot come, according to Calvinism
Not at all... God has commanded all men to repent and believe the gospel.
This is contrary to Romans 10:9-13.
Rom 10:9, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10, For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11, For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12, For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
There are those who say to Jesus, Lord, Lord; but who do not obey Him in their lives: therefore they are not confessing Him as Lord, they are merely giving lip service to the fact that He is Lord. They also may not have a heart belief that God hath raised Him from the dead.
But for those who truly call on the name of the Lord (see also Acts of the Apostles 4:10-12), the promise is absolute: they shall be saved.
This is what I am saying about Calvinism: that it takes away the means by which we are saved and trivializes it.
It teaches that a man does not need to receive the Lord Jesus because if he is even able to do so he is already saved and therefore it is not necessary to do so.
When you think about it, it is extremely sad that so many Christians have been trapped into the Calvinistic mode of interpretation. It is very similar to brainwashing, since no amount of Scripture can pry them loose from their False Gospel. It becomes a point of pride to persist in error rather than believe the Bible and reject the doctrines of men. As I said earlier, you cannot harmonize Gospel truth with the Five Points of Calvinism.
This is not true.
Am I saved by my confession? No. If I am saved will I confess? Absolutely. This verse is not contrary to what I am saying. It says "if you believe." Where does this belief come from? This is the question Calvinism asks. Arminians say "well, it comes from me! I did it; it was me who chose, me who had faith," And ultimately, brother that leads to self salvation. I'm sure you see that; that if my faith takes it's root in me alone, and we are saved by faith, this means we save ourselves.
Take a look at Romans 10:3. This is what I am afraid some of us are doing today. We are going about trying to make our own righteousness, rather than take shelter under the grace of God.
As for the Romans passage you quoted [my apologies for getting off track]
Confession is a sign of Belief [i.e. faith] Is the tool that saves us. I agree. But all I ask is that we take a step back, and realize where this faith came from; what is its origin? God graced us with faith, and by His grace we are made able to confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord, and we are able to believe that God raised Him from the dead.
Now, when we read about the heart, we must keep in mind all of the verses about the heart the Scriptures give us:
Genesis 6:5
Genesis 8:21
Ecclesiastes 9:3
Jeremiah 17:9
Romans 8:7-8 [even Paul says this within the same book]
1 Corinthians 2:14 [this is one of the most pivotal]
So then, how can this heart confess with the mouth of believe in the heart? It cannot. BUT that is not the end! God gives us a new heart; one that CAN accept Him!
Colossians 1:21-22
Romans 3:24-25
Romans 5:8-9
Philippians 1:29
Titus 2:14
With this new heart, confession can be made that Jesus is Lord, and indeed ability is given to believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead. Then you are able to "Confess salvation unto heaven" or if asked if you are going to be saved, you can indeed say and believe "YES! Yes I am saved! For God has changed my heart, and Christ's blood has atoned for my sins! My Savior lives, so I too live!"
My dear brother, please read Romans 10:12; see how you bolded everything around it? And yet, this verse explains the "whosoever". Not every person ever. But every kind of person ever.
I do not at all trivialize the means by which we are saved; We are not the means, brother. If we are the means, then we have saved ourselves, because this means that our salvation was dependent upon something we did or did not do. And apart from that, the Scriptures tell us that we are not the means;
Ephesians 1:3-4
Philippians 1:29
Titus 3:5-6
1 Corinthians 1:30
Hebrews 13:12
Titus 2:14
The Spirit is the one that gives us faith, and this gift of Grace that saves.
Will we confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord, and say with confidence that we are saved? Yes. Will we believe in our hearts that he was raised from the dead and thus that we have been saved? Yes. But when will we do this? After Christ has changed our hearts, we will do all these things.
I do not trivialize the means, brother; I simply see that [apart from the work of the Spirit] WE are not the means. God is.
Christ. Saves. Sinners.
This then is how the scripture should read:
#1:
Rom 10:9, That if thou shalt be saved, thou shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, and confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,
Rom 10:10, For with the heart man is righteous unto believing and salvation is unto with the mouth confession.
Rom 10:11, For the scripture saith, Whosoever shall not be ashamed believeth on him .
Rom 10:12, For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that have called upon him.
Rom 10:13, For whosoever shall be saved shall call upon the name of the Lord.
(and in Romans 10:13, the theology is more like, Whosoever shall be saved really does not need to call upon the name of the Lord; and it is the same principle with Romans 10:9).
This, however, is how it does read:
#2:
Rom 10:9, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10, For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11, For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12, For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
I suggest you take a strong look at the differences between the scenario you have presented (in #1), and the reality of scripture (in #2): in making the scripture fit your theology you have to basically change the order of things as they are presented in the Bible; and you have unwittingly changed what the Bible says in the realm of your thinking patterns. This is dangerous. What you need to do is to demolish every strong hold and take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.
#1:
Rom 10:9, That if thou shalt be saved, thou shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, and confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,
Rom 10:10, For with the heart man is righteous unto believing and salvation is unto with the mouth confession.
Rom 10:11, For the scripture saith, Whosoever shall not be ashamed believeth on him .
Rom 10:12, For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that have called upon him.
Rom 10:13, For whosoever shall be saved shall call upon the name of the Lord.
(and in Romans 10:13, the theology is more like, Whosoever shall be saved really does not need to call upon the name of the Lord; and it is the same principle with Romans 10:9).
This, however, is how it does read:
#2:
Rom 10:9, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10, For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11, For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12, For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
I suggest you take a strong look at the differences between the scenario you have presented (in #1), and the reality of scripture (in #2): in making the scripture fit your theology you have to basically change the order of things as they are presented in the Bible; and you have unwittingly changed what the Bible says in the realm of your thinking patterns. This is dangerous. What you need to do is to demolish every strong hold and take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.
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Here's where you miss it. If I say whoever has blond hair and blue eyes is probably from Northern Europe. It is like saying whoever does these things you list is saved. Because only saved people do these things.
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