Praying to saints past?

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treeoflife

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Should we (Christians, knowing Christ, washed by His blood, given open access to the thrown of grace by His Gift), be praying to or through other believers who have died?I say other believers who have died, because by God's Word, all believers are called saints. When Paul addressed the church, his epistles addressed the church body as *saints*. There is nothing more special about Paul, or Peter, or John, as far as sainthood goes... more than my saved great grandmother (or me, or you the believer). The problem in defining a saint, which stems from a church (namely, the Catholic church) that tried to define a saint outside of God's Word, and created a system by which a saint is named. Now, how a church *recognizes* a certain person as a saint, or consequently how a dictionary *defines* a saint, really means nothing. The question for us should be, "What does God's Word say a saint is?" And, "Should we pray to a saint?" Paul addressed those saved, in the churches, as saints, and so we are saints. That is what a saint is. It isn't what the dictionary says, it is what God's Word says. All believers are saints, right now.Therefore, if we are going to pray to Paul (as a named saint), and John (a named saint), or any other named saint... we should also pray to my dead great grandmother, who is also a saint. But, not my great grandmother only... but countless others who were washed by the blood of Christ, being made saints of God, and have sense gone into His presence.What I want to know, is where is the scriptural evidence for praying to saints, and why is it done according to God's Word? The entire New Testiment that we have in Christ, both His Words and the words of the apostles are clear... He is God, and WE ALL are His saints. This being the case, I am not opening this discussion w/ Bible quotes of my own. I will let those who think God's Word supports praying to "saints" start first. This is a serious matter of contention, and it would do all of us saints good have have it resolved, if at all possible.
 

winsome

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Should we (Christians, knowing Christ, washed by His blood, given open access to the thrown of grace by His Gift), be praying to or through other believers who have died?I say other believers who have died, because by God's Word, all believers are called saints. When Paul addressed the church, his epistles addressed the church body as *saints*. There is nothing more special about Paul, or Peter, or John, as far as sainthood goes... more than my saved great grandmother (or me, or you the believer). The problem in defining a saint, which stems from a church (namely, the Catholic church) that tried to define a saint outside of God's Word, and created a system by which a saint is named. Now, how a church *recognizes* a certain person as a saint, or consequently how a dictionary *defines* a saint, really means nothing. The question for us should be, "What does God's Word say a saint is?" And, "Should we pray to a saint?" Paul addressed those saved, in the churches, as saints, and so we are saints. That is what a saint is. It isn't what the dictionary says, it is what God's Word says. All believers are saints, right now.Therefore, if we are going to pray to Paul (as a named saint), and John (a named saint), or any other named saint... we should also pray to my dead great grandmother, who is also a saint. But, not my great grandmother only... but countless others who were washed by the blood of Christ, being made saints of God, and have sense gone into His presence.What I want to know, is where is the scriptural evidence for praying to saints, and why is it done according to God's Word? The entire New Testiment that we have in Christ, both His Words and the words of the apostles are clear... He is God, and WE ALL are His saints. This being the case, I am not opening this discussion w/ Bible quotes of my own. I will let those who think God's Word supports praying to "saints" start first. This is a serious matter of contention, and it would do all of us saints good have have it resolved, if at all possible.
Indeed all believers are saints (small “s”). 1. Catholics believe that when we die there is an immediate individual judgement and the soul of the dead person goes either to heaven, to hell, or exists temporarily in a state called Purgatory. Let’s not get into an argument about Purgatory in this thread please. Can we just stick to the praying to those who have died.2. Regarding praying to those who have died. We are using the word pray in the sense of asking for their prayers and intercession. Some Christians have problems with this because (for their own purposes) they have defined pray solely in terms of addressing God. 3. The Church, after very careful examination of their lives, and of any miracles attributed to them, has determined that some of those who have died are in heaven. These are called Canonised Saints, or just Saints with a capital “S”. As to others who have died we do not know for sure where their souls are. 4. We believe it is both reasonable and scriptural to ask those who are in heaven to pray for us and intercede for us.5. Therefore it is reasonable to pray to those who are sure are in heaven – the Canonised Saints. I mean no disrespect to your great grandmother but I cannot be sure that she is in heaven and therefore would not pray to her to ask for her prayers.
 

Christina

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I know this is not going to be a popular answer with our catholic friends but my duty is to give you the Biblical answer not a denominational one. So you can do as you please but the Bible teaches against this practice. Since Jesus Christ is the mediator between the two parties I can go through Jesus to God. Why else is Jesus called the great high priest in Hebrews 4:14-16? Since I can go through the Son of God, why would anyone think we can go through a sinful dead individual?also the following Scriptures which forbid talking with the dead: Deuteronomy 18:11; 1 Samuel 28:1-25; 1 Chronicles 10:13-14; Isaiah 8:19.The Bible nowhere instructs believers in Christ to pray to anyone other than God. The Bible nowhere encourages, or even mentions, believers asking individuals in Heaven for their prayers. Why, then, do many Catholic pray to Mary and/or the saints, or request their prayers? Catholics view Mary and saints as "intercessors" before God. They believe that a saint, who is glorified in Heaven, has more "direct access" to God than we do. Therefore, if a saint delivers a prayer to God, it is more effective than us praying to God directly. This concept is blatantly unbiblical. Hebrews 4:16 tells us that we, believers here on earth, can "...approach the throne of grace with confidence..." 1 Timothy 2:5 declares, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." There is no one else that can mediate with God for us. If Jesus is the ONLY mediator, that indicates Mary and saints cannot be mediators. They cannot mediate our prayer requests to God. Further, the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ Himself is interceding for us before the Father, "Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them" (Hebrews 7:25). With Jesus Himself interceding for us, why would we need Mary or the saints to intercede for us? Who would God listen to more closely than His Son? Romans 8:26-27 describes the Holy Spirit interceding for us. With the 2nd and 3rd members of the Trinity already interceding for us before the Father in Heaven, what possible need could there be to have Mary or the saints interceding for us?Catholics argue that praying to Mary and the saints is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for you. Let us look at this claim. (1) The Apostle Paul asks other Christians to pray for him in Ephesians 6:19. Many Scriptures describe believers praying for one another (2 Corinthians 1:11; Ephesians 1:16; Philippians 1:19; 2 Timothy 1:3). The Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in Heaven to pray for them. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in Heaven praying for anyone on earth. (2) The Bible gives absolutely no indication that Mary or the saints can hear our prayers. Mary and the saints are not omniscient. Even glorified in Heaven, they are still finite beings with limitations. How could they possibly hear the prayers of millions of people? Whenever the Bible mentions praying to or speaking with the dead, it is in the context of sorcery, witchcraft, necromancy, and divination - activities the Bible strongly condemns (Leviticus 20:27; Deuteronomy 18:10-13). The one instance when a "saint" is spoken to, Samuel in 1 Samuel 28:7-19, Samuel was not exactly happy to be disturbed. It is plainly clear that praying to Mary or the saints is completely different from asking someone here on earth to pray for you. One has a strong Biblical basis, the other has no Biblical basis whatsoever.Then there is the fact God does not answer prayers based on who is praying. He answers prayers based on the spiritual state of the persons heart which ONLY HE CAN JUDGE God answers prayers based on whether they are asked according to His will (1 John 5:14-15). There is absolutely no basis or need to pray to anyone other than God alone. There is no basis for asking those who are in Heaven to pray for us. Only God can hear our prayers. Only God can answer our prayers. No one in Heaven has any greater access to God's throne that we do through prayer (Hebrews 4:16).
 

winsome

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Kriss,You have made several different points here. Let me try and separate them and discuss them one at a time.1. Speaking to the dead(kriss;54518)
also the following Scriptures which forbid talking with the dead: Deuteronomy 18:11; 1 Samuel 28:1-25; 1 Chronicles 10:13-14; Isaiah 8:19.; 1 Chronicles 10:13-14; Isaiah 8:19.Whenever the Bible mentions praying to or speaking with the dead, it is in the context of sorcery, witchcraft, necromancy, and divination - activities the Bible strongly condemns (Leviticus 20:27; Deuteronomy 18:10-13). The one instance when a "saint" is spoken to, Samuel in 1 Samuel 28:7-19, Samuel was not exactly happy to be disturbed. It is plainly clear that praying to Mary or the saints is completely different from asking someone here on earth to pray for you. One has a strong Biblical basis, the other has no Biblical basis whatsoever.
The first point to make is that God does not forbid us speaking to the dead.On Mount Tabor Jesus spoke with Moses and ElijahSuddenly there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him (Mt 17:3)And there appeared to them Elijah with Moses, who were talking with Jesus. (Mk 9:4)Suddenly they saw two men, Moses and Elijah, talking to him. (Lk 9:30)The second point is that in all the instances you quote are from the Old Testament when heaven was shut. The souls of those who had died were therefore not in heaven, before the throne of grace. They could not therefore intercede for anyone.The third point is that in each instance you quote the person was consulting the dead, seeking an oracle. This is very different from the situation with the Saints. They are alive (not asleep like Samuel) in heaven (nor Sheol) and are part of the living body of Christ. We do not seek prophecy from them. The Catholic Church today still forbids all such use of mediums, spiritualist or any other method of conjuring up spirits from the dead, for we do not know what spirits we are dealing with.Our asking the Saints, alive in heaven, for their prayers is therefore not comparable to the conjuring up of spirits from the dead, and consulting them for information that was banned in the OT.
 

Christina

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Kriss,You have made several different points here. Let me try and separate them and discuss them one at a time.1. Speaking to the deadThe first point to make is that God does not forbid us speaking to the dead.On Mount Tabor Jesus spoke with Moses and ElijahSuddenly there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him (Mt 17:3)And there appeared to them Elijah with Moses, who were talking with Jesus. (Mk 9:4)Suddenly they saw two men, Moses and Elijah, talking to him. (Lk 9:30)The second point is that in all the instances you quote are from the Old Testament when heaven was shut. The souls of those who had died were therefore not in heaven, before the throne of grace. They could not therefore intercede for anyone.The third point is that in each instance you quote the person was consulting the dead, seeking an oracle. This is very different from the situation with the Saints. They are alive (not asleep like Samuel) in heaven (nor Sheol) and are part of the living body of Christ. We do not seek prophecy from them. The Catholic Church today still forbids all such use of mediums, spiritualist or any other method of conjuring up spirits from the dead, for we do not know what spirits we are dealing with.Our asking the Saints, alive in heaven, for their prayers is therefore not comparable to the conjuring up of spirits from the dead, and consulting them for information that was banned in the OT.
Thanks for your veiw Winsome I understand this is the veiw of the church and you are saying it is not forbidden in scripture. But it is not taught in scripture either as 1 Timothy 2:5 declares, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." So I can not agree with you. We have a doctrinal difference herewe will never agree on. So I think the best we can do is agree to disagree here.
 

winsome

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Thanks for your veiw Winsome I understand this is the veiw of the church and you are saying it is not forbidden in scripture. But it is not taught in scripture either as 1 Timothy 2:5 declares, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." So I can not agree with you. We have a doctrinal difference herewe will never agree on. So I think the best we can do is agree to disagree here.
Hi kriss,At least we can agree then that praying to the saints is not forbidden in scripture. As regards being taught in scripture and Christ’s mediation that is a different matter. Regarding not being taught in scripture, silence on this matter does not mean it is wrong. However I do believe there is scriptural justification for praying to Saints in heave. But I will come to that later. First the matter of Christ as sole mediator.I will tackle this as the second point you made in your original comments.2. Christ is the one mediator(kriss;54518)
Since Jesus Christ is the mediator between the two parties I can go through Jesus to God. Why else is Jesus called the great high priest in Hebrews 4:14-16? Since I can go through the Son of God, why would anyone think we can go through a sinful dead individual?1 Timothy 2:5 declares, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." There is no one else that can mediate with God for us. If Jesus is the ONLY mediator, that indicates Mary and saints cannot be mediators. They cannot mediate our prayer requests to God. Further, the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ Himself is interceding for us before the Father, "Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them" (Hebrews 7:25). With Jesus Himself interceding for us, why would we need Mary or the saints to intercede for us? Who would God listen to more closely than His Son? Romans 8:26-27 describes the Holy Spirit interceding for us. With the 2nd and 3rd members of the Trinity already interceding for us before the Father in Heaven, what possible need could there be to have Mary or the saints interceding for us?
Firstly the Saints in heaven are not sinful since they are fully perfect and sanctified, otherwise they would not be in heaven. They are not dead but alive in heaven. Secondly Jesus Christ is the one mediator. But the logic of your argument is therefore that we should not be asking anyone else to pray for us. Also that Paul was wrong to ask others to pray for him as in:(kriss;54518)
(1) The Apostle Paul asks other Christians to pray for him in Ephesians 6:19. Many Scriptures describe believers praying for one another (2 Corinthians 1:11; Ephesians 1:16; Philippians 1:19; 2 Timothy 1:3).
How is it right to ask for others to pray for us yet to exclude the saints in heaven from those others on the grounds that Jesus is the one mediator? It is not logical.Also the same logic applies to your comment about asking sinful men to pray for us. I deny the Saints in heaven are sinful. But if you believe that it is wrong to ask sinful people to pray for us, then your argument would invalidate asking anyone else to pray for us and say Paul was wrong in asking others to pray for him.winsome
 

Jordan

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Thanks for your veiw Winsome I understand this is the veiw of the church and you are saying it is not forbidden in scripture.But it is not taught in scripture either as 1 Timothy 2:5 declares, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."So I can not agree with you. We have a doctrinal difference herewe will never agree on.So I think the best we can do is agree to disagree here.
Hi kriss,At least we can agree then that praying to the saints is not forbidden in scripture. As regards being taught in scripture and Christ’s mediation that is a different matter. Regarding not being taught in scripture, silence on this matter does not mean it is wrong. However I do believe there is scriptural justification for praying to Saints in heave. But I will come to that later. First the matter of Christ as sole mediator.I will tackle this as the second point you made in your original comments.2. Christ is the one mediator(Kriss;54518)
Since Jesus Christ is the mediator between the two parties I can go through Jesus to God. Why else is Jesus called the great high priest in Hebrews 4:14-16? Since I can go through the Son of God, why would anyone think we can go through a sinful dead individual? 1 Timothy 2:5 declares, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." There is no one else that can mediate with God for us. If Jesus is the ONLY mediator, that indicates Mary and saints cannot be mediators. They cannot mediate our prayer requests to God. Further, the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ Himself is interceding for us before the Father, "Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them" ([url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Hebrews+7%3A25]Hebrews 7:25[/url]). With Jesus Himself interceding for us, why would we need Mary or the saints to intercede for us? Who would God listen to more closely than His Son? Romans 8:26-27 describes the Holy Spirit interceding for us. With the 2nd and 3rd members of the Trinity already interceding for us
Firstly the Saints in heaven are not sinful since they are fully perfect and sanctified, otherwise they would not be in heaven. They are not dead but alive in heaven. Secondly Jesus Christ is the one mediator. But the logic of your argument is therefore that we should not be asking anyone else to pray for us. Also that Paul was wrong to ask others to pray for him as in:(Kriss;54518)
(1) The Apostle Paul asks other Christians to pray for him in Ephesians 6:19. Many Scriptures describe believers praying for one another (2 Corinthians 1:11; Ephesians 1:16; Philippians 1:19; 2 Timothy 1:3).
How is it right to ask for others to pray for us yet to exclude the saints in heaven from those others on the grounds that Jesus is the one mediator? It is not logical.Also the same logic applies to your comment about asking sinful men to pray for us. I deny the Saints in heaven are sinful. But if you believe that it is wrong to ask sinful people to pray for us, then your argument would invalidate asking anyone else to pray for us and say Paul was wrong in asking others to pray for him.winsomeYour post are disgusting. I see no fruits of Christ... all I see is opinions that can't be backed up with scriptures.There is a major difference between praying for people who is alive physically on Earth and praying to a dead person like Mary.BTW, do you have scriptures to say who is who is in Heaven? I can't wait to hear your reply...
 

winsome

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Your post are dosgusting. I see no fruits of Christ... all I see is opinions that can't be backed up with scriptures.There is a major difference between praying for people who is alive physically on Earth and praying to a dead person like Mary.BTW, do you have scriptures to say who is who is in Heaven? I can't wait to hear your reply...
I am discussing this with kriss.Watch and read the posts.
 

tomwebster

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winsome,If you want a private conversation with Kriss you should PM her. This is not your private forum.
 

Jordan

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Your post are dosgusting. I see no fruits of Christ... all I see is opinions that can't be backed up with scriptures.There is a major difference between praying for people who is alive physically on Earth and praying to a dead person like Mary.BTW, do you have scriptures to say who is who is in Heaven? I can't wait to hear your reply...
I am discussing this with kriss.Watch and read the posts.I take it the fact that you want me to be brainwashed by men. I already wide open... I do know where it is going though... and you still haven't yet given me scriptures to back that up.
 

Christina

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Hi kriss,At least we can agree then that praying to the saints is not forbidden in scripture. As regards being taught in scripture and Christ’s mediation that is a different matter. Regarding not being taught in scripture, silence on this matter does not mean it is wrong. However I do believe there is scriptural justification for praying to Saints in heave. But I will come to that later. First the matter of Christ as sole mediator.I will tackle this as the second point you made in your original comments.2. Christ is the one mediatorFirstly the Saints in heaven are not sinful since they are fully perfect and sanctified, otherwise they would not be in heaven. They are not dead but alive in heaven. Secondly Jesus Christ is the one mediator. But the logic of your argument is therefore that we should not be asking anyone else to pray for us. Also that Paul was wrong to ask others to pray for him as in:How is it right to ask for others to pray for us yet to exclude the saints in heaven from those others on the grounds that Jesus is the one mediator? It is not logical.Also the same logic applies to your comment about asking sinful men to pray for us. I deny the Saints in heaven are sinful. But if you believe that it is wrong to ask sinful people to pray for us, then your argument would invalidate asking anyone else to pray for us and say Paul was wrong in asking others to pray for him.winsome
Hi Winsome The saints are not perfect no one is except Christ they were humans just like the rest of us Many of the Elect will become saints and reign and rule with Christ, but that is not because they were sinless and perfect to claim this diminishes our savior. As he was the Only one who was without sin and Perfect.
 

winsome

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I take it the fact that you want me to be brainwashed by men. I already wide open... I do know where it is going though... and you still haven't yet given me scriptures to back that up.
You mean like you gave scriptures to back up:"There is a major difference between praying for people who is alive physically on Earth and praying to a dead person like Mary."
 

winsome

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Hi Winsome The saints are not perfect no one is except Christ they were humans just like the rest of us Many of the Elect will become saints and reign and rule with Christ, but that is not because they were sinless and perfect to claim this diminishes our savior. As he was the Only one who was without sin and Perfect.
Hi krissI would discuss that point further except it is a diversion. The points I made in my post are valid whether or not we consider the saints in heaven sinful just as men on earth are sinful.Are you going to respond to my points about Christ being the one mediator, or are you accepting that the issue is not relevant to praying to saints in heaven? In which case I will move on the the next point.Let me know
 

Christina

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WinsomeI didnt answer point by point because we are never going to agree for example I said I understand what you are saying that the church teaches praying to the saints is not forbiden. I did not say I agreed with that. I think it is written that this should not be done thats why I brought up the scriptures I did. Your next point was the Saints are perfect....They are not..Only Christ is.There is only one mediator in my opinion
 

winsome

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WinsomeThere is only one mediator in my opinion
I agree there is only one mediator. The point is that does not invalidate asking others to pray for us. If you are saying that Christ being the one mediator does invalidate asking others to pray for us then Paul was wrong to ask others to pray for him.I would say that when we pray for others we are participating in the mediation of Christ. How you consider it is up to you, but you cannot have it both ways. Paul cannot be right to ask others to pray for him but we cannot as others to pray for us (and I'm sure we all do - it's just who we include in those others).
 

treeoflife

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I agree there is only one mediator. The point is that does not invalidate asking others to pray for us. If you are saying that Christ being the one mediator does invalidate asking others to pray for us then Paul was wrong to ask others to pray for him.I would say that when we pray for others we are participating in the mediation of Christ. How you consider it is up to you, but you cannot have it both ways. Paul cannot be right to ask others to pray for him but we cannot as others to pray for us (and I'm sure we all do - it's just who we include in those others).
You are talking apples and oranges. Praying with others, and asking prayers from others who are conscious and aware (very much alive), having a will of their own and being able to agree or disagree... is not the same as talking to people who are dead. Can you show me where in God's Word Paul or any other saint prayed to another dead saint, asking for prayer?Personally, since I was never taught to pray to dead saints from God's Word, I find the practice terribly self-serving, deceptive... and a terrible waste of time. First of all... are those who pray to dead saints not assuming that the dead saint even agrees with you in order to pray for or with you? Second, why would they pray if they are in God's presents? To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8). What if, given an actual sensible response from a dead saint, he or she disagreed with our request in prayer, and wanted to give us advice on praying for something different or closer to the heart of God? A normal responsive (living) person could do this. But, we are left to assume that all the dead saints we pray to just agree with whatever comes out of our hearts, and away it goes before the thrown of God?
Romans 8:26-30Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
So, are saints all knowing, as God's Spirit is all knowing? He knoweth our hearts... and knows what we should pray for, and if we do as we ought or not. God is all knowing. Are dead saints also all knowing as God? On Earth we can pray for eachother, and try to agree, because none of us are all knowing. Would a saint, unless they are all knowing, bring a prayer directly before God in heaven, if they do not know with absolute certainty of it's fruitfulness? I would not suggest they would or could, because this carries other requirements that dead saints do not meet... besides not being all knowing. Furthermore, saints do not intercede for other saints in heaven... Jesus does that.Furthermore, besides being all knowing, in order to pray to dead saints... not only would a sincere and true response require that they be all knowing (able to know our hearts completely), but it would be absolutely required that they also be omnipresent (all places at all times, just like God), and can hear our prayers just as God can. Are you saying that the saints past are omnipresent like God is? God can hear our prayers because He is all powerful, all knowing, and ever present. God is the only One Who is at all places at all times. Satan himself is also not omnipresent. Only God is, because only God is the Creator and only our God has the power and nature to do so. Angels can't be everywhere at once... they must be sent (Luke 1:26). As you may recall from Job, Satan himself must also follow suit. We will be as angels in heaven, when we are dead (Mark 12:25). We do not become omnipresent when we die. Or, can you show me from God's Word that we are omnipresent when we go in the His presence, when we die? What will it be like to worship Him when we are omnipresent, I wonder... Maybe He really meant it when we are to "worship AROUND His thrown." ???
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If we would attain our rituals from the requests and commands God gives us in His Word, we would not be lead astray. We will all agree when we sincerely consider His commands, above rituals and practices created by men. Every prayer that has ever been offered to a saint past, has been useless and fallen by the way side... accept if God, in His mercy, were to listen to the prayer Himself.I find the praying to saints to be nothing short of self-serving, puffed up ritual taught by men... designed to elevate the power of men above what ought to be, while at the same time pulling our hearts away from a direct, personal, and sincere relationship with our God and Father, Maker of all things, Who desires to commune with us.In short, I find the act of praying to saints to be a lie from the pit of hell.
 

winsome

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You are talking apples and oranges. Praying with others, and asking prayers from others who are conscious and aware (very much alive), having a will of their own and being able to agree or disagree... is not the same as talking to people who are dead. Can you show me where in God's Word Paul or any other saint prayed to another dead saint, asking for prayer?Personally, since I was never taught to pray to dead saints from God's Word, I find the practice terribly self-serving, deceptive... and a terrible waste of time. First of all... are those who pray to dead saints not assuming that the dead saint even agrees with you in order to pray for or with you? Second, why would they pray if they are in God's presents? To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8). What if, given an actual sensible response from a dead saint, he or she disagreed with our request in prayer, and wanted to give us advice on praying for something different or closer to the heart of God? A normal responsive (living) person could do this. But, we are left to assume that all the dead saints we pray to just agree with whatever comes out of our hearts, and away it goes before the thrown of God?
Romans 8:26-30Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
So, are saints all knowing, as God's Spirit is all knowing? He knoweth our hearts... and knows what we should pray for, and if we do as we ought or not. God is all knowing. Are dead saints also all knowing as God? On Earth we can pray for eachother, and try to agree, because none of us are all knowing. Would a saint, unless they are all knowing, bring a prayer directly before God in heaven, if they do not know with absolute certainty of it's fruitfulness? I would not suggest they would or could, because this carries other requirements that dead saints do not meet... besides not being all knowing. Furthermore, saints do not intercede for other saints in heaven... Jesus does that.Furthermore, besides being all knowing, in order to pray to dead saints... not only would a sincere and true response require that they be all knowing (able to know our hearts completely), but it would be absolutely required that they also be omnipresent (all places at all times, just like God), and can hear our prayers just as God can. Are you saying that the saints past are omnipresent like God is? God can hear our prayers because He is all powerful, all knowing, and ever present. God is the only One Who is at all places at all times. Satan himself is also not omnipresent. Only God is, because only God is the Creator and only our God has the power and nature to do so. Angels can't be everywhere at once... they must be sent (Luke 1:26). As you may recall from Job, Satan himself must also follow suit. We will be as angels in heaven, when we are dead (Mark 12:25). We do not become omnipresent when we die. Or, can you show me from God's Word that we are omnipresent when we go in the His presence, when we die? What will it be like to worship Him when we are omnipresent, I wonder... Maybe He really meant it when we are to "worship AROUND His thrown." ???
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If we would attain our rituals from the requests and commands God gives us in His Word, we would not be lead astray. We will all agree when we sincerely consider His commands, above rituals and practices created by men. Every prayer that has ever been offered to a saint past, has been useless and fallen by the way side... accept if God, in His mercy, were to listen to the prayer Himself.I find the praying to saints to be nothing short of self-serving, puffed up ritual taught by men... designed to elevate the power of men above what ought to be, while at the same time pulling our hearts away from a direct, personal, and sincere relationship with our God and Father, Maker of all things, Who desires to commune with us.In short, I find the act of praying to saints to be a lie from the pit of hell.
When Paul asked others to pray for him, did he know whether they would agree with him or not? When we ask others to pray for us over the Internet, by letter or whatever other means than by direct personal request, how can we know whether they will agree with us?They are free not to pray for us as we request. The Saints in heaven are free not to pray for us as we request. The situation is no different. We do not order a Saint to pray for me. We ask.(treeoflife;54716)
I find the praying to saints to be nothing short of self-serving, puffed up ritual taught by men... designed to elevate the power of men above what ought to be, while at the same time pulling our hearts away from a direct, personal, and sincere relationship with our God and Father, Maker of all things, Who desires to commune with us.In short, I find the act of praying to saints to be a lie from the pit of hell.
You say that, but provide no evidence for it. Why is it self serving to ask anyone alive alive in heaven to pray for us, but it is not self serving to ask someone who is alive on earth to pray for us?You seem to be making a distinction but cannot say why there is a difference.
 

winsome

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There seems to be a problem here that is fundamental. And that is what happens to the soul at death. There seem to be three options:1. Annihilation - the soul dies and is resurrected with the body. I have not heard any Christian espouse this.2. "Soul Sleep" - the souls "sleeps until the resurrection. I know some Christians believe this but most don't and it's not biblical.3. The soul is alive in heaven (or hell, but we are considering saints). I think most Christians believe this, but some are unwilling to accept the implications of it.Catholics (and others) believe that those who have died in God's love and friendship will be alive in heaven. We believe in the communion of saints. We are all part of the one body of Christ. Are those alive in heaven not part of the body of Christ?“For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Rom 8:38-39)“For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For in the one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.” (1 Cor 12:12-13)When they died to this life they did not cease to exist, their souls did not cease to be one with Christ, to be part of his body.
 

treeoflife

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(winsome;54720)
When Paul asked others to pray for him, did he know whether they would agree with him or not? When we ask others to pray for us over the Internet, by letter or whatever other means than by direct personal request, how can we know whether they will agree with us?They are free not to pray for us as we request. The Saints in heaven are free not to pray for us as we request. The situation is no different. We do not order a Saint to pray for me. We ask.You say that, but provide no evidence for it. Why is it self serving to ask anyone alive alive in heaven to pray for us, but it is not self serving to ask someone who is alive on earth to pray for us?You seem to be making a distinction but cannot say why there is a difference.
I did provide evidence. Read my post again, and listen to my reasoning. Nowhere in the Word of God are we told to, asked to, or shown to pray to saints who have died, and gone into the Lord's presence. The burden of proof is on you.Are we omnipresent like God when we die, or are we *like angels* in heaven?
 

winsome

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(treeoflife;54725)
I did provide evidence. Read my post again, and listen to my reasoning. Nowhere in the Word of God are we told to, asked to, or shown to pray to saints who have died, and gone into the Lord's presence. The burden of proof is on you.Are we omnipresent like God when we die, or are we *like angels* in heaven?
Silence in scripture is not proof that we cannot do something. Nowhere is scripture does it say we cannot ask those in heaven to pray for us.Consider this scripture:“When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” (Rev 5:8)Note- they are offering the prayers of the saints - our prayers.If the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
 
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