The Fire is Now?

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VictoryinJesus

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There is no article, 'the', here in the Greek, so - 'with Holy Spirit and fire', is intended: ie., 'with Holy Spirit, yes, and burning purifying spirit too'. Not two things but one thing = Judgement!

First want to say I always pay attention to your post and value your input so I truly want to understand how you see it. Agree with the above.

* The contrast is with John's baptism, which was with water, which mingled together the chaff and the wheat. But the new baptism of Christ would not be like that. It would separate the chaff from the wheat by burning it up, as John the Baptist goes on to describe in verse 12 (above).

What you shared about the water ...thank you it is interesting. You said the baptism of Christ separates chaff from the wheat by burning...agree but leads into a question concerning the following...

* The fire in verse 11 (above) and the fire in verse 12 are not the same. In verse 11 it is a figure for purifying and cleansing; and in verse 12 it is a literal fire that is meant.

Purifying and cleansing ...in 11. But then it goes literal fire in 12. Why?

* This is the purging of the floor, and the burning up of the chaff, which John speaks of in verse 12 (above). John foretold it, but Christ shall do it in the day referred to in Isaiah 4 (above).

Purging of the floor...and the burning up of the chaff? Purging of the floor we agree on...where we may see it differently is at the burning up of the chaff. Purging of the floor in getting those in Christ ...the poor, those that mourn ...all the blessed theirs is the kingdom of God which cannot be shaken or moved ready to remain in the land that is theirs ...the (new)earth. Why then does burning up of the chaff then turn to literal fire? literal fire doesn’t come close to what God’s presence does. 2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Consume and destory with the brightness of his coming...1 Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

‘Brightness’ a literal fire? Maybe. No denying the fiery trial that comes is literal but isn’t the fiery trial in God alining tribulations that bring about His will. The tribulation the fire? He created the waster to destory. Wrath that comes upon man because of sin? Acts 26:13-15
[13] At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me. [14] And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. [15] And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.


* 'The Spirit' is the Worker, and 'the fire' denotes His operations, searching, consuming, and purifying. The day of the Lord's coming will be like 'a refiner's fire'.(Malachi 3:1-4). See also Matthew 3:12, Malachi 4:1 and 3:19.

Agree ...again why is the only time you say literal is in the burning of the chaff. Don’t misunderstand literal fire may be ...but what burns and overcomes the flesh is His presence?

* Christ 'fans' to get rid of the chaff. Satan 'sifts' to get rid of the wheat (Luke 22:31).

Isaiah 30:27-30
[27] Behold, the name of the Lord cometh from far, burning with his anger, and the burden thereof is heavy: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire: [28] And his breath, as an overflowing stream, shall reach to the midst of the neck, to sift the nations with the sieve of vanity: and there shall be a bridle in the jaws of the people, causing them to err. [29] Ye shall have a song, as in the night when a holy solemnity is kept; and gladness of heart, as when one goeth with a pipe to come into the mountain of the Lord , to the mighty One of Israel. [30] And the Lord shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of his anger, and with the flame of a devouring fire, with scattering, and tempest, and hailstones.

Amos 9:8-9
[8] Behold, the eyes of the Lord God are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the Lord . [9] For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.

Romans 8:20-21
[20] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, [21] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Literal fire is of the natural and cannot deliver the creation from the bondage of corruption...only the brightness of His coming, The supernatural presence of God can deliver from the bondage of corruption? This world passes away in light and the power of the world to come.

Note here the world to come overcomes this world. Good overcomes evil. Love overcomes hate. Peace overcomes war.
 
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VictoryinJesus

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well, it's the hope I have for myself, fwiw

Love hopes all things even for those most wicked? Ecclesiastes 7:13
[13] Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?
 

VictoryinJesus

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However, at present He is offering His grace to all.


Hebrews 13:9
Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

‘Not with meats’ does He mean it is good the heart be established with grace and not diverse and strange doctrines which has not profited them who have been occupied therein?
 

Waiting on him

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Hebrews 13:9
Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

‘Not with meats’ does He mean it is good the heart be established with grace and not diverse and strange doctrines which has not profited them who have been occupied therein?
I’d rather be overcome by Grace, than all of these strange doctrines.
 

VictoryinJesus

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Jude 1:23-25 KJV
[23] And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. [24] Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, [25] To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Tecarta BibleThe word pulling here in the first sentence is the word everyone refers to as (the rapture)

Greek: ἁρπάζω
Transliteration: harpazō
Pronunciation: har-pad'-zo
Definition: From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away up) pluck pull take (by force).
KJV Usage: catch up (4x), take by force (3x), catch away (2x), pluck (2x), catch (1x), pull (1x).


John 17:15
[15] I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
 

VictoryinJesus

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Psalms 105:30 "Their land brought forth frogs in abundance, in the chambers of their kings.
Psalms 105:31 "He spake, and there came divers sorts of flies, and lice in all their coasts.
Psalms 105:32 "He gave them hail for rain, and flaming fire in their land.

PICJAG.

Judges 15:1-8 But it came to pass within a while after, in the time of wheat harvest, that Samson visited his wife with a kid; and he said, I will go in to my wife into the chamber. But her father would not suffer him to go in. [2] And her father said, I verily thought that thou hadst utterly hated her; therefore I gave her to thy companion: is not her younger sister fairer than she? take her, I pray thee, instead of her. [3] And Samson said concerning them, Now shall I be more blameless than the Philistines, though I do them a displeasure. [4] And Samson went and caught three hundred foxes, and took firebrands, and turned tail to tail, and put a firebrand in the midst between two tails. [5] And when he had set the brands on fire, he let them go into the standing corn of the Philistines, and burnt up both the shocks, and also the standing corn, with the vineyards and olives. [6] Then the Philistines said, Who hath done this? And they answered, Samson, the son in law of the Timnite, because he had taken his wife, and given her to his companion. And the Philistines came up, and burnt her and her father with fire. [7] And Samson said unto them, Though ye have done this, yet will I be avenged of you, and after that I will cease. [8] And he smote them hip and thigh with a great slaughter: and he went down and dwelt in the top of the rock Etam.

Etam(cleft)Meaning: eyrie/aerie (the nest of an eagle or other bird of prey, built in a high inaccessible place)

https://www.bible-history.com/faussets/E/Etam/

Topical Bible: Etam

Jeremiah 49:15-16
[15] For, lo, I will make thee small among the heathen, and despised among men. [16] Thy terribleness hath deceived thee, and the pride of thine heart, O thou that dwellest in the clefts of the rock, that holdest the height of the hill: though thou shouldest make thy nest as high as the eagle, I will bring thee down from thence, saith the Lord .

(Isaiah 2:17-21)

Obadiah 1:2-4
[2] Behold, I have made thee small among the heathen: thou art greatly despised. [3] The pride of thine heart hath deceived thee, thou that dwellest in the clefts of the rock, whose habitation is high; that saith in his heart, Who shall bring me down to the ground? [4] Though thou exalt thyself as the eagle, and though thou set thy nest among the stars, thence will I bring thee down, saith the Lord .

Micah 1:3-9
[3] For, behold, the Lord cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth. [4] And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place. [5] For the transgression of Jacob is all this, and for the sins of the house of Israel. What is the transgression of Jacob? is it not Samaria? and what are the high places of Judah? are they not Jerusalem? [6] Therefore I will make Samaria as an heap of the field, and as plantings of a vineyard: and I will pour down the stones thereof into the valley, and I will discover the foundations thereof. [7] And all the graven images thereof shall be beaten to pieces, and all the hires thereof shall be burned with the fire, and all the idols thereof will I lay desolate: for she gathered it of the hire of an harlot, and they shall return to the hire of an harlot. [8] Therefore I will wail and howl, I will go stripped and naked: I will make a wailing like the dragons, and mourning as the owls. [9] For her wound is incurable; for it is come unto Judah; he is come unto the gate of my people, even to Jerusalem.
 

bbyrd009

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Love hopes all things even for those most wicked? Ecclesiastes 7:13
[13] Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?
Hmm, you frequently make connections that I am just not privy to I guess, I'd have to think about this one. I'm not sure about projecting hope onto any others tbh, that would lead to expectations and then judgement, seems Tomorrow me?
 

VictoryinJesus

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Hmm, you frequently make connections that I am just not privy to I guess, I'd have to think about this one. I'm not sure about projecting hope onto any others tbh, that would lead to expectations and then judgement, seems Tomorrow me?

Depends on who the hope is in...man or God?

Job 26:13-14
[13] By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent. [14] Lo, these are parts of his ways: but how little a portion is heard of him? but the thunder of his power who can understand?

Genesis 3:11
[11] And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

Romans 8:20
[20] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Deuteronomy 32:4-5
[4] He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. [5] They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.

Philippians 2:15-16
[15] That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; [16] Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

Acts 28:20
[20] For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you , and to speak with you : because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
 

bbyrd009

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Depends on who the hope is in...man or God?

Job 26:13-14
[13] By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent. [14] Lo, these are parts of his ways: but how little a portion is heard of him? but the thunder of his power who can understand?

Genesis 3:11
[11] And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

Romans 8:20
[20] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Deuteronomy 32:4-5
[4] He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. [5] They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.

Philippians 2:15-16
[15] That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; [16] Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

Acts 28:20
[20] For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you , and to speak with you : because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
Ok, but now the object has changed, and in a functional way imo, even if I agree with God-in-you
 

Enoch111

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Job 26:13-14
[13] By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent. [14] Lo, these are parts of his ways: but how little a portion is heard of him? but the thunder of his power who can understand?
Genesis 3:11
[11] And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
Romans 8:20
[20] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Deuteronomy 32:4-5
[4] He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. [5] They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.
Philippians 2:15-16
[15] That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; [16] Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.
Acts 28:20
[20] For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you , and to speak with you : because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
Once again,VIJ, you have strung six unrelated Scriptures together.

1. Job 26:13-14
-- God's mighty creative power

2. Genesis 3:11
-- God's knowledge of every thought and intent of the heart

3. Romans 8:20 -- God's curse on creation because of Adam's disobedience

4. Deuteronomy 32:4-5 -- God's absolute righteousness and perfection

5. Philippians 2:15-16 -- Christians as lights in the world

6. Acts 28:20 -- Paul's defense of himself to the Jews in Rome

Now what is someone who is new to Scripture supposed to conclude from this random stringing together of passages from the Bible?
 

VictoryinJesus

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Once again,VIJ, you have strung six unrelated Scriptures together.

1. Job 26:13-14
-- God's mighty creative power

2. Genesis 3:11
-- God's knowledge of every thought and intent of the heart

3. Romans 8:20 -- God's curse on creation because of Adam's disobedience

4. Deuteronomy 32:4-5 -- God's absolute righteousness and perfection

5. Philippians 2:15-16 -- Christians as lights in the world

6. Acts 28:20 -- Paul's defense of himself to the Jews in Rome

Now what is someone who is new to Scripture supposed to conclude from this random stringing together of passages from the Bible?

That anything that promotes vanity run from it, and run to hope(Christ)instead?

Matthew 11:29-30
[29] Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. [30] For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
 

VictoryinJesus

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and um I do not have confident expectations of Adam

Do not have confident expectations in what Adam can do? Or do not have confident expectations of Adam as in there is no hope for Adam? I’m sorry I’m not following. What are your thoughts on Adam?
 

bbyrd009

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Do not have confident expectations in what Adam can do? Or do not have confident expectations of Adam as in there is no hope for Adam? I’m sorry I’m not following. What are your thoughts on Adam?
Ah well I just meant that having expectations of others is maybe not a good idea.
Adam is me, so I try and treat Adam as I would be treated, and have no expectations of others, and try and exceed expectations of myself, under promise and over deliver and all that
 
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VictoryinJesus

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Ah well I just meant that having expectations of others is maybe not a good idea.
Adam is me, so I try and treat Adam as I would be treated, and have no expectations of others, and try and exceed expectations of myself, under promise and over deliver and all that

1 Thessalonians 5:19
[19] Quench not the Spirit.

Hope is in God, yeah?
 
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Lady Crosstalk

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He baptizes with fire.
There is a difference between holy fire and the fire of judgment. The Holy Spirit is often depicted as a descending dove of fire. It does bring judgment but not a physical judgment--just a judgment on sin--placing it on the Cross of Christ. The fire of judgment comes from God as well but it devours physically--ultimately it will "destroy both body and soul" of all who come under condemnation.