Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.
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Waiting on him
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1 Corinthians 15:27 KJV
[27] For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted which did put all things under him.
Tecarta Bible
LOL--read the entire Book of Revelation and you will know that it can't possibly have "already happened". No amount of spiritualization of the text will suffice.
Waiting on him
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Waiting on him
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What's that got to do with anything? Colossians goes on in verse 5, to say that we should "put to death the sinful earthly things lurking within you". (Note the future tense.)
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
Don't give him an escape route. Make him answer my question and provide his proofs for what he believes.
Said opens the door for him to ramble on about negative proof claims and such. His normal tactic.
@Keraz you're kind of ignoring John 14:3.
"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also"
Jesus says that he will come back and recieve us unto Himself after he has prepared a place for us (in Heaven, where He was going). Since God dwells in the highest 3rd Heaven, and tells us that we will be with Him where He is (future tense) then it stands to reason that we will, one day, be in that Heaven with Him.
I've heard this criticism before but don't entirely understand it. If people are waiting for rapture and it doesn't happen, why is it so unlikely that Christian's would change their eschatology and become posttrib, or amillenial? Surely we don't become Christians on the argument of pretrib rapture alone, but through revelation of God's Son. I don't really see Christian's abandoning the entire faith on the basis that their end times theory happened to be incorrect.
"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also"
Jesus says that he will come back and recieve us unto Himself after he has prepared a place for us (in Heaven, where He was going). Since God dwells in the highest 3rd Heaven, and tells us that we will be with Him where He is (future tense) then it stands to reason that we will, one day, be in that Heaven with Him.
I've heard this criticism before but don't entirely understand it. If people are waiting for rapture and it doesn't happen, why is it so unlikely that Christian's would change their eschatology and become posttrib, or amillenial? Surely we don't become Christians on the argument of pretrib rapture alone, but through revelation of God's Son. I don't really see Christian's abandoning the entire faith on the basis that their end times theory happened to be incorrect.
John 14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in Me."
Jesus is telling us that He doesn't want us to worry. As we go through this fourteenth chapter, we will return to this verse several times. If you love the Lord Jesus Christ, and you believe on Him, then you don't have anything to worry about. Now He is going to tell us why.
John 14:2 "In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."
Have you ever heard Christians say before, "I have a mansion in the sky"? Friend, that is not what "mansions" is talking about here, however it is even more beautiful then those thoughts of a large house in the sky. Let's take the word "mansions" as written in the Greek text. "Mansions" is "mone", # 3438 in the Strong's Greek dictionary, and pronounced, "mon-ay' ". It means a place to rest and abide where there is no trouble. Friend, this resting place is in Christ and the Father, that is the resting.
What is the subject of this chapter,? "Don't worry." Jesus is telling you don't worry at any time if you believe.
John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."
This is Jesus' promise to you and I today, as much as it was to those eleven disciples sitting at the supper table with Him two thousand years ago. Jesus is telling us that we can count on Him, He is returning to earth to receive His own, and be with them here on earth during the Millennium age Kingdom.
Why would we need the seal of God if we not gonna be here?
Revelation 7:3 "Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."
The sealing is that of the Elect,which is before satan and his angels arrive on this earth
Why would we need the gospel armour if we not gonna be here?
Ephesians 6:13 "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God that ye may be able to with stand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand."
What evil day?It's the day satan !!
Revelation 7:3 "Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."
The sealing is that of the Elect,which is before satan and his angels arrive on this earth
Why would we need the gospel armour if we not gonna be here?
Ephesians 6:13 "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God that ye may be able to with stand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand."
What evil day?It's the day satan !!
@n2thelight interesting responses. What do you make of 1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Now, I think we can agree that we aren't just going to be hanging out in the clouds for years. It says that when we are caught up we will be with the Lord. This is before the Millennial Reign.
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Now, I think we can agree that we aren't just going to be hanging out in the clouds for years. It says that when we are caught up we will be with the Lord. This is before the Millennial Reign.
Hmm. I'm not sure if theres an scatological reference in that verse tbh.
The evil day is today and basically every day we live wake and breath in this fallen and corrupted world. Hence why we put the armour on daily.
He is telling us a lot more, and it all relates to the Rapture. The key to properly understanding this passage is right here: I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
This ties in directly with 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18:For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God...and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Christ does not send out angels to gather His Bride. The Lord comes "Himself" to receive us "unto Himself". Hence "I will come again, and receive you unto myself".
This is depicted by Jewish weddings. The bridegroom came to take the bride back to his house. Jesus said "In my Father's house are many mansions". That is to be taken as plainly as it is stated. The mansions in the New Jerusalem could not be described by any human. And they are reserved for the saints.
But you are attempting to spiritualize this passage which clearly tells us that all this is to be taken as a literal event -- the Resurrection/Rapture of the Church, and the catching up of the saints to Heaven.
Most if not all don't get the fact that the flesh will not rise,at death it's done with,never to be needed again.
Now let's do 1 Thess 4
Gonna start at the subject which is verse 13
I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."
The subject is those who sleep,in other words,those who have died
I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."
If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer].
It was on the fortieth day that he ascended back to the Father. When Jesus ascended into heaven, all the souls went with him into heaven also, that had passed on, up to that point in time. The souls of some went to wait for that time of judgment, while others to the glory of God. Those that sleep [are dead] are not out there in a hole in the ground, but all Christians must believe that they arose to be with the Father, just like Christ did also. The dead are with God; all of them. "To be absent from the body [flesh body] is to be present with the Lord." Ecclesiastes 12:7.
I Thessalonians 4:15
"For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise [precede] them which are asleep."
This, Paul states, is not his words, but it is from the Word God gave to him. Where? Ecclesiastes 12:7, that is where it is written.
"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord," this is our gathering back to Jesus Christ. "Shall not prevent them", would be better translated, "We are not going to precede [go before] them." We can not precede them for a very simple reason; the dead are already there with God. It is the only logical fact that can come from this. If you do not, or will not believe this, then you believe in soul sleep as the heathen do, and the hope and glory Paul is speaking of, for the Christian, and you are ignorant of God's glory. Whether victorious, or sentenced to hell, all the dead are now with the Father, and not in the ground.
Paul, in another writing, told us exactly; as far as the return of Jesus Christ, when we would be gathered back to Him. That goes also for when we would see those who are asleep [dead], and that exact moment is at the sounding of the seventh [last] trumpet. It will happen very quickly, in the wink [twinkling] of an eye. I Corinthians 15:50-54 tells us we will not go away to any place, but stay right here on earth. We are going to be changed into our new Spiritual bodies, and put off these flesh bodies.
Paul says, "Behold I show you a mystery". In other words, Paul is going to reveal something so we will not be ignorant about it. "We shall not all sleep [die] but we shall all be changed." I Corinthians 15:51 Changed to what? The same thing the dead are, and that is the subject. All those still in the flesh body, at a certain moment [the sounding of the seventh trumpet] will shed this flesh body [corruptible and perishable body] and take on the new "incorruptible" body. Friend, That is the hope and salvation of the Christian.
To document this, in I Corinthians 15:50 we are told that "flesh and blood cannot inherit", or face Jesus Christ in His kingdom. Christ's kingdom will cover the entire earth, and that is why the flesh body must perish. The time of this change comes at the seventh trumpet, which is the last trump, and stated in verse 52, "for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed".
Those who are even dead spiritually will be raised in an incorruptible body. That is a body that doesn't get sick, or grow old; in other words, it is your spiritual body.
Why?
Because the Kingdom of God is where ever Christ is; and at the seventh trump Christ will be on earth with the saints, and setting up his 1000 year millennium kingdom. No flesh and blood body can exist in that kingdom. This is your "gathering back to Christ", and that is what the rapture meaning is all about. It is the time when Christ comes back to earth and the saints that are alive are changed and drawn to Him.
I Corinthians 15:53, "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."
"Mortal" means "liable to die" in the Greek. At the last trump the Christians who stand against Satan, and his system, will have their immortality, however, those who fall for Antichrist and his system, will have to wait until after the 1000 years. "Corruptible into incorruption" is refering to the flesh body changing into the body such as the angels have, a spiritual body. Whereas the eternal condition of the soul is only extended to those who have not yielded to the Antichrist, For they only are the victors at the seventh trump. You put on immortality through Christ who set the way.
I Corinthians 15:54, "So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."
Going back to I Thessalonians 4:15, we know when this will come to pass. It will be "at the last trump", when the alive in Christ are "changed", not flying away.
I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"
The Lord is going to descend, at the seventh trump [the last trump]. Why will the dead in Christ rise first? Because they are already there, and with Him. All we have to do now is go to the book of Revelation, and find out in detail when this will be. We find out what events will occur just prior to this seventh trump sounding, and then when we see these certain events taking place before our eyes, we will know our Lord will return to earth next. Then the trump will sound, and the gathering will take place, and we will be changed from our flesh bodies to our spiritual bodies. And not one day before.
1thess4
Where ?Christ comes here nobody goes to Heaven unless they die.These are those that Christ brings back with Him at His one and only return.
Those in Christ will be with Him and that where is Jerusalem
Yes I agree,but never has man seen satan on this earth live and in person since the Garden,except for when he tempted Christ.The evil day is the hour of temptation.
One MUST understand that,SATAN himself,along with his angels are coming to this earth,it's not a maybe,it's a fact.
Not by possession but him pretending to be Christ and the whole world will believe that lie,except for those who were sealed.
Naomi25
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I very hesitantly approach you bbyrd, hoping we do not repeat past mistakes. But, I just wanted to ask you...what DO you see happening in the future? You don't believe in the rapture, or Christ's return. Do you see an end to things at all? How do you see such things?
Paul was speaking to biblical Jews at the time. Those circumcised before Calvary. When that generation died off, nothing remained to make anyone a physical biblical Jew. They had only the name and customs. In fact, they were the surviving pharisees.
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