What Did Paul Mean By These Words?

Hidden In Him · Mar 25, 2019

Let me say first off that this is not a set up question where I'm already fully decided on the answer and just want to know what everyone else's opinion is. I am definitely leaning in a certain direction, but the following is an honest inquiry for input.

In Galatians 4:3, Colossians 2:8, and Colossians 2:20, Paul used the expression τῶν στοιχείων τοῦ κόσμου, which as I will show in a second translates into "the principles of the world." What principles was he talking about by this repeated phrase, and why did he refer to them as such?

For starters, about the translation, he uses the phrase in combination with the phrase "the traditions of man" and the word "philosophies" in Colossians 2:8. The reading is "βλέπετε μή τις ὑμᾶς ἔσται ὁ συλαγωγῶν διὰ τῆς φιλοσοφίας καὶ κενῆς ἀπάτης, κατὰ τὴν παράδοσιν τῶν ἀνθρώπων, κατὰ τὰ στοιχεῖα τοῦ κόσμου καὶ οὐ κατὰ Χριστόν" which translates as, "Take heed that there not be anyone making a prey of you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the traditions of man, according to the principles of the world, and not according to Christ." So there is a clear common element to these phrases; all refer in general to false, naturalistic (i.e. humanistic) teachings.

Then he uses just the word "principles" (στοιχεῖα) as a stand alone in Galatians 4:9, "how do you turn again to the weak and beggarly principles to which you again desire to serve anew?," referring back to the full phrase τὰ στοιχεῖα τοῦ κόσμου in Galatians 4:3.

When you take all these things into consideration, the word alone must mean "principles" and the entire phrase means "principles of the world."

So the question again becomes: What principles specifically was he talking about by the use of this repeated phrase, and why did he refer to them as such?

Blessings in Christ. Any and all responses are appreciated.

CoreIssue · Mar 25, 2019

Hidden In Him said:
Let me say first off that this is not a set up question where I'm already fully decided on the answer and just want to know what everyone else's opinion is. I am definitely leaning in a certain direction, but the following is an honest inquiry for input.

In Galatians 4:3, Colossians 2:8, and Colossians 2:20, Paul used the expression τῶν στοιχείων τοῦ κόσμου, which as I will show in a second translates into "the principles of the world." What principles was he talking about by this repeated phrase, and why did he refer to them as such?

For starters, about the translation, he uses the phrase in combination with the phrase "the traditions of man" and the word "philosophies" in Colossians 2:8. The reading is "βλέπετε μή τις ὑμᾶς ἔσται ὁ συλαγωγῶν διὰ τῆς φιλοσοφίας καὶ κενῆς ἀπάτης, κατὰ τὴν παράδοσιν τῶν ἀνθρώπων, κατὰ τὰ στοιχεῖα τοῦ κόσμου καὶ οὐ κατὰ Χριστόν" which translates as, "Take heed that there not be anyone making a prey of you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the traditions of man, according to the principles of the world, and not according to Christ." So there is a clear common element to these phrases; all refer in general to false, naturalistic (i.e. humanistic) teachings.

Then he uses just the word "principles" (στοιχεῖα) as a stand alone in Galatians 4:9, "how do you turn again to the weak and beggarly principles to which you again desire to serve anew?," referring back to the full phrase τὰ στοιχεῖα τοῦ κόσμου in Galatians 4:3.

When you take all these things into consideration, the word alone must mean "principles" and the entire phrase means "principles of the world."

So the question again becomes: What principles specifically was he talking about by the use of this repeated phrase, and why did he refer to them as such?

Blessings in Christ. Any and all responses are appreciated.

Galatians 4:3 New International Version (NIV)
3 So also, when we were underage, we were in slavery under the elemental spiritual forces of the world.

The forces are sin nature and demonic influence.

The archaic language of the 1769 KJV, the one used today, is misleading simply because we don't talk or write that way today.

To illustrate my point 100 years ago to call a man gay meant he was a happy go lucky fellow. Today your calling him a homosexual.

Language changes over time.

Colossians 2:8 New International Version (NIV)
8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

Colossians 2:20 New International Version (NIV)
20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules:

ScottA · Mar 25, 2019

Jesus was the apex of God's salvation plans, the man of Revelations with "one foot on the land and one on the sea", meaning one foot in the natural or in the world, and the other in the spirit. But it was Paul who was primarily commissioned to usher in the age of spirit of God being poured out upon all flesh, foretold by Joel the prophet and confirmed by Peter at Pentecost. The twelve were to take the gospel to the utter most parts of the earth, but stayed close to Jerusalem among the Jews, while Paul took the gospel to the gentiles. Thus, Paul spoke the language of that greatest of transition between the old man of the flesh and the new man of the spirit. It is even said that Paul taught on multiple levels...but that is simply because he was on the cusp of that newness of life.

To the contrary, the twelve were encumbered by the weight of Israel's past, and limited to moping up and prophecies.

Hidden In Him · Mar 25, 2019

CoreIssue said:
Galatians 4:3 New International Version (NIV)
3 So also, when we were underage, we were in slavery under the elemental spiritual forces of the world.

The forces are sin nature and demonic influence.

Colossians 2:8 New International Version (NIV)
8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

Colossians 2:20 New International Version (NIV)
20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules:

Thanks for your reply, CoreIssue. I'm aware of this translation/interpretation. The NIV is followed by a few other versions including the English Standard Version and the New Living Translation, but I think they all missed the ball here. The word στοιχεῖα was used of the planets, but never in the sense of demonic spirits who ruled over those planets, so the evidence is rather weak that this was Paul's intended meaning. It also doesn't seem to fit the context of Colossians 2:8 very well. "Philosophies and deceits, the traditions of men, and the principles of the world" all have a natural ring to them and a commonality of meaning. Philosophies and deceits, traditions of men, and elemental spiritual forces do not, so that translation doesn't seem to fit the context.

Just my take on it, but I'm not convinced the NIV is correct here. The case seems stronger for the readings of "principles" or "rudiments," both of which mean essentially the same thing and are more well-supported by a greater number of translations.

Hidden In Him · Mar 25, 2019

ScottA said:
Jesus was the apex of God's salvation plans, the man of Revelations with "one foot on the land and one on the sea", meaning one foot in the natural or in the world, and the other in the spirit. But it was Paul who was primarily commissioned to usher in the age of spirit of God being poured out upon all flesh, foretold by Joel the prophet and confirmed by Peter at Pentecost. The twelve were to take the gospel to the utter most parts of the earth, but stayed close to Jerusalem among the Jews, while Paul took the gospel to the gentiles. Thus, Paul spoke the language of that greatest of transition between the old man of the flesh and the new man of the spirit. It is even said that Paul taught on multiple levels...but that is simply because he was on the cusp of that newness of life.

To the contrary, the twelve were encumbered by the weight of Israel's past, and limited to moping up and prophecies.

Ok. So what specific principles was he referring to?

CoreIssue · Mar 25, 2019

Hidden In Him said:
Thanks for your reply, CoreIssue. I'm aware of this translation/interpretation. The NIV is followed by a few other versions including the English Standard Version and the New Living Translation, but I think they all missed the ball here. The word στοιχεῖα was used of the planets, but never in the sense of demonic spirits who ruled over those planets, so the evidence is rather week that this was Paul's intended meaning. It also doesn't seem to fit the context of Colossians 2:8 very well. "Philosophies and deceits, the traditions of men, and the principles of the world" all have a natural ring to them and a commonality of meaning. Philosophies and deceits, traditions of men, and elemental spiritual forces do not, so that translation doesn't seem to fit the context.

Just my take on it, but I'm not convinced the NIV is correct here. The case seems stronger for the readings of "principles" or "rudiments," both of which mean essentially the same thing and are more well-supported by a greater number of translations.

I think it fits the context of every verse where the KJV does not.

And you better check the translations, most do not agree KJV.

The NIV is the most read read Bible. The KJV has fallen to third and still dropping.

The problem principles and rudiments is that it does not explain where they came from. Sin nature and demons do.

Spiritual principles and rudiments of what?

All you have done is create more questions.

CoreIssue · Mar 25, 2019

Hidden In Him said:
Ok. So what specific principles was he referring to?

As I said, more questions.

Not give me wrong, most of what Scott says makes no sense.

Enoch111 · Mar 25, 2019

Hidden In Him said:
So the question again becomes: What principles specifically was he talking about by the use of this repeated phrase, and why did he refer to them as such?

While "principles" is one of the meanings of στοιχείων (stoicheiōn), it is the WRONG MEANING in this context. So let's look at those verses in the KJV:

Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: (Gal 4:3)
But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? (Gal 4:9)
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. (Col 2:9)
Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances (Col 2:20)

One of the fundamental principles of Bible interpretation is context. And the context here is (1) spiritual bondage, (2) philosophy, (3) deceitful doctrines, (4) the traditions of men, or the commandments and doctrines of men and (5) ordinances which are designed to show (a) will worship or self-generated worship, (b) false humility, and (c) asceticism.

But one of the other meanings of στοιχείων (stoicheiōn) is elemental spirits, cosmic spirits, or spiritual powers. And a third meaning of στοιχείων (stoicheiōn) is ranking, rows, or series.

This takes us back to the evil spirits which are ranked in hierarchies under Satan, and which are determined to deceive human beings into clinging to false religions and the traditions of men (rituals over substance and asceticism over true spirituality), which is all spiritual wickedness, and brings people into spiritual bondage.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. (Eph 6:12)

So the elements or rudiments are not "principles" but "powers of darkness".

Hidden In Him · Mar 25, 2019

CoreIssue said:
All you have done is create more questions.

Well I'm not trying to "do" anything, LoL. I'm just wanting to get to the bottom of what this expression of Paul's means.

CoreIssue said:
And you better check the translations, most do not agree KJV.

For the sake of letting everyone view it, here are the translations provided at Bible Hub:

New International Version
See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

New Living Translation
Don't let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powers of this world, rather than from Christ.

English Standard Version
See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

Berean Study Bible
See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, which are based on human tradition and the spiritual forces of the world rather than on Christ.

Berean Literal Bible
Take heed lest there will be anyone taking you captive through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the principles of the world and not according to Christ.

New American Standard Bible
See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

King James Bible
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Christian Standard Bible
Be careful that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit based on human tradition, based on the elements of the world, rather than Christ.

Contemporary English Version
Don't let anyone fool you by using senseless arguments. These arguments may sound wise, but they are only human teachings. They come from the powers of this world and not from Christ.

Good News Translation
See to it, then, that no one enslaves you by means of the worthless deceit of human wisdom, which comes from the teachings handed down by human beings and from the ruling spirits of the universe, and not from Christ.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Be careful that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit based on human tradition, based on the elemental forces of the world, and not based on Christ.

International Standard Version
See to it that no one enslaves you through philosophy and empty deceit according to human tradition, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to the Messiah,

NET Bible
Be careful not to allow anyone to captivate you through an empty, deceitful philosophy that is according to human traditions and the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

New Heart English Bible
Be careful not to allow anyone to captivate you through an empty and deceptive philosophy, according to human tradition, according to the elementary principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Beware lest any man rob you by philosophy, or by empty deception, according to the teaching of men and according to the principles of the world and not according to The Messiah,

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Be careful not to let anyone rob you [of this faith] through a shallow and misleading philosophy. Such a person follows human traditions and the world's way of doing things rather than following Christ.

New American Standard 1977
See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

Jubilee Bible 2000
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the traditions of men, according to the elements of the world, and not after Christ.

King James 2000 Bible
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

American King James Version
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

American Standard Version
Take heed lest there shall be any one that maketh spoil of you through his philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ:

Douay-Rheims Bible
Beware lest any man cheat you by philosophy, and vain deceit; according to the tradition of men, according to the elements of the world, and not according to Christ:

Darby Bible Translation
See that there be no one who shall lead you away as a prey through philosophy and vain deceit, according to the teaching of men, according to the elements of the world, and not according to Christ.

English Revised Version
Take heed lest there shall be any one that maketh spoil of you through his philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ:

Webster's Bible Translation
Beware lest any man make a prey of you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Weymouth New Testament
Take care lest there be some one who leads you away as prisoners by means of his philosophy and idle fancies, following human traditions and the world's crude notions instead of following Christ.

World English Bible
Be careful that you don't let anyone rob you through his philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the elements of the world, and not after Christ.

Young's Literal Translation
See that no one shall be carrying you away as spoil through the philosophy and vain deceit, according to the deliverance of men, according to the rudiments of the world, and not according to Christ.

These aren't all the translations of course, but I suppose they could be taken as a representative sample, and the tally here is 8, 17, and 4.
- 8 give the NIV interpretation, 17 give the KJV interpretation, and 4 give the third major interpretation not yet mentioned, which is that the στοιχεῖα are the physical elements of earth, air, fire and water.

CoreIssue said:
The NIV is the most read read Bible. The KJV has fallen to third and still dropping.

Not concerned with what is most read, CoreIssue. I'm only concerned with what is accurate.

ScottA · Mar 25, 2019

Hidden In Him said:
Ok. So what specific principles was he referring to?

Paul was referring to the principles of the flesh and of the world, repeatedly, because it was time to "press on" unto the "perfection" of the spirit of God. Jesus had preached to "think not of" the life we have in this world. Paul "followed" Him. Unfortunately, the church as a whole has done very little to do the same.

Hidden In Him · Mar 25, 2019

Enoch111 said:
let's look at those verses in the KJV:

Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: (Gal 4:3)
But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? (Gal 4:9)
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. (Col 2:9)
Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances (Col 2:20)

Before I respond, you are aware that the argument you present in your post conflicts with what the KJV interpreters were trying to communicate here, yes?

Enoch111 said:
But one of the other meanings of στοιχείων (stoicheiōn) is elemental spirits, cosmic spirits, or spiritual powers. And a third meaning of στοιχείων (stoicheiōn) is ranking, rows, or series.

Ranking? That's curious... where exactly did you get this translation of the word? I don't see it mentioned anywhere in any of the sources I use, including Liddell-Scott, and if it were used in this sense anywhere it would at least receive mention there if nowhere else.

Hidden In Him · Mar 25, 2019

ScottA said:
Paul was referring to the principles of the flesh and of the world, repeatedly, because it was time to "press on" unto the "perfection" of the spirit of God. Jesus had preached to "think not of" the life we have in this world. Paul "followed" Him. Unfortunately, the church as a whole has done very little to do the same.

Ok. I think we are coming fairly close into agreement, then. But again: What principles of the flesh and the world specifically? Name some.

Enoch111 · Mar 25, 2019

Hidden In Him said:
Before I respond, you are aware that the argument you present in your post conflicts with what the KJV interpreters were trying to communicate here, yes?

The KJV translators were trying to avoid interpretation, so that is not really an issue. But the word must be interpret as relating to evil spirits influencing men to practice false religions. Satan is behind every false religions.

Ranking? That's curious... where exactly did you get this translation of the word? I don't see it mentioned anywhere in any of the sources I use, including Liddell-Scott, and if it were used in this sense anywhere it would at least receive mention there if nowhere else.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon [tries to avoid elemental spirits]
STRONGS NT 4747: στοιχεῖον
στοιχεῖον, στοιχειου, τό (from στοῖχος a row, rank, series; hence, properly, that which belongs to any στοῖχος, that of which a στοῖχος is composed; hence), "any first thing, from which the others belonging to some series or composite whole take their rise; an element, first principle". The word denotes specifically:...
3. the heavenly bodies, either as parts of the heavens, or (as others think) because in them the elements of man's life and destiny were supposed to reside; so in the earlier ecclesiastical writings: Ep. ad Diogn. 7, 2 [ET];Justin Martyr, dialog contra Trypho, 23; τά Οὐρανίαστοιχεῖα, id. Apology 2, 5; στοιχεῖα Θεοῦ, created by God, Theophilus Ant. ad Autol. 1, 4; cf. Hilgenfeld, Galaterbrief, pp. 66-77. Hence, some interpreters infelicitously understand Paul's phrase τά στοιχεῖα τοῦκόσμου, Galatians 4:3, 9; Colossians 2:8, 20, of the heavenly bodies, because times and seasons, and so sacred seasons, were regulated by the course of the sun and moon; yet in unfolding the meaning of the passage on the basis of this sense they differ widely.

CoreIssue · Mar 25, 2019

Hidden In Him said:
Well I'm not trying to "do" anything, LoL. I'm just wanting to get to the bottom of what this expression of Paul's means.

For the sake of letting everyone view it, here are the translations provided at Bible Hub:

New International Version
See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

New Living Translation
Don't let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powers of this world, rather than from Christ.

English Standard Version
See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

Berean Study Bible
See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, which are based on human tradition and the spiritual forces of the world rather than on Christ.

Berean Literal Bible
Take heed lest there will be anyone taking you captive through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the principles of the world and not according to Christ.

New American Standard Bible
See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

King James Bible
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Christian Standard Bible
Be careful that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit based on human tradition, based on the elements of the world, rather than Christ.

Contemporary English Version
Don't let anyone fool you by using senseless arguments. These arguments may sound wise, but they are only human teachings. They come from the powers of this world and not from Christ.

Good News Translation
See to it, then, that no one enslaves you by means of the worthless deceit of human wisdom, which comes from the teachings handed down by human beings and from the ruling spirits of the universe, and not from Christ.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Be careful that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit based on human tradition, based on the elemental forces of the world, and not based on Christ.

International Standard Version
See to it that no one enslaves you through philosophy and empty deceit according to human tradition, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to the Messiah,

NET Bible
Be careful not to allow anyone to captivate you through an empty, deceitful philosophy that is according to human traditions and the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

New Heart English Bible
Be careful not to allow anyone to captivate you through an empty and deceptive philosophy, according to human tradition, according to the elementary principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Beware lest any man rob you by philosophy, or by empty deception, according to the teaching of men and according to the principles of the world and not according to The Messiah,

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Be careful not to let anyone rob you [of this faith] through a shallow and misleading philosophy. Such a person follows human traditions and the world's way of doing things rather than following Christ.

New American Standard 1977
See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

Jubilee Bible 2000
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the traditions of men, according to the elements of the world, and not after Christ.

King James 2000 Bible
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

American King James Version
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

American Standard Version
Take heed lest there shall be any one that maketh spoil of you through his philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ:

Douay-Rheims Bible
Beware lest any man cheat you by philosophy, and vain deceit; according to the tradition of men, according to the elements of the world, and not according to Christ:

Darby Bible Translation
See that there be no one who shall lead you away as a prey through philosophy and vain deceit, according to the teaching of men, according to the elements of the world, and not according to Christ.

English Revised Version
Take heed lest there shall be any one that maketh spoil of you through his philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ:

Webster's Bible Translation
Beware lest any man make a prey of you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Weymouth New Testament
Take care lest there be some one who leads you away as prisoners by means of his philosophy and idle fancies, following human traditions and the world's crude notions instead of following Christ.

World English Bible
Be careful that you don't let anyone rob you through his philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the elements of the world, and not after Christ.

Young's Literal Translation
See that no one shall be carrying you away as spoil through the philosophy and vain deceit, according to the deliverance of men, according to the rudiments of the world, and not according to Christ.

These aren't all the translations of course, but I suppose they could be taken as a representative sample, and the tally here is 8, 17, and 4.
- 8 give the NIV interpretation, 17 give the KJV interpretation, and 4 give the third major interpretation not yet mentioned, which is that the στοιχεῖα are the physical elements of earth, air, fire and water.

Not concerned with what is most read, CoreIssue. I'm only concerned with what is accurate.

When you eliminate the paraphrase Bibles and those based on the KJV, the issue is cleared up what I said holds.

Hidden In Him · Mar 25, 2019

Enoch111 said:
The KJV translators were trying to avoid interpretation, so that is not really an issue.

They do appear to possibly have been avoiding interpretation in Galatians 4:3 and 4:9. But they were clear on Colossians 2:8 and 2:20. The translation of "rudiments" is in line with "principles," and could not be construed in any way to mean demonic spirits, IMO.

Enoch111 said:
Satan is behind every false religions.

I am perfectly in agreement with this as a theological position. I just don't think it's what's being said in the phrase in question.

Enoch111 said:
Thayer's Greek Lexicon [tries to avoid elemental spirits]
STRONGS NT 4747: στοιχεῖον
στοιχεῖον, στοιχειου, τό (from στοῖχος a row, rank, series; hence, properly, that which belongs to any στοῖχος, that of which a στοῖχος is composed; hence...

I see. But you are using a translation of the root word στοῖχος, which is a different word. Thayer's is here demonstrating the base meaning of the root word behind which the related noun στοιχεῖον derives its meaning, but they are two separate words. It would be similar to saying Principality means the same exact thing as Principle. The words Principality and Principle come from the same stem, but they are not to be confused with one another as perfectly synonymous. They are two distinct words communicating two different things.

Hidden In Him · Mar 25, 2019

CoreIssue said:
When you eliminate the paraphrase Bibles and those based on the KJV, the issue is cleared up what I said holds.

There are three King James translations listed, if that's what you meant by translations that are "based on the KJV." Of the four paraphrases listed, three of them actually favor the NIV reading.

CoreIssue · Mar 25, 2019

Strong's Number: 4747 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
stoicei'on from a presumed derivative of the base of (4748)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Stoicheion 7:670,1087
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
stoy-khi'-on Noun Neuter
Definition

any first thing, from which the others belonging to some series or composite whole take their rise, an element, first principal
1. the letters of the alphabet as the elements of speech, not however the written characters, but the spoken sounds
2. the elements from which all things have come, the material causes of the universe
3. the heavenly bodies, either as parts of the heavens or (as others think) because in them the elements of man, life and destiny were supposed to reside
4. the elements, rudiments, primary and fundamental principles of any art, science, or discipline
  1. i.e. of mathematics, Euclid's geometry

The definition is clear, the fundamentals underlying the issues.

The issues here are sin and demonic activity. They are the foundational and fundamental causes.

The Bible repeatedly warns about people returning to sin and listening to demons.

Can't skip over them and appeal to their fruit as being the answer. Their fruit is a result of them.

brakelite · Mar 25, 2019

Hidden In Him said:
"the principles of the world."

Hidden In Him said:
What principles specifically?

I wonder if my post The God that mankind is rebelling against doesn't exist. is maybe a part of what you are looking for?

Hidden In Him · Mar 25, 2019

CoreIssue said:
Definition

any first thing, from which the others belonging to some series or composite whole take their rise, an element, first principal

the letters of the alphabet as the elements of speech, not however the written characters, but the spoken sounds

the elements from which all things have come, the material causes of the universe

the heavenly bodies, either as parts of the heavens or (as others think) because in them the elements of man, life and destiny were supposed to reside

the elements, rudiments, primary and fundamental principles of any art, science, or discipline

i.e. of mathematics, Euclid's geometry

The definition is clear, the fundamentals underlying the issues.

The issues here are sin and demonic activity. They are the foundational and fundamental causes.

Nice slight of hand, CoreIssue, but if you look closely your underlined sentence is not included as one of Strong's definitions of the word.

CoreIssue said:
The Bible repeatedly warns about people returning to sin and listening to demons.

Can't skip over them and appeal to their fruit as being the answer. Their fruit is a result of them.

Again, like I told Enoch. I fully agree with this as a theological position. I simply don't think it is what's being communicated by the phrase in question we're discussing.

Hidden In Him · Mar 25, 2019

brakelite said:
I wonder if my post The God that mankind is rebelling against doesn't exist. is maybe a part of what you are looking for?

Ok... : ) I was assuming the SDA position would have to be something like this.
Let me get this straight, however, without automatically assuming anything. You are arguing that the "principles of the world" then would be rebellious attitudes towards God, and the desire to do one's own thing, whereas the proper attitude would be to embrace God's law, correct?

What Did Paul Mean By These Words?

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