The Issue of Calvinism.

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justbyfaith

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I think it is time to lay a bomb to the “free-willers” and those that believe “faith in Jesus precedes salvation/born again.”

The Lord Jesus, by His command, enabled Lazarus to come forth out of the tomb: however, even after having been given life, Lazarus had the option of saying, "I am comfortable here resting, I don't want to get up and walk out of this tomb, I prefer to "go back to sleep".

In such an instance, Lazarus might have gone back to sleep and would have slipped back into death.

There was a crossing point in the situation where Lazarus was half-dead and half-alive...He was enabled to get up and walk out of the tomb to the Lord Jesus, but he had the option of going back to sleep.

This is why I say that the Father drawing a man to Jesus is different from the Father giving a man to Jesus.

When the Father draws a man, he is enabled to make a solid and unhindered decision either for or against Christ.

If or when a man makes that decision, FOR CHRIST, it is that point that was foreknown by the Lord in which the Father gave that man to Christ, from the perspective of time and eternity.

So then, Jesus saying, "Lazarus come forth" was like the Father drawing a man to Christ. Lazarus actually coming forth was like the Father giving Lazarus to Christ, in which Lazarus, laying dead in the grave, made a decision to actually get up and walk out of the grave. Jesus did not move his legs for him.

Much like when the man lame at the pool of Bethesda was told by Jesus to pick up his mat and walk, and his obedience to Jesus' command provided for his healing. Or, when Jesus told the man with the withered hand, "stretch forth thine hand" and his action of stretching it forth was his act of faith by which he appropriated his healing. Or, in the case then Jesus said to Peter to come out to him, walking on the water. If Peter had not actually done the walking, he would have never walked on water. But he was enabled to do so by the Lord's power.

In all three of these instances the Lord told them to do something that was basically impossible to them; and when they believed that they could do it, they found themselves able.

Lazarus had/has an immortal soul. His soul heard the command of Jesus within the tomb and he responded with faith.
 
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Jun2u

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The Lord Jesus, by His command, enabled Lazarus to come forth out of the tomb: however, even after having been given life, Lazarus had the option of saying, "I am comfortable here resting, I don't want to get up and walk out of this tomb, I prefer to "go back to sleep".

In such an instance, Lazarus might have gone back to sleep and would have slipped back into death
.
Is that what happened? You are not being honest!!! Who would want to resist the gift of life?

To God Be The Glory
 

CoreIssue

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There exists a fatal flaw within the argument of the people promoting free will, that is that the creature must choose Christ at some level. For example, the people promoting free will expouse that people "choose to believe" a.k.a. "choose to put their faith in".

Let us start by examining Romans 10:9-13 for indication of "choose to believe". Here are all occurrences of "believe" with adjacent words:

- "shalt believe in thine heart" (Romans 10:9 - no choice indication here)
- "with the heart man believeth unto righteousness" (Romans 10:10 - no choice indication here)
- "Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed" (Romans 10:11 - no choice indication here)

Romans 10:9 does not contain "choose to believe". Romans 10:10 and Romans 10:11 do not contain "choose to believeth".

You're making a negative proof claim. Not valid in law, logic or debate.

Romans 10:9 does not contain "choose to believe". Romans 10:10 and Romans 10:11 do not contain "choose to believeth".

Neither do they say God predestined you to believe.

So your argument works against Calvinism equally.

Romans 10:9-13 New International Version (NIV)
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”a]">[a] 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”b]">[b]

The first is quite clear that belief comes from the heart. No one can believe with part of their heart. You either believe or you do not.

Neither do they say God predestined you to believe.

As the first says belief comes from the heart. You believe or you don't.

So your argument works against Calvinism equally.

Your argument is nonsensical and illogical.

And not perishing if you believe, meaning put your belief and follow per the Greek, is called salvation. It can only be done in freewill or else it is meaningless.
 

justbyfaith

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Is that what happened? You are not being honest!!! Who would want to resist the gift of life?

To God Be The Glory

You may think it isn't possible; but it happens all of the time.

Act 7:51, Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

2Ti 2:24, And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
2Ti 2:25, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
2Ti 2:26, And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

It also happens quite often that when it is time to wake up and a family member tries to wake a man, that he may tell them, "Give me a few more minutes, I don't want to wake up yet...I prefer to sleep."

Many people would rather stay sleeping rather than wake up and be active... and since death is likened to sleep by our Lord and Saviour, I do not see how this would not apply to someone who is being awakened out of sleep...I mean, death.

And something else...by this time rigor mortis had probably set in with Lazarus...it probably took a lot of effort for Lazarus to actually get up and walk out of the tomb...but he did it because of his recognition that Jesus is the Lord.
 
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justbyfaith

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Romans 10:9-13 New International Version (NIV)
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”a]">[a] 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”b]">[b]
In Romans 10:9, a more accurate translation (the kjv) renders it, If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus...

You can mouth the words "Jesus is Lord" all you want but if you think that these are magic words for salvation, you are sadly mistaken.

God wants you to confess the Lord Jesus--that is, His Person, who He is. Jesus said, Whosoever shall confess me before men, I will also confess him before my Father and before the angels.

If you have the wrong Jesus or if you think you are saying the magic words for salvation (i.e. abracadabra "Jesus is Lord"...I'm saved!) then you've missed it.

You must confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus.

The Bible teaches that there is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6); and that, that Lord is the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21).

If you do not confess this Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth, then you are merely trying to "say the magic words" that "Jesus is Lord"...

But there is a difference between that and confessing Jesus Christ of Nazareth as your Lord and Saviour...one is giving lip service in order to get something...the other is the acknowledgement of the eternal God.
 
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CoreIssue

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In Romans 10:9, a more accurate translation (the kjv) renders it, If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus...

You can mouth the words "Jesus is Lord" all you want but if you think that these are magic words for salvation, you are sadly mistaken.

God wants you to confess the Lord Jesus--that is, His Person, who He is. Jesus said, Whosoever shall confess me before men, I will also confess him before my Father and before the angels.

If you have the wrong Jesus or if you think you are saying the magic words for salvation (i.e. abracadabra "Jesus is Lord"...I'm saved!) then you've missed it.

You must confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus.

The Bible teaches that there is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6); and that that Lord is the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21).

If you do not confess this Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth, then you are merely trying to "say the magic words" that "Jesus is Lord"...

But there is a difference between that and confessing Jesus Christ of Nazareth as your Lord and Saviour...one is giving lip service in order to get something...the other is the acknowledgement of the eternal God.


I already use a better translation in English that we speak today.
 

SovereignGrace

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The Lord Jesus, by His command, enabled Lazarus to come forth out of the tomb: however, even after having been given life, Lazarus had the option of saying, "I am comfortable here resting, I don't want to get up and walk out of this tomb, I prefer to "go back to sleep".

In such an instance, Lazarus might have gone back to sleep and would have slipped back into death.

This has to be the sickest post I have ever read in all my days of being on Christian forums. :(
 
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Jun2u

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Jun2u said:
Is that what happened? You are not being honest!!! Who would want to resist the gift of life?

To God Be The Glory

You may think it isn't possible; but it happens all of the time.
Unfortunately, I used the wrong word. The word should have been “rejected.” I'm not making excuses as English is my second language.

Still, your answer above is mixing Oranges with Apples

Anyway, what part of the universe do you live in where dead people that have no life is said to still make decisions???

To God Be The Glory
 
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SovereignGrace

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Jun2u said:
Is that what happened? You are not being honest!!! Who would want to resist the gift of life?

To God Be The Glory


Unfortunately, I used the wrong word. The word should have been “rejected.” I'm not making excuses as English is my second language.

Still, your answer above is mixing Oranges with Apples

Anyway, what part of the universe do you live in where dead people that have no life is said to still make decisions???

To God Be The Glory

Just read Ezekiel 37 and those dry bones willing themselves to life. :rolleyes:o_O:oops::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:o_Oo_Oo_O:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
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justbyfaith

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Actually you are. You reject the Trinity favor of God subdividing himself into different roles.
No; I do not. I believe in the Trinity and I do not see God as subdivided into roles. I see Him as three distinct Persons within the Godhead who are the same Person (God).
 
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justbyfaith

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Jun2u said:
Is that what happened? You are not being honest!!! Who would want to resist the gift of life?

To God Be The Glory


Unfortunately, I used the wrong word. The word should have been “rejected.” I'm not making excuses as English is my second language.

Still, your answer above is mixing Oranges with Apples

Anyway, what part of the universe do you live in where dead people that have no life is said to still make decisions???

To God Be The Glory

Just read Ezekiel 37 and those dry bones willing themselves to life. :rolleyes:o_O:oops::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:o_Oo_Oo_O:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

The Issue of Calvinism.
 

justbyfaith

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The Issue of Calvinism.

The Lord Jesus, by His command, enabled Lazarus to come forth out of the tomb: however, even after having been given life, Lazarus had the option of saying, "I am comfortable here resting, I don't want to get up and walk out of this tomb, I prefer to "go back to sleep".

In such an instance, Lazarus might have gone back to sleep and would have slipped back into death.

There was a crossing point in the situation where Lazarus was half-dead and half-alive...He was enabled to get up and walk out of the tomb to the Lord Jesus, but he had the option of going back to sleep.

This is why I say that the Father drawing a man to Jesus is different from the Father giving a man to Jesus.

When the Father draws a man, he is enabled to make a solid and unhindered decision either for or against Christ.

If or when a man makes that decision, FOR CHRIST, it is that point that was foreknown by the Lord in which the Father gave that man to Christ, from the perspective of time and eternity.

So then, Jesus saying, "Lazarus come forth" was like the Father drawing a man to Christ. Lazarus actually coming forth was like the Father giving Lazarus to Christ, in which Lazarus, laying dead in the grave, made a decision to actually get up and walk out of the grave. Jesus did not move his legs for him.

Much like when the man lame at the pool of Bethesda was told by Jesus to pick up his mat and walk, and his obedience to Jesus' command provided for his healing. Or, when Jesus told the man with the withered hand, "stretch forth thine hand" and his action of stretching it forth was his act of faith by which he appropriated his healing. Or, in the case then Jesus said to Peter to come out to him, walking on the water. If Peter had not actually done the walking, he would have never walked on water. But he was enabled to do so by the Lord's power.

In all three of these instances the Lord told them to do something that was basically impossible to them; and when they believed that they could do it, they found themselves able.

Lazarus had/has an immortal soul. His soul heard the command of Jesus within the tomb and he responded with faith.
 

Enoch111

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I think it is time to lay a bomb to the “free-willers” and those that believe “faith in Jesus precedes salvation/born again.”
Your post is more like a damp squib than a bomb. One sentence from Paul is sufficient to show that you do NOT believe the Bible:
Then he [the keeper of the prison] called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (Acts 16:29-31)
Could the jailer have been saved without FIRST believing on the Lord Jesus Christ? So there goes your theory about which comes first.

God spoke in parables and without a parable He did not speak
Another attempt to misapply Scripture to support a false belief. Why did Jesus speak in parables? Was it to hide spiritual truth from His enemies and detractors, or was it to hide spiritual truth from His disciples? Let the record show -- the Bible record -- that Jesus had a very definite reason for using parables.
MATTHEW 13
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.


It is quite clear from this one passage that the Bible is NOT one great parable to those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Indeed, it was given to the apostles (and by extension to all genuine Christians) "to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven", but for those who choose to be deliberately blind and deaf to the words of Christ, He speaks in parables. And it appears that Calvinists choose to be deliberately blind and deaf to Bible truth.
THE BOMB: “SALVATION AS SEEN IN THE ILLUSTRATION OF THE RAISING OF LAZARUS.”
Lazarus and his sisters were already disciples of Christ, and salvation had ALREADY come to their house. So this is really a very weak illustration of salvation, although it is a very powerful demonstration of the deity of Christ. And many believed on Him because of the raising of Lazarus.

Now it is true that all human beings are born spiritually dead. But that is where THE POWER OF THE GOSPEL UNTO SALVATION becomes a reality. But Calvinists deny (1) the power of the Gospel and (2) the convicting and convicting power of the Holy Spirit to bring spiritual and eternal life to spiritually dead sinners.

Do you literally believe these words of Paul which are Holy Writ?
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Rom 1:16)

How does the Gospel become the power of God unto salvation? The Bible tells us that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (the Gospel) (Rom 10:17). Therefore Peter likens the Gospel to the seed which produces the New Birth (1 Pet 1:23-25):

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the Word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the Word which by the Gospel is preached unto you.

So contrary to what Calvinists teach, the preaching of the Gospel comes first, then saving faith is generated by the Gospel, under the power of the Spirit, and then the New Birth takes place. That's why Peter says "being born again BY the Word of God". And James concurs with Peter: Of his own will begat he us with the Word of Truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. (Jas 1:18)

And the apostle John brings it all together in John 1:12,13:
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

So first comes the believing, then the receiving, then the New Birth.
 
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Mjh29

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The Lord Jesus, by His command, enabled Lazarus to come forth out of the tomb: however, even after having been given life, Lazarus had the option of saying, "I am comfortable here resting, I don't want to get up and walk out of this tomb, I prefer to "go back to sleep".

In such an instance, Lazarus might have gone back to sleep and would have slipped back into death.

So what you are saying is mankind has the power to resist the very commands of God?

Isaiah 55:11

Nope. When Jesus commanded Lazarus to arise, he rose. Because we..... this is going to come as a shock..... are creatures, not gods. It seems we like to fancy ourselves gods in our conversion; we did it, after all; the Bible does not support you god-men view, do you honestly believe that men have the power to resist the very words of God? God spoke the creation into existence!! And you think somehow you can resist this Word? This is what happens when you start by saying "Well, I chose Him!" It morphs and mutates into this bloated, self-indulgence that has no problem claiming it can resist the Word of God. And here's the funny part; you think that if Christ spoke to you in power, and told you 'Believe." that you would be able to say "....No! I have to choose!" What do you think the Savior would say to that? How would you explain you glory-robbing theology to the very God from whom you are robbing? When Jesus speaks and commands, things happen. He told the waves to be still, and the storm stopped.

So what you are saying is; Th power of the Storms, the Power of healing the blind and lame, the power to Speak forth the Dead, all this is no match for the almighty power of man's will. I think we've reversed roles; we have become the gods. Because a god is all powerful; if you can resist the power of God, you must be more powerful than He is.
 
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justbyfaith

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God has given a degree of sovereignty to man.

If He didn't do so, then He is responsible for all of the evil that we see in the world.

But the explanation that I see for evil in the world has to do with man's rebellion after satan: it had to do with a free will choice that was made to rebel against the Lord.

Why would God cause anyone in His creation to rebel, knowing the evil that would be caused by such a thing?

This is where your theology breaks down: the god you serve must be mentally ill or something, to arbitrate the rebellion at the beginning and then to go and die for all of it.

Why would he not have just created things in such a way that there would be no rebellion?

The answer that I have discovered is, that it is a major aspect of love that it must be given freely or else it means nothing. So if God was going to create creatures like Himself, with the capacity to love, He was going to have to risk giving them the ability to either freely give love to Him or else reject Him and withhold love from Him. Those who would not reject Him but love Him would enter into meaningful relationship with Him.

But those who would choose to not love Him would be the catalysts for evil in the Universe that would be created by the Lord.

I find that this is the only plausible explanation for evil in the Universe that even glorifies the Lord.

I find that the Calvinist understanding has a god who is utterly responsible for the evil in the Universe.