What wonders do you think could fool the elect?

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Davy

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So brethren, what is... the actual CONTEXT Apostle Paul was giving us in the 2 Thessalonians 2 chapter??? He revealed it right in the first verse:

2 Thess 2:1
2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

KJV

What TIMING is Paul talking about there folks??

Paul is talking about the event on the LAST DAY of this present world! the day of our Lord Jesus' return AND... our gathering to Him!

Paul is NOT talking about 2,000 years of falling away folks! He's talking about signs in the LAST DAYS that MUST happen before Jesus comes.

2 Thess 2:2-4
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV


All 3 of those verses go together in context. Beware of men's doctrines that try to pull out parts of it and isolate it from the whole.

The subject is about false men trying to say Christ's coming will be at a different time, and that instead... we are to be watching for that "man of sin" coming to sit in a literal temple in Jerusalem, proclaiming to be God, and this later verse goes with it as to what that false one will work...

2 Thess 2:9
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

KJV

Wait a minute. Didn't our Lord Jesus warn us of this very thing in His Olivet discourse??? YES! He did!

Matt 24:23-26
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, he is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, he is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
KJV


The KJV phrase "false Christs" is actually singular per the context of those verses. Our Lord Jesus is warning of a pseudo-Messiah coming that people will say is our Lord Jesus Christ (Messiah). Dr. James Strong in his Strong's Exhaustive Concordance defined the Greek word for that phrase as 'a spurious Messiah' (5580).

Do you see that parallel there of the working of "great signs and wonders"? That's what the false one Paul mentioned is to come at the end doing, and WE KNOW THE FALSE COMES AT THE END OF THIS WORLD in the days of Jesus' return! "Well, how do we know that?", some will say...

2 Thess 2:8-9
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
KJV


No doubt about it! That "Wicked" one HAS to manifest on the world scene in the generation that will experience Christ's RETURN!!!

Now is that 2,000 years of working those great signs and lying wonders folks? Of course not! Paul's Message in 2 Thess.2 is for the very END of this world when Jesus returns, not starting 2,000 years ago!!!
 

Copperhead

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That isn't the falling away meaning at all... that Apostle Paul was warning of. Instead, you are simply regurgitating a doctrine of men dreamed up as a cover-all for their pet theories that the pope is Antichrist. None of their theories even fits the actual context... of the 2 Thessalonians 2 chapter, nor its direct connection to the false one Jesus warned of in His Olivet discourse, nor the false one He later warned of through Apostle John in Rev.13 that is to come doing those great signs and lying wonders! Instead, deceived folks like you on those doctrines of men don't have a clue of what the actual context from Paul is there in 2 Thess.2.

You do indeed have a vivid imagination. I never once brought up the RCC or the Pope in the discussion. Matter of fact, neither crossed my mind and I can't even recall the last time they did.

But as for doctrines of men, you are doing the same thing, unless now you are trying to tell us that you are the sole arbiter of truth. That you were the inspiration of the Biblical text and you lay claim as the sole interpreter of it.

It is ok to disagree. We are not robots. But I showed several examples of very learned individuals that are Greek scholars who hold that 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (and even expounded more in verses 7-8) is talking about a removal of the righteous before the man of sin / antichrist can be revealed. Essentially a pre-trib position. You have produced nothing except your opinion to counter that.

But you have revealed more than I think you intended. When a person resorts to character assassination as you have by stating I am only regurgitating doctrines of men and that I am deceived, etc, you are showing that you approve of worldly political tactics designed to shut down fruitful discussion and put the opposition on the defensive. Someone who claims to be a believer using worldly tactics against a fellow believer..... not a good sign, bro. You might want to back up and take a breath before you dig yourself in deeper. Maybe humbling yourself before the Lord might be a good start.
 

Copperhead

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Wait a minute. Didn't our Lord Jesus warn us of this very thing in His Olivet discourse??? YES! He did!

Of course He warned of everything. And we can learn many things from that discourse. But that doesn't mean that the redeemed are the ones who have to live thru it. Nothing about Matthew 24 and 25 suggests for one minute that the redeemed in Messiah are in view.

Deception of the elect in Matthew 24 does not mean the redeemed elect of the body of Messiah. it applies to the elect corporate entity of Israel per Isaiah 45:4. Just like the rest of the discourse (Matthew 25) centers around the elect entity of Israel. They are the ones who make up the bridesmaids (virgins) of Matthew 25. The redeemed elect make up the bride, not the bridesmaids. And the nations are judged also in that chapter on how they treated Yeshua's Hebrew brethren, Israel, in almost mirror exposition of Joel 3.
 

Davy

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You do indeed have a vivid imagination. I never once brought up the RCC or the Pope in the discussion. Matter of fact, neither crossed my mind and I can't even recall the last time they did.

You don't have to bring it up, you picked up some of their theories indirectly it is apparent. They treat the man of sin as the "many antichrists", and not as the singular pseudo-Christ entity that our Lord Jesus warned of, which is Who and where Paul is pulling from in 2 Thess.2:3-4. How do I know this? It's because of your false interpretation that the falling away has been going on for centuries! For that to be true, it automatically precludes the idea of "many antichrists" working over centuries, applying their false concept to Paul's meaning in 2 Thess.2.
 

Copperhead

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You don't have to bring it up, you picked up some of their theories indirectly it is apparent. They treat the man of sin as the "many antichrists", and not as the singular pseudo-Christ entity that our Lord Jesus warned of, which is Who and where Paul is pulling from in 2 Thess.2:3-4. How do I know this? It's because of your false interpretation that the falling away has been going on for centuries! For that to be true, it automatically precludes the idea of "many antichrists" working over centuries, applying their false concept to Paul's meaning in 2 Thess.2.

Wow. i hope you enjoy the ride you are on. That is way outside anything that I was asserting, but if it trips your trigger, have fun.

I simply quoted the verse when it said man of sin. I didn't imply anything other that that. I have always seen that at the one antichrist of the end times.

But as for the passage meaning a physical departure as opposed to a falling away, I stand by that. Grammatically, it fits the context better. And I showed where some very learned scholars in the Greek NT have concluded that the passage is speaking of a physical or spatial departure and not a doctrinal departure. Both the noun form apostasia and the verb form aphistemi can be used as both a physical or doctrinal departure. The context is key. And the context of the passage is our gathering to the Lord in verse 1. Not our departing from the Lord. And given that virtually every translation of the scripture up till the KJV used departure as opposed to falling away, that bolsters the case somewhat.

But the falling away from the Lord has indeed been going on since before the ink was dry on the NT. In Acts, Paul exclaims how all of Asia has heard the gospel. And later to Timothy, Pauls is discouraged because all in Asia had turned away. Just a casual read of the letters to the 7 churches in Revelation and one gets the idea that the church is already in deep trouble. Oh, lest we forget the Corinthians. Wow, it would be easy to confuse them for the Californians.

So it seems a little lame to make the argument that a falling away is something special or unique that characterizes the end time. It has been going on for a long, long time. Actually it really shouldn't be surprising. In every time, the Lord only had a remnant. Whether it be Noah and his family or Elijah and the 7000, right on up thru today. Yeshua said that the path is narrow and few find it.
 
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Davy

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....

But the falling away from the Lord has indeed been going on since before the ink was dry on the NT. In Acts, Paul exclaims how all of Asia has heard the gospel. And later to Timothy, Pauls is discouraged because all in Asia had turned away. Just a casual read of the letters to the 7 churches in Revelation and one gets the idea that the church is already in deep trouble. Oh, lest we forget the Corinthians. Wow, it would be easy to confuse them for the Californians.

And there it is (in red), men's doctrines falsely assuming Apostle Paul was speaking of the falling away in 2 Thess.2 to be an event that would happen over centuries, thus removing it from the actual context of that chapter, which is about the Antichrist coming at the very end to play God in Jerusalem!
 

Copperhead

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And there it is (in red), men's doctrines falsely assuming Apostle Paul was speaking of the falling away in 2 Thess.2 to be an event that would happen over centuries, thus removing it from the actual context of that chapter, which is about the Antichrist coming at the very end to play God in Jerusalem!

Like I stated, enjoy that ride you are on. You are going places I never suggested and I am not interested in doing that.

I will make this simple. Paul was not talking about a falling away at all in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. He was talking about the departure or rapture. Will you get off the conspiracy game! The context of the chapter is in verse one......

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,

What part of "falling away" fits the context? To even see falling away in the passage is imposing something on the text that just isn't there. The chapter is dealing with that day and our gathering to the Lord. It really cannot be more simple.
 
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Davy

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I will make this simple. Paul was not talking about a falling away at all in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. He was talking about the departure or rapture. Will you get off the conspiracy game! The context of the chapter is in verse one......

Just one falsehood after another, that's all that is above.

2 Thess 2:3-4
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV


You're falsehoods show you're not to be trusted in God's Word. You purposefully scoot the actual context of Scripture, so why should anyone listen to you.
 

Copperhead

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Just one falsehood after another, that's all that is above.

2 Thess 2:3-4
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV


You're falsehoods show you're not to be trusted in God's Word. You purposefully scoot the actual context of Scripture, so why should anyone listen to you.

Ok. Enjoy the ride. It's been fun. I never accused you of anything but all you have done is accuse me of being deceived and malicious in my intent. Let's see how that plays out when we see Yeshua face to face.
 

Davy

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Ok. Enjoy the ride. It's been fun. I never accused you of anything but all you have done is accuse me of being deceived and malicious in my intent. Let's see how that plays out when we see Yeshua face to face.

I don't care if you're afraid of being accused of falsehood or not. It is what it is.

You said to me:
"So you would be correct. The falling away of 2 Thessalonians 2 has not occurred, and never will, because falling away is not what is being conveyed by that passage. The Geneva Bible, Beza Bible, Tyndale Bible, Coverdale Bible, Latin Vulgate, etc all concur that it is a physical or spatial departure not a spiritual or doctrinal departure."



The event of "falling away" that Paul spoke of has NOTHING to do with being raptured to Jesus! Your idea is a false doctrine from men. And it's EASY to show it as false. In verse 3 below, Apostle Paul is talking about two main events that must happen first... before... any gathering of the Church to Christ at His coming. And the "falling away" (apostasia) is one of them that must happen first!!! That is valid proof that Paul was NOT talking about a 'rapture' with that "falling away" idea!

2 Thess 2:3-4
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV


2 Thess 2:8-9
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

KJV

Verse 8 reveals that "Wicked" one will manifest at a time of the very end of this world when Jesus returns. That is NOT... about past centuries of people falling out of the Christian Church!

Like I said, you are not to be trusted in God's written Word. You have bypassed the actual context of Apostle Paul's warning in favor of spreading lies! And you even tried to push scholarly backup with saying other Bible texts support your conclusion, when they do NOT!
 

Copperhead

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I don't care if you're afraid of being accused of falsehood or not. It is what it is.

You said to me:
"So you would be correct. The falling away of 2 Thessalonians 2 has not occurred, and never will, because falling away is not what is being conveyed by that passage. The Geneva Bible, Beza Bible, Tyndale Bible, Coverdale Bible, Latin Vulgate, etc all concur that it is a physical or spatial departure not a spiritual or doctrinal departure."



The event of "falling away" that Paul spoke of has NOTHING to do with being raptured to Jesus! Your idea is a false doctrine from men. And it's EASY to show it as false. In verse 3 below, Apostle Paul is talking about two main events that must happen first... before... any gathering of the Church to Christ at His coming. And the "falling away" (apostasia) is one of them that must happen first!!! That is valid proof that Paul was NOT talking about a 'rapture' with that "falling away" idea!

2 Thess 2:3-4
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV


2 Thess 2:8-9
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

KJV

Verse 8 reveals that "Wicked" one will manifest at a time of the very end of this world when Jesus returns. That is NOT... about past centuries of people falling out of the Christian Church!

Like I said, you are not to be trusted in God's written Word. You have bypassed the actual context of Apostle Paul's warning in favor of spreading lies! And you even tried to push scholarly backup with saying other Bible texts support your conclusion, when they do NOT!

Keep diggin that hole
 

n2thelight

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I will agree with that statement. But in all fairness, most "Christians" do not grow beyond the basic "I accept Jesus". Most do not even study or even have the desire to do so. As whether they are indeed Christians or not, that is outside my pay grade to judge. I am only allowed to be a fruit inspector. Only YHVH can judge the heart. But I think a lot of folks, including me, will be shocked to see who didn't make the cut and who actually did.

And regarding the Millennial kingdom, I think many make the mistake of equating it with Heaven. Sure Yeshua is ruling and nature has been restored to what it was intended to be, but there ia lot more going on that many just don't want to see, and what is going on behind the scenes is enough to set the the stage for one more final rebellion against the Lord at the end of the millennial kingdom when Satan is released. Death and sin are still present. Yeshua will rule with a rod of iron, which implies that He will have to put down the heavy hand on folks when they get out of line. The kingdom parables of Matthew 13 give us a lot of insight into the this.

You right most don't go beyond the milk

At the return of Christ the flesh age is over,we shall all be changed into our spiritual bodies,ie,those that we were from the beginning(not talking about the Garden)

Death and sin will not ,perse be present, to understand what I mean,we gotta go to the below scripture


Revelation 20:12"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

Notice there are two sets of books here. The first called "The Books" is to judge the unsaved. The second is the "Book of Life" where only the names of the saved are recorded. The saved have had their sins removed from God's judgment and booted out. Though they were committed, the blood of Christ has covered them from being used against us.

Notice how all souls are judged "according to their works". Does it talk about faith here after the Millennium? No. The "great white throne judgment" will not take faith into consideration. The first resurrection takes faith into consideration. That was back on "the Lord's day". That was Jesus Christ's "great day". On the last day of the Millennium age, souls are judged by works only.

Why are you judged for works only? Faith is something hoped for but unseen. You don't see Jesus Christ on earth today, you will see his wonderful works, and be led by Him and His Spirit in the Millennium age. Today He is in heaven and not walking on this earth. However, in the millennium, He will be on earth, and all will have full intelligence, with full recall and will be taught. The Heavenly Father honors all those with grace, that have accepted His Son by faith through repentance without Christ's physical presence here on earth, if you believed in His Word.

To those who are not under grace in the Millennium, their salvation will be only through and by their works. For faith doesn't exist to them. There will be no ignorance, physical handicap, for you will see, know, and experience Our Lord first hand.

If you follow the Antichrist, the first Christ to appear, you will have forfeited your salvation in this earth age. You will not be under the grace of God, and your works will be the only thing that matters on the last day of the Millennium, the day of judgment. They will be judged by works alone, for they have seen Jesus Christ, and are without excuse. The "rapture theory" leaves believers defenseless against Satan, for they will be taken in by Satan's deceptions.



To refuse Christ at the end of the Millennium age will commit you to destruction.
 

n2thelight

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Well, no. Paul did warn of the "great falling away" in 2 Thessalonians 2.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

Virtually every translation of the NT prior to the KJV said a departure would occur including the Latin Vulgate which said it is a spatial or distance departure. None of them said or implied a doctrinal departure or "falling away".

The context of 2 Thessalonians 2 is in verse one.....

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,

The context of 2 Thes 2 is not our departure from Him or apostasy or falling away. Dr. Kenneth Wuest, head of NT Greek for Moody Bible Institute from 1929 to 1961 wrote extensively that apostasia in 2 Thes 2:3 has in mind a physical departure. Dr. Andy Woods, doctorate of Law and Doctorate of Theology, and president of Chafer Theological Seminary concurs whole heartedly. Dr. Ken Johnson, ThD, expert on early church documents, also concurs.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the pre-trib removal of the righteous. According to Dr. Woods.... "game, set, match".

So you would be correct. The falling away of 2 Thessalonians 2 has not occurred, and never will, because falling away is not what is being conveyed by that passage. The Geneva Bible, Beza Bible, Tyndale Bible, Coverdale Bible, Latin Vulgate, etc all concur that it is a physical or spatial departure not a spiritual or doctrinal departure.

But in all fairness, the falling away or apostasy has been going on since Genesis 3.

Thess 2 is not about a rapture

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

Paul is now getting to the purpose for this second letter. Paul reminded them of his first letter to them, of Christ returning and our gathering back to Him. Because of the misunderstanding that could be drawn from the first letter, he writes the following.

It's important in this final generation that we pay attention for this will happen during our life time. The subject again of this letter is; "our gathering back to Christ".

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is [the Lord is just] at hand."

Paul doesn't want you to misunderstand what he is about to say. This is why he makes it plain and simple; Paul told them not to confuse what he is saying here with any other teaching, or spirit, or even that first letter from him. This is because there was a confusing part in the first letter where false teachers had crept in and twisted Paul's words. The prime example of this today is the twisting of that first letter by the "rapture theorist", to form the trap that has been set for Christians in this final generation.

Paul is saying, don't let anyone trouble you [confuse you], and tell you that the "day of Christ" is at hand. The "day of Christ [the Lord]" is the day when Jesus Christ will return to earth, and gather His saints to Him. This gathering will happen at the sounding of the seventh trumpet. This is one of those tradition's of men [false doctrines] that can deceive you.

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Jesus Christ is not gathering anyone to Him, nor is He coming here to earth, except there be a falling away first. The word for "falling away", in the Greek is "apostasy". Jesus told us in His revelation to John, in Revelation 9:11, that "Apollyon" is one of Satan's names, and this name is derived from the word apostasy.

The word "perdition" means "one that perishes". Satan and only Satan has already been condemned to die [to perish] by God. Satan's judgment day has come already back in the first earth age, and he will have no part in the Great White Throne judgment, or any other judgment yet to come. He has already been judged, and sentence by God to death "perdition" [Ezekiel 28 covers this judgment].
 

Copperhead

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Thess 2 is not about a rapture

Many Greek scholars and others would say that it does have to do with the rapture.

virtually every translation of the NT prior to the KJV translated apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 as "departure", "a departure", "the departure", "a departing". Even the Latin Vulgate uses dicessio which is a spatial / physical departure not a doctrinal one.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (1599 Geneva Bible) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

Apostasia, and the verb form Aphistemi, can mean a departure in a physical sense or a departure in a doctrinal sense. Context is key. and 2 Thessalonians 2:1 is clear what the context is..... "our gathering together unto Him". Not our departure from Him. So the context would suggest apostasia would be a physical / spatial departure as in a removal of the righteous just like the earliest translations stated. It would be both grammatically and logically incorrect to say in one verse that one is talking about our gathering to the Lord and 2 verses later say that is has to do with our departing from the Lord. It is a non sequitur.

It is akin to many words we use. I can say something like "man, it is really cool outside" which would be regarding temperature. I also could say "man, that is a really cool motorcycle", which has nothing to do with temperature but appeal.

The context is why I side with 2 Thessalonians 2:3 in talking about the removal of the righteous. "Game, set, match" as Dr. Andy Woods is fond of saying.
 
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n2thelight

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Many Greek scholars and others would say that it does have to do with the rapture.

virtually every translation of the NT prior to the KJV translated apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 as "departure", "a departure", "the departure", "a departing". Even the Latin Vulgate uses dicessio which is a spatial / physical departure not a doctrinal one.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (1599 Geneva Bible) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

Apostasia, and the verb form Aphistemi, can mean a departure in a physical sense or a departure in a doctrinal sense. Context is key. and 2 Thessalonians 2:1 is clear what the context is..... "our gathering together unto Him". Not our departure from Him. So the context would suggest apostasia would be a physical / spatial departure as in a removal of the righteous just like the earliest translations stated. It would be both grammatically and logically incorrect to say in one verse that one is talking about our gathering to the Lord and 2 verses later say that is has to do with our departing from the Lord. It is a non sequitur.

It is akin to many words we use. I can say something like "man, it is really cool outside" which would be regarding temperature. I also could say "man, that is a really cool motorcycle", which has nothing to do with temperature but appeal.

The context is why I side with 2 Thessalonians 2:3 in talking about the removal of the righteous. "Game, set, match" as Dr. Andy Woods is fond of saying.

Yes ,a departing from truth,not from this earth,scripture shows that in other places,

Amos 8:12 "And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and from to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it."

Please look at our gathering,and when Paul from scripture says it will happen

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

What's the subject of this verse?

Our gathering back to Christ,correct?

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come , except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

What Day shall not come?Our gathering back to Christ right?

Okay so you say it's a departure from this earth,why do you ignore the 2nd part of this verse?The man of sin that must be revealed whom is satan himself.

satan can't be revealed until he get's here 666 ,when he (satan) gets here on earth,starts the tribulation,so do tell how do you all leave before satan is revealed?

Now, do you know when he will be revealed?It's when he kills the two witnesses...
Christ returns 3 days after!!!

Now lets look at the definition of apostasy again

Result of search for "apostasia ":

646. apostasia ap-os-tas-ee'-ah feminine of the same as 647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):--falling away, forsake.

How can one fall up?(rapture)
 

Copperhead

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What's the subject of this verse?

Our gathering back to Christ,correct?

Wrong. Not out "gathering back" to Christ, but our gathering to Christ at His appearing. It is talking about the coming of the Lord and our being caught up to Him. In verse 2, the Thessalonians were upset that they were already in the Day of the Lord. The only reason they could be upset is if they felt they missed something. Paul has to calm them down.

2 Thessalonians 2:2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come

And Paul reminds them that the Day of Christ will not come unless the departure happens first and the man of sin is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

Paul reminds them in verse 5 how he had told them these things. And 1 Thessalonians also speaks of a pre-trib removal of the righteous. Then Paul expands on this even further in verses 6-8. Paul follows a very simple, logical progression from verse 1 thru verse 8.

Very simple if one just remembers their basic writing structure classes from school.
 

n2thelight

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Wrong. Not out "gathering back" to Christ, but our gathering to Christ at His appearing. It is talking about the coming of the Lord and our being caught up to Him. In verse 2, the Thessalonians were upset that they were already in the Day of the Lord. The only reason they could be upset is if they felt they missed something. Paul has to calm them down.

Choose what word you want,to or back,fact remains the same!

And yes they were feeling amiss ,that's why Paul told them what must happen before Christ returns and it's the exact same thing Christ Himself told us in Matt 24 as well as Mark 13@!!!!!!!

Bottom line satan must and will come to this earth,before the return of Christ,period

To make it simple satan comes at 666
Christ returns at 777
 

n2thelight

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For those who say Jew's will be saves just because,my question,what happened to them in the wilderness ?The non believers died,never making it to the promise land,why?
 

Copperhead

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Choose what word you want,to or back,fact remains the same!

And yes they were feeling amiss ,that's why Paul told them what must happen before Christ returns and it's the exact same thing Christ Himself told us in Matt 24 as well as Mark 13@!!!!!!!

Bottom line satan must and will come to this earth,before the return of Christ,period

To make it simple satan comes at 666
Christ returns at 777

"fact remains" as you have perceived it, which does not substantiate it as a fact.

Yes indeed, the man of sin will be revealed before Yeshua returns to this earth. But the gathering or rapture, he does not return to this earth. Did you not read where Paul says we will be gathered in the air with Yeshua? 1 Thessalonians 4:17. Oh yeah, the first letter that Paul reminded the Thessalonians in 2 Thes 2:5 of!

Just like a groom coming to get his bride in the 1st century Jewish tradition, the groom waits outside the house and the bride comes out to him and then they return together to the wedding chamber (Chupah) that he has prepared for them.

Yeshua was fond of using the analogy of the Hebrew wedding. Maybe you should study that a little more. Lots of insight there.
 
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Copperhead

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For those who say Jew's will be saves just because,my question,what happened to them in the wilderness ?The non believers died,never making it to the promise land,why?

Some did go into the promised land, just as some will go into the future promised land. Poor analogy though, as the scripture is clear that in the future, Jacob (Israel - all 12 tribes) will be saved Per Ezekiel 20, Matthew 25, Jeremiah 30, and on and on. What about the 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes in Revelation? Why?

Non-believing gentiles don't make it to the future promised land? Per Matthew 25, Joel 3, etc. Why? I believe the answer to that is the same for above.

But if YHVH cannot be trusted to honor His word in saving the remnant of Jacob (Israel), then the promises to save all those who trust in Yeshua is not worth spit either. That would mean YHVH would be downgraded to Allah.... capricious and untrustworthy.

That is why Israel is the believer's insurance policy. In as much as He can be trusted to honor his word to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, that shows His desire to honor His word to those who have placed their trust in Yeshua.
 
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