Seventh Day Adventist Beliefs

mjrhealth said:

See here you are again, your whole life is focused on sin...Isnt the law for sinners... it it all you are here to do comdemn people to death by the law.

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See here the MJRSickness again, one's whole life focused on denying one's own sin... denying and resisting, speaking words of sinners' pride against what the Holy Spirit means and is doing for sinners...
"Convince lost sinners of SIN;
"Convince lost sinners of JUDGEMENT;
"Convince lost sinners of Exclusive RIGHTEOUSNESS":
"THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS".
"Few are chosen", so the 'many' are "already condemned" people—to death by the Law-of-GOD, condemned 'people'!

Enoch111 said:

No. The angels accompany the saints.

The angels do not need robes of righteousness, the fine linen, clean and white, which represents the imputed righteousness of Christ. That is the wedding garment reserved for the saints, not the angels (who are not offered redemption). And it is these saints who descend with Christ. Now please note carefully:

And to her [the Lamb's Wife] was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints... And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (Rev 19:8,14)

I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels. (Isa 61:10)

And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mt 22:11-13)

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The angels only accompany the redeemed back home after they have collected them at the harvest.

historyb said:

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Who? Oh, Mr Know-Of-Boggerol; not pleased to make your acquaintance, thanks.

Enoch111 said:

Well just one verse will show you that the Rapture and the Second Coming are not the same or even simultaneous:

THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they alsowhich pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

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They are the same event and timing. The difference is that those you follow don't understand the gathering by Christ of His Church when He comes. It shows you don't even understand what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about the gathering of the Church.

In 1 Thess.4, Paul spoke of TWO separate groups of saints being gathered. The first group of saints are the 'asleep' saints, those who have already died in Christ. Paul said to not worry about those, because Jesus will bring them with Him when He comes. That means those asleep will be resurrected and Jesus will bring them with Him from... Heaven when He comes.

The second group of saints Paul said are those still alive on earth on that day. Paul said those would be "caught up" in the clouds to meet Jesus at His descending to the earth, thus meaning being joined with the asleep resurrected saints.

And then Zechariah 14 reveals Jesus' feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem on earth, where Acts 1 took place from the spot that He ascended to Heaven from. And it says all the saints come there with Him.

But the doctrine of men you're on, the Pre-tribulation Rapture theory that began in 1830's Britain, it instead teaches that the Church is raptured to Heaven PRIOR to the time of great tribulation, which of course is un-Biblical, but only a doctrine from men preying on the gullible and fearful.

Enoch111 said:

Well just one verse will show you that the Rapture and the Second Coming are not the same or even simultaneous:

THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they alsowhich pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

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I just noticed something in that verse that you didn't underline. Who wails? Kindreds (families) of those who "pierced Him." Jews throughout that last 2000 years that refused to accept their Messiah and died in their sins. Thanks for posting that, but it doesn't show a secret rapture. Wow! I love a day when I spiritually see something I've never discerned before.

NASB Revelation 1:7

Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

KJV

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

NIV

“Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.” So shall it be! Amen.

EHV

Look, he is coming with clouds, and every eye will see him, including those who pierced him. And all the nations of the earth will mourn because of him. Yes. Amen.

Who wails? Kindreds (families) of those who "pierced Him." Jews from the 12 tribes throughout that last 2000 years that refused to accept their Messiah and died in their sins. It is interesting to see how scholars translating different versions see that verse. Some better than others.

Enoch111 said:

Actually there are two groups mentioned in Rev 1:7: (a) the Jews and (b) all the inhabitants of the earth ("kindreds"). And that verse relates to the Second Coming, not the Rapture.

However since Christ comes WITH His saints at this time as noted in other Scriptures (and the saints and angels are metaphorically called "clouds" because that is how they will appear from a distance surrounding Christ) it should be obvious that the saints were in Heaven before Christ descends to earth with them. And they went to Heaven at the Resurrection/Rapture.

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Show me a scripture where the saints coming back with Christ were not just those who sleep, and not alive saints that went to heaven 7 years before. When Christ comes, the dead come back with Christ and his angels, and we who are alive and have remained on earth will be caught up with them at the second coming - not before. Show me. You may learn something in your search to show me.

Kindred are related, not foreigners.

kin·dred
/ˈkindrəd/
noun
noun: kindred
1.
one's family and relations.
synonyms: family, relatives, relations, kin, family members, connections, kith and kin, one's own flesh and blood, clan, tribe, house, lineage

brakelite said:

The saints are the angels.

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Angels are not Saints and Saints are not angels.

CoreIssue said:

Angels are not Saints and Saints are not angels.

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They can be both, for example,
KJV Daniel 8
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
The two speaking with one another here discussing the vision are two angels. Saints.

brakelite said:

They can be both, for example,
KJV Daniel 8
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
The two speaking with one another here discussing the vision are two angels. Saints.

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Daniel 8:13 New International Version (NIV)
13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?”

The King James version is loaded with mistranslations.

Like calling the Angels sons of God. That is an error.

Translating Passover as Easter. Another error.

CoreIssue said:

Daniel 8:13 New International Version (NIV)
13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?”

The King James version is loaded with mistranslations.

Like calling the Angels sons of God. That is an error.

Translating Passover as Easter. Another error.

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שׁדק‭ qodesh ‭ko’– desh‭
‭
‭‭from ‭06942‭; n m; [BDB–871b]‭ ‭{See TWOT on 1990 @@ "1990a"}‭
‭
‭‭AV – holy 262, sanctuary 68, (holy, hallowed,…) things 52, most 44, holiness 30, dedicated 5, hallowed 3, consecrated 1, misc 3; 468‭
‭
‭‭1) apartness, holiness, sacredness, separateness‭
‭‭ 1a) apartness, sacredness, holiness‭
‭‭ 1a1) of God‭
‭‭ 1a2) of places‭
‭‭ 1a3) of things‭
‭‭ 1b) set–apartness, separateness ‭

The OT meaning of"Saint" can be applied to people, and angels and even things. It simply means holy. Or in the context, holy things or holy angels or holy people. Not that we would refer to things and Saints. But you know what I mean. I think you are splitting hairs.
The NT meaning of exactly the same in Greek.

‭ἅγιος‭ hagios ‭hag’–ee–os‭
‭
‭‭from hagos (an awful thing) [cf ‭53‭, ‭2282‭]; adj; TDNT–1:88,14; ‭ ‭{See TDNT 14}‭
‭
‭‭AV–holy 161, saints 61, Holy One 4, misc 3; 229‭
‭
‭‭Holy‭, characteristic of God, separated to God, worthy of veneration‭
‭‭1) Its highest application is to God himself, in his purity, majesty and glory. ‭{#Lu 1:49 Joh 17:11 Re 4:8}‭
‭‭ 1a) Of things and places which have a claim to reverence as sacred to God, e.g. the Temple: ‭{#Mt 24:15 Heb 9:1}‭
‭‭ 1b) Of persons employed by him, as angels: ‭{#1Th 3:13‭ marg.}‭ prophets, ‭{#Lu 1:70}‭ apostles, ‭{#Eph 3:5}‭
‭‭2) Applied to persons as separated to God’s service:‭
‭‭ 2a) Of Christ: ‭{#Mr 1:24 Ac 4:30}‭
‭‭ 2b) Of Christians: ‭{#Ac 9:13 Ro 1:7 Heb 6:10 Re 5:8}‭
‭‭3) In the moral sense of sharing God’s purity: ‭{#Mr 6:20 Joh 17:11 Ac 3:14 Re 3:7}‭
‭‭4) Of pure, clean sacrifices and offerings: ‭{#1Co 7:14 Eph 1:4}‭

brakelite said:

שׁדק‭ qodesh ‭ko’– desh‭
‭
‭‭from ‭06942‭; n m; [BDB–871b]‭ ‭{See TWOT on 1990 @@ "1990a"}‭
‭
‭‭AV – holy 262, sanctuary 68, (holy, hallowed,…) things 52, most 44, holiness 30, dedicated 5, hallowed 3, consecrated 1, misc 3; 468‭
‭
‭‭1) apartness, holiness, sacredness, separateness‭
‭‭ 1a) apartness, sacredness, holiness‭
‭‭ 1a1) of God‭
‭‭ 1a2) of places‭
‭‭ 1a3) of things‭
‭‭ 1b) set–apartness, separateness ‭

The OT meaning of"Saint" can be applied to people,

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Strong's Number: 06918 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
Xwdq from (06942)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Qadowsh TWOT - 1990b
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
kaw-doshe' Adjective

You are applying the wrong word.

Saints are set apart from the rest of humanity. Angels are not set apart from each other. They are angels.

Except for the KJV or a derivative of the KJV, the word saint is not in the Old Testament.

Angels are holy ones. When are humans ever called holy ones on this earth?

Angels are never called saints.






Definition

1. sacred, holy, Holy One, saint, set apart

CoreIssue said:

Angels are never called Saints in the OT

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Despite your splitting hairs over the definition of the word, Jude is still referencing angels in the NT when he mentions the Lord coming with His Saints. They aren't dead people. Dead people are dead. The resurrection doesn't take place until AFTER they get here. It is the angels, those tens of thousands with the Lord, who gather the elect from the four corners of the earth and bring them to Christ. Maybe the KJV does have it wrong in the OT. but in that instance in Jude when it calls angels Saints, whatever they are, they aint people.

Enoch111 said:

You are fighting a losing battle, because of your false doctrine of Soul Sleep. BOTH saints and angels come with Christ as noted II Thessalonians 1.

6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

The saints and angels are clearly separated and identified here at the Second Coming of Christ "when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven...When he shall come to be glorified in his saints".

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Come on Enoch, you know that doesn't say what you want it to say. And you also know that the evidence anyone goes to heaven and is fully Cognizant of who he is, can feel, great, taste, touch, see, without the body which has those senses incorporated, is extremely thin. The resurrection is the Christian hope. If there are some ashtray in heaven and can do all the things we can do now without the body, why a resurrection?

Enoch111 said:

doctrine of Soul Sleep.

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If you don't like it, call it something else. I could suggest something... Death.

1stCenturyLady said:

Show me a scripture where the saints coming back with Christ were not just those who sleep, and not alive saints that went to heaven 7 years before. When Christ comes, the dead come back with Christ and his angels, and we who are alive and have remained on earth will be caught up with them at the second coming - not before. Show me. You may learn something in your search to show me.

Kindred are related, not foreigners.

kin·dred
/ˈkindrəd/
noun
noun: kindred
1.
one's family and relations.
synonyms: family, relatives, relations, kin, family members, connections, kith and kin, one's own flesh and blood, clan, tribe, house, lineage

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1 Thess. 4 shows that 'we that are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet them in the air'.

farouk said:

1 Thess. 4 shows that 'we that are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet them in the air'.

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Yes...and who are the "them"...they who come out of their graves, or they who come, supposedly, from heaven?

brakelite said:

Yes...and who are the "them"...they who come out of their graves, or they who come, supposedly, from heaven?

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Seems to refer to 'the dead in Christ' who 'shall rise first'.