(treeoflife;54716)
You are talking apples and oranges. Praying with others, and asking prayers from others who are conscious and aware (very much alive), having a will of their own and being able to agree or disagree... is not the same as talking to people who are dead. Can you show me where in God's Word Paul or any other saint prayed to another dead saint, asking for prayer?Personally, since I was never taught to pray to dead saints from God's Word, I find the practice terribly self-serving, deceptive... and a terrible waste of time. First of all... are those who pray to dead saints not assuming that the dead saint even agrees with you in order to pray for or with you? Second, why would they pray if they are in God's presents? To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8). What if, given an actual sensible response from a dead saint, he or she disagreed with our request in prayer, and wanted to give us advice on praying for something different or closer to the heart of God? A normal responsive (living) person could do this. But, we are left to assume that all the dead saints we pray to just agree with whatever comes out of our hearts, and away it goes before the thrown of God?
Romans 8:26-30Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
So, are saints all knowing, as God's Spirit is all knowing? He knoweth our hearts... and knows what we should pray for, and if we do as we ought or not. God is all knowing. Are dead saints also all knowing as God? On Earth we can pray for eachother, and try to agree, because none of us are all knowing. Would a saint, unless they are all knowing, bring a prayer directly before God in heaven, if they do not know with absolute certainty of it's fruitfulness? I would not suggest they would or could, because this carries other requirements that dead saints do not meet... besides not being all knowing. Furthermore, saints do not intercede for other saints in heaven... Jesus does that.Furthermore, besides being all knowing, in order to pray to dead saints... not only would a sincere and true response require that they be all knowing (able to know our hearts completely), but it would be absolutely required that they also be omnipresent (all places at all times, just like God), and can hear our prayers just as God can. Are you saying that the saints past are omnipresent like God is? God can hear our prayers because He is all powerful, all knowing, and ever present. God is the only One Who is at all places at all times. Satan himself is also not omnipresent. Only God is, because only God is the Creator and only our God has the power and nature to do so. Angels can't be everywhere at once... they must be sent (Luke 1:26). As you may recall from Job, Satan himself must also follow suit. We will be as angels in heaven, when we are dead (Mark 12:25). We do not become omnipresent when we die. Or, can you show me from God's Word that we are omnipresent when we go in the His presence, when we die? What will it be like to worship Him when we are omnipresent, I wonder... Maybe He really meant it when we are to "worship AROUND His thrown." ???
If we would attain our rituals from the requests and commands God gives us in His Word, we would not be lead astray. We will all agree when we sincerely consider His commands, above rituals and practices created by men. Every prayer that has ever been offered to a saint past, has been useless and fallen by the way side... accept if God, in His mercy, were to listen to the prayer Himself.I find the praying to saints to be nothing short of self-serving, puffed up ritual taught by men... designed to elevate the power of men above what ought to be, while at the same time pulling our hearts away from a direct, personal, and sincere relationship with our God and Father, Maker of all things, Who desires to commune with us.In short, I find the act of praying to saints to be a lie from the pit of hell.
When Paul asked others to pray for him, did he know whether they would agree with him or not? When we ask others to pray for us over the Internet, by letter or whatever other means than by direct personal request, how can we know whether they will agree with us?They are free not to pray for us as we request. The Saints in heaven are free not to pray for us as we request. The situation is no different. We do not
order a Saint to pray for me. We ask.(treeoflife;54716)
I find the praying to saints to be nothing short of self-serving, puffed up ritual taught by men... designed to elevate the power of men above what ought to be, while at the same time pulling our hearts away from a direct, personal, and sincere relationship with our God and Father, Maker of all things, Who desires to commune with us.In short, I find the act of praying to saints to be a lie from the pit of hell.
You say that, but provide no evidence for it. Why is it self serving to ask anyone alive alive in heaven to pray for us, but it is
not self serving to ask someone who is alive on earth to pray for us?You seem to be making a distinction but cannot say why there is a difference.