The Issue of Calvinism.

SovereignGrace · Mar 24, 2019

justbyfaith said:
You only say that because it defeats your position.

No it doesn’t. Just like a while back they brought an elderly lady in as a stroke alert. They then called a code blue. They started chest compressions, administered IV meds to stimulate her heart and she came back to life. Nothing she did revived her, it was others doing that and she came back to life.

Granted, very few codes make it, as this is the only one I ever saw who left the hospital alive a few days later. The point is this...bringing the dead to life is done by others and not them. It’s not in their will and/or ability to do so. For Lazarus to refuse would be for him to commit suicide, not just slink back into his grave and be re-dead.

But when God quickens the dead, they come to life. The day you can stop the Spirit from bringing the dead to life is the day you can stop the wind from blowing.

SovereignGrace · Mar 24, 2019

Oh, a couple months or so later, this lady passed away.

justbyfaith · Mar 24, 2019

She really wanted to go and be at rest...this is the reason why some who are "raised from the dead" might choose to lay down and die again.

It is very much like if a person is sleeping and the alarm goes off, and they hit the snooze button and go back to sleep. They had the option of waking up; but they decided instead to drift back off into sleep.

Dave L · Mar 24, 2019

justbyfaith said:
God has given a degree of sovereignty to man.

If He didn't do so, then He is responsible for all of the evil that we see in the world.

But the explanation that I see for evil in the world has to do with man's rebellion after satan: it had to do with a free will choice that was made to rebel against the Lord.

Why would God cause anyone in His creation to rebel, knowing the evil that would be caused by such a thing?

This is where your theology breaks down: the god you serve must be mentally ill or something, to arbitrate the rebellion at the beginning and then to go and die for all of it.

Why would he not have just created things in such a way that there would be no rebellion?

The answer that I have discovered is, that it is a major aspect of love that it must be given freely or else it means nothing. So if God was going to create creatures like Himself, with the capacity to love, He was going to have to risk giving them the ability to either freely give love to Him or else reject Him and withhold love from Him. Those who would not reject Him but love Him would enter into meaningful relationship with Him.

But those who would choose to not love Him would be the catalysts for evil in the Universe that would be created by the Lord.

I find that this is the only plausible explanation for evil in the Universe that even glorifies the Lord.

I find that the Calvinist understanding has a god who is utterly responsible for the evil in the Universe.

God created all for his glory, including evil. There is no mercy apart from wrath for sin. Nor righteousness. No goodness. How do you measure God's love apart from the crucifixion? Loving enemies until your heart can no longer give your blood?

CoreIssue · Mar 24, 2019

justbyfaith said:
All liars shall have their part in the lake of fire....and I am no modalist...therefore what you say is a lie.

OK. But you are confusing at times.

Kermos · Mar 24, 2019

Enoch111 said:
And the point is that God demands that men CHOOSE.
...snip

The Lord Jesus said a person does not choose for Jesus, and here are His words:

"You did not choose Me but I chose you" (John 15:16)

With that, Jesus indicated:
- a person does not choose Jesus at any level whatsoever
- the Lord Jesus does the choosing
- He did NOT address about a person choosing among various error doctrines

Joshua tells the Israelites to choose between two error doctrines/false gods (Joshua 24:15).

Moses commands the Israelites to "choose life" after he said "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today" (that is "witness against" not "witness for"), yet Moses did not say to choose God (Deuteronomy 30:19, here is the context Deuteronomy 30:15-20). The Israelites are presented information about blessing versus a curse. Now, expanding to the history we can see the results of curse being imposed on the Israelites, and here are a few: (1) God uses the Assyrians to punish Israel, (2) God uses Nebuchadnezzar to punish Judah, and (3) the Romans ravage Jerusalem (and the Jewish Temple is not there to this day). Amplifying, Moses did NOT command the Israelites to choose the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Now, back to the words of Jesus the Lord and God (John 20:28):

"You did not choose Me but I chose you" (John 15:16)

"He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day." (John 12:48)

Please see "The Lord Jesus Says That Belief/Faith and Choosing Are All God Post".

Kermos · Mar 24, 2019

justbyfaith said:
John 6:28-29 is God's way of telling us that if you are going to insist that you are saved by your works, that the only "work" that will save you would be to simply believe on Jesus Christ and what He did for you on the Cross.
...snip

You attempt to diminish the immeasurable value of the words of the Lord Jesus Christ! Even in your post, you admit that it is a work to believe according to freewill theology, but the scripture states decisively that Belief/faith is not a work of man (see John 6:29 and Ephesians 2:8-9). Here are the robust words of Jesus the Lord, and these words are solid doctrine in the form of a declaration:

"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." (John 6:29)

The work of God is that a person believes in Jesus Christ whom the Father has sent. End of deal. The Lord Jesus left no squiggle room, period.

A person who says or writes that Jesus did not fully mean what Jesus said thus that person rejects the words of Jesus, and here is what the Lord Jesus has to say about His words:

"He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day." (John 12:48)

Please see "The Lord Jesus Says That Belief/Faith and Choosing Are All God Post".

CoreIssue · Mar 24, 2019

Kermos said:
The Lord Jesus said a person does not choose for Jesus, and here are His words:

"You did not choose Me but I chose you" (John 15:16)

With that, Jesus indicated:
- a person does not choose Jesus at any level whatsoever
- the Lord Jesus does the choosing
- He did NOT address about a person choosing among various error doctrines

Joshua tells the Israelites to choose between two error doctrines/false gods (Joshua 24:15).

Moses commands the Israelites to "choose life" after he said "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today" (that is "witness against" not "witness for"), yet Moses did not say to choose God (Deuteronomy 30:19, here is the context Deuteronomy 30:15-20). The Israelites are presented information about blessing versus a curse. Now, expanding to the history we can see the results of curse being imposed on the Israelites, and here are a few: (1) God uses the Assyrians to punish Israel, (2) God uses Nebuchadnezzar to punish Judah, and (3) the Romans ravage Jerusalem (and the Jewish Temple is not there to this day). Amplifying, Moses did NOT command the Israelites to choose the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Now, back to the words of Jesus the Lord and God (John 20:28):

"You did not choose Me but I chose you" (John 15:16)

"He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day." (John 12:48)

Please see "The Lord Jesus Says That Belief/Faith and Choosing Are All God Post".

Now put those verse back into context and read again.

Kermos · Mar 24, 2019

CoreIssue said:
You're making a negative proof claim. Not valid in law, logic or debate.
...snip

The observations I presented about Romans 10:9-13 are truthful, legal, valid, accurate, and legitimate; on the other hand, you violate truth by adding words to Romans 10:9-13 or subtracting words from Romans 10:9-13 scripture (Revelation 22:18-19), and here are your violations of truth:

1) With reference to Romans 10:9, you write "belief comes from the heart"; however, scripture states "believe in your heart". The difference is that (1) you state "comes from", but scripture states "in". A new heart is given by God (John 3:3, John 3:5, Ezekiel 36:26).

2) Since your post is about Romans 10:9-13, it appears that you are applying your final paragraph of "And not perishing if you believe, meaning put your belief and follow per the Greek, is called salvation. It can only be done in freewill or else it is meaningless" to Romans 10:9-13, and it is your final sentence of "It can only be done in freewill or else it is meaningless" which bears no resemblence to the passage of Romans 10:9-13 because:

- "believe in your heart" in Romans 10:9 contains no choice nor freewill indication,

- "with your heart that you believe and are justified" in Romans 10:10 contains no choice nor freewill indication,

- "Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame" in Romans 10:11 contains no choice nor freewill indication.

Just in case your final paragraph was in reference to John 3:16, in John 3:16 there is no choice nor freewill indication. Behold, John 3:16 includes "that who ever believes in Him shall not perish", and the same Lord Jesus who said these words recorded in John 3:16 also said:

"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." (John 6:29)

It is the work of God that a person (the "who" mentioned by Jesus in John 3:16) believes in Jesus whom the Father has sent (as indicated in by Jesus in John 6:29). Don't forget that Jesus said:

"apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5)

There it is plain that a person can not believe without the Lord Jesus Christ, and, the same Lord Jesus said:

"He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day."

It is rejection of the Lord Jesus Christ to not give Him His due glory! Saving faith is for His glory.

Please see "The Lord Jesus Says That Belief/Faith and Choosing Are All God Post".

CoreIssue · Mar 24, 2019

Kermos said:
The observations I presented about Romans 10:9-13 are truthful, legal, valid, accurate, and legitimate; on the other hand, you violate truth by adding words to Romans 10:9-13 or subtracting words from Romans 10:9-13 scripture (Revelation 22:18-19), and here are your violations of truth:

1) With reference to Romans 10:9, you write "belief comes from the heart"; however, scripture states "believe in your heart". The difference is that (1) you state "comes from", but scripture states "in". A new heart is given by God (John 3:3, John 3:5, Ezekiel 36:26).

2) Since your post is about Romans 10:9-13, it appears that you are applying your final paragraph of "And not perishing if you believe, meaning put your belief and follow per the Greek, is called salvation. It can only be done in freewill or else it is meaningless" to Romans 10:9-13, and it is your final sentence of "It can only be done in freewill or else it is meaningless" which bears no resemblence to the passage of Romans 10:9-13 because:

- "believe in your heart" in Romans 10:9 contains no choice nor freewill indication,

- "with your heart that you believe and are justified" in Romans 10:10 contains no choice nor freewill indication,

- "Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame" in Romans 10:11 contains no choice nor freewill indication.

Just in case your final paragraph was in reference to John 3:16, in John 3:16 there is no choice nor freewill indication. Behold, John 3:16 includes "that who ever believes in Him shall not perish", and the same Lord Jesus who said these words recorded in John 3:16 also said:

"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." (John 6:29)

It is the work of God that a person (the "who" mentioned by Jesus in John 3:16) believes in Jesus whom the Father has sent (as indicated in by Jesus in John 6:29). Don't forget that Jesus said:

"apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5)

There it is plain that a person can not believe without the Lord Jesus Christ, and, the same Lord Jesus said:

"He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day."

It is rejection of the Lord Jesus Christ to not give Him His due glory! Saving faith is for His glory.

Please see "The Lord Jesus Says That Belief/Faith and Choosing Are All God Post".

What is your point?

In Calvinism it doesn't matter. We have no free will and no choice in the matter, so why are you trying to persuade us to your thinking?

CoreIssue · Mar 24, 2019

Kermos said:
The observations I presented about Romans 10:9-13 are truthful, legal, valid, accurate, and legitimate; on the other hand, you violate truth by adding words to Romans 10:9-13 or subtracting words from Romans 10:9-13 scripture (Revelation 22:18-19), and here are your violations of truth:

1) With reference to Romans 10:9, you write "belief comes from the heart"; however, scripture states "believe in your heart". The difference is that (1) you state "comes from", but scripture states "in". A new heart is given by God (John 3:3, John 3:5, Ezekiel 36:26).

2) Since your post is about Romans 10:9-13, it appears that you are applying your final paragraph of "And not perishing if you believe, meaning put your belief and follow per the Greek, is called salvation. It can only be done in freewill or else it is meaningless" to Romans 10:9-13, and it is your final sentence of "It can only be done in freewill or else it is meaningless" which bears no resemblence to the passage of Romans 10:9-13 because:

- "believe in your heart" in Romans 10:9 contains no choice nor freewill indication,

- "with your heart that you believe and are justified" in Romans 10:10 contains no choice nor freewill indication,

- "Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame" in Romans 10:11 contains no choice nor freewill indication.

Just in case your final paragraph was in reference to John 3:16, in John 3:16 there is no choice nor freewill indication. Behold, John 3:16 includes "that who ever believes in Him shall not perish", and the same Lord Jesus who said these words recorded in John 3:16 also said:

"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." (John 6:29)

It is the work of God that a person (the "who" mentioned by Jesus in John 3:16) believes in Jesus whom the Father has sent (as indicated in by Jesus in John 6:29). Don't forget that Jesus said:

"apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5)

There it is plain that a person can not believe without the Lord Jesus Christ, and, the same Lord Jesus said:

"He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day."

It is rejection of the Lord Jesus Christ to not give Him His due glory! Saving faith is for His glory.

Please see "The Lord Jesus Says That Belief/Faith and Choosing Are All God Post".

Negative proofs and arguments remain invalid.

What is with Calvinists always trying to tell others what others think and believe?

CoreIssue · Mar 24, 2019

I will add if you do not believe in your heart love cannot come from your heart.

This is as bad as arguing the belief of Christ in the KJV versus belief in Christ and other translations.

Nobody has the belief of Christ. We can only believe in him.

So your semantical argument is nonsense.

Jun2u · Mar 24, 2019

SovereignGrace said:
Just read Ezekiel 37 and those dry bones willing themselves to life.

Yes the Valley of Dry Bones or the Valley of Corps.

Good insight.

To God Be The Glory

CoreIssue · Mar 24, 2019

Jun2u said:
Yes the Valley of Dry Bones or the Valley of Corps.

Good insight.

To God Be The Glory

Horrible understanding of the Bible.

Jun2u · Mar 24, 2019

Enoch111 said:
Could the jailer have been saved without FIRST believing on the Lord Jesus Christ? So there goes your theory about which comes first.

Salvation belongs to God. The jailer and like the thief on the cross were already being drawn by the Father in John 6:44.

Enoch111 said:
Another attempt to misapply Scripture to support a false belief.

I beg to differ. It is you who misapply Scripture as shown in many of your posts in these forums.

You’re merely echoing to what I’ve already alluded to in Mark 4. You can’t comprehend dialogues let alone comprehend Scripture.

Enoch111 said:
Lazarus and his sisters were already disciples of Christ,

I repeat, you do NOT know how to comprehend Scripture let alone comprehend dialogues. The raising of Lazarus is not about Lazarus and his sisters, rather about the distinction between his physical condition, versus the spiritual condition of mankind. Comprehend the gist now?

Enoch111 said:
And the apostle John brings it all together in John 1:12,13:

I repeat, you do NOT know how to comprehend Scripture let alone comprehend dialogues. The raising of Lazarus is not about Lazarus and his sisters, rather about the distinction between his physical condition, versus the spiritual condition of mankind. Comprehend the gist now?

Enoch111 said:
So first comes the believing, then the receiving, then the New Birth.

ERROR! First comes the drawing of the Father… that is, predestination, election, choosing, and naming of His children before the foundation of the world, and then, simultaneously with the New Birth (born again).

Please carefully read again “Salvation as seen in the raising of Lazarus!” You may still get the gist.

To God Be The Glory

justbyfaith · Mar 24, 2019

God has given a degree of sovereignty to man.

If He didn't do so, then He is responsible for all of the evil that we see in the world.

But the explanation that I see for evil in the world has to do with man's rebellion after satan: it had to do with a free will choice that was made to rebel against the Lord.

Why would God cause anyone in His creation to rebel, knowing the evil that would be caused by such a thing?

This is where your theology breaks down: the god you serve must be mentally ill or something, to arbitrate the rebellion at the beginning and then to go and die for all of it.

Why would he not have just created things in such a way that there would be no rebellion?

The answer that I have discovered is, that it is a major aspect of love that it must be given freely or else it means nothing. So if God was going to create creatures like Himself, with the capacity to love, He was going to have to risk giving them the ability to either freely give love to Him or else reject Him and withhold love from Him. Those who would not reject Him but love Him would enter into meaningful relationship with Him.

But those who would choose to not love Him would be the catalysts for evil in the Universe that would be created by the Lord.

I find that this is the only plausible explanation for evil in the Universe that even glorifies the Lord.

I find that the Calvinist understanding has a god who is utterly responsible for the evil in the Universe.

justbyfaith · Mar 24, 2019

On one side of the issue, so-called Christians are arguing that a man does not need to receive Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour in order to be saved.

On the other side, Christians who desire the salvation of others are exalting the means that God has prescribed by which every man must be saved.

Now when this turns into an argument among people who claim Christ as Saviour, the name of Christ is thereby dragged through the mud.

So I exhort the Calvinist to be an evangelist to the unbeliever concerning the gospel, setting forth what a man must do to be saved; instead of seeking to convince believers who know better that you don't really have to do a and b in order to accomplish c.

Kermos · Mar 25, 2019

CoreIssue said:
Now put those verse back into context and read again.

Here are the verses in context:

The Lord Jesus said a person does not choose for Jesus, and here are His words:

"You did not choose Me but I chose you" (John 15:16)

With that, Jesus indicated:
- a person does not choose Jesus at any level whatsoever
- the Lord Jesus does the choosing
- He did NOT address about a person choosing among various error doctrines

Joshua tells the Israelites to choose between two error doctrines/false gods (Joshua 24:15).

Moses commands the Israelites to "choose life" after he said "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today" (that is "witness against" not "witness for"), yet Moses did not say to choose God (Deuteronomy 30:19, here is the context Deuteronomy 30:15-20). The Israelites are presented information about blessing versus a curse. Now, expanding to the history we can see the results of curse being imposed on the Israelites, and here are a few: (1) God uses the Assyrians to punish Israel, (2) God uses Nebuchadnezzar to punish Judah, and (3) the Romans ravage Jerusalem (and the Jewish Temple is not there to this day). Amplifying, Moses did NOT command the Israelites to choose the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Now, back to the words of Jesus the Lord and God (John 20:28):

"You did not choose Me but I chose you" (John 15:16)

"He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day." (John 12:48)

Please see "The Lord Jesus Says That Belief/Faith and Choosing Are All God Post".

Kermos · Mar 25, 2019

CoreIssue said:
Negative proofs and arguments remain invalid.
...snip

It sure sounds to me like you are trying desperately to invalidate scripture.

The observations I presented about Romans 10:9-13 are truthful, logical, legal, valid, accurate, and legitimate; on the other hand, you violate truth by adding words to Romans 10:9-13 or subtracting words from Romans 10:9-13 scripture (Revelation 22:18-19), and here is the link to "The Accurate Presentation of Romans 10:9-13 Post".

Behold, the Lord Jesus said:

"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." (John 6:29)

"apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5)

"You did not choose Me but I chose you" (John 15:16)

"He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day."

It is rejection of the Lord Jesus Christ to not give Him His due glory! Saving faith is for His glory.

Please see "The Lord Jesus Says That Belief/Faith and Choosing Are All God Post".

Kermos · Mar 25, 2019

CoreIssue said:
I will add if you do not believe in your heart love cannot come from your heart.

This is as bad as arguing the belief of Christ in the KJV versus belief in Christ and other translations.

Nobody has the belief of Christ. We can only believe in him.

So your semantical argument is nonsense.

You appear to be arguing in circles. You are not presenting scripture, rather you are presenting your point of view. In the absence of supporting scripture, you presented your interpretation that man either has a free will or that man makes a choice to salvation.

Romans 9:13 states "believe in your heart" (see the "The Accurate Presentation of Romans 10:9-13 Post"). Praise the Lord Jesus Christ for the gift of the new heart give to us believers (John 3:3, John 3:5, Ezekiel 36:26), so that we believers love the Lord our God with all our heart, and with all our soul, and with all our mind as well as love our neighbors as ourself. (Matthew 22:36-40). This is true, and the Lord Jesus said:

"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." (John 6:29)

The work of God is that a person believes in Jesus Christ whom the Father has sent. End of deal. The Lord Jesus left no squiggle room, period.

A person who says or writes that Jesus did not fully mean what Jesus said thus that person rejects the words of Jesus, and here is what the Lord Jesus has to say about His words:

"He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day." (John 12:48)

Please see "The Lord Jesus Says That Belief/Faith and Choosing Are All God Post".

The Issue of Calvinism.

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