Christian Universalism: Is it Scriptural?

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Veronica Moser

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Feb 22, 2008
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Will everyone be saved? This is a topic that I had given some thought to in the past. It was a topic that I had debated with several Christian Universalists over the years. I have recently begun meditating upon this subect again, and I'd like to initiate an honest and careful investigation into the merits of Christian Universalism. Let me say from the get-go that I am not a Christian Universalist. I do not believe that all people will eventually be saved. My opinion is that the Biblical evidence that only some will be saved far outweighs any evidence there might be for Universal Salvation. That being said, I am still open to the evidence for this doctrine. In this thread, I'd like to challenge us to scrutinze the evidence for and against Universal Salvation. To begin, I will quote the words of a Christian Universalist who recently defended his doctrine via online debate at another forum. The topic of his post is centered upon the Greek word aionios, the meaning thereof often being a matter of dispute between Partialists and Christian Universalists. The latter will often argue that aionios does not mean "eternal" and that it simply means "pertaining to an age" or something like that. I remain completely unconvinced by what I regard as utter naivety. However, I was taken back when I came across the following argument put forth by Samuel Cripps, a Christian Universalist:("Samuel Cripps")
Aionios and the Biblical Concept of EternityMy opponent has stated that Hellfire is eternal. I agree. Many might find this an odd thing for a Scriptural Universalist to say, but I have no reservations in admitting as much. To be sure, there have been a number of Christian Universalists who have insisted that the Greek word aionios never means “eternal” and that it always, in the Bible at least, pertains to an indefinite period of time. While it is true that aionios is, at times, used in contexts where “eternal” is impossible if not unlikely, I cannot, in good conscience, adopt this narrow view. Scholarship and context have proven that this rich Greek word indeed carries the meaning of eternity. Does aionios mean ‘eternal’ in the verses (Matthew 3:12; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; Jude 1:7) cited by my opponent? I believe that it does. Does this prove that some will never be saved? Not at all!My opponent insists that eternal punishment consists in being punished forever. Does his interpretation represent the only viable application of the term aionios? No, it is not, for consider:“Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].” Hebrews 9:12Does this verse mean that the redeeming process lasts forever? Of course not! Rather, it is the end result of the process which is everlasting. Seeing that the word “eternal” is applied in this manner in Hebrews 9:12, my opponent must demonstrate why “eternal punishment” refers to an everlasting punitive process rather than referring to the final result of the punishing process.What is the Biblical concept of eternity? First it must be noted that God is the only eternal being in the primary sense. That is to say, only God is eternal by virtue of being who He is. All other things are eternal only insofar as they derive their eternality from God. Our eternal life, for instance, is participatory; we partake in the life of Christ. Eternal destruction, I thus propose, is eternal by virtue of originating in God. In other words, to suffer eternal destruction is to suffer destruction at the hands of God, as opposed to destruction at the hands of mortals (this idea is articulated in Matthew 10:28). Likewise, eternal life is that sort of life which is peculiar to God, in contrast to mortal life. Eternity, according to the Bible, is without beginning nor end, and thus transcends time (Revelation 1:8 , 22:13). As mentioned before, the Greek word translated “eternal” in many places in the Bible is aionios. From its first known appearance in Greek literature (see the works of Plato, e.g. Timaeus 37d), aionios was used of that which transcends the physical world of time. This sense is retained in the New Testament, as is evident considering that this word is routinely used in the New Testament contexts in which its juxtaposition to things perishable and material is manifest. "For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens." - 2 Corinthians 5:1 Here aionios is used of the indissoluble things of Heaven in contrast to the things of the mundane world of corruption. "While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen [are] temporal; but the things which are not seen [are] eternal." -2 Corinthians 4:18 In this verse, aionios describes the eternal truths which human eyes and ears have not seen nor heard, for these truths belong to the unseen realm of God as opposed to the visible world of change.. "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed." - John 6:27 Aionios here refers to that Heavenly life which does not fade nor falter; It is the very life of Christ in contradistinction to the perishable life that humanity has in Adam. This life that Christ gives - the very life of God - is not of this world, but is of the unseen realm of Spirit: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the spirit is spirit." - John 3:6 So then, what do we make of those verses which speak of "eternal destruction" and "eternal punishment"? I suggest that it is the sort of destruction/punishment which originates in the eternal God. "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" - 2 Thessalonians 1:8,9 Here we read that the wicked will be destroyed by Heavenly fire (note that the Greek word apo does not signify that the destruction consists in being away from God, but that the destruction comes from God). Eternal destruction, evidently, is none but destruction from on high, just as eternal punishment is simply that sort of perfect parental punishment which originates in the Heavenly Father. “In the same way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them committed sexual immorality and practiced perversions, just as they did, and serve as an example by undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.” Jude 1:7The word aionios here serves to make the point that the fire and punishment in view is not ordinary, but rather from God. The eternal fire is God Himself (Deuteronomy 4:24, Hebrews 12:29). If punishment by the fire of God precludes salvation, then we are all in big trouble, for Scripture declares that all believers will reap the consequences of what they have sown in the flesh (as opposed to things which they have sown in the Spirit) by being subjected to the trying fire of God (1 Corinthians 3:15; Galatians 6:7).
What does everyone make of this?
 

tomwebster

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Dec 11, 2006
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Veronica,We just got through talking about this. Why don't you go back and read what was written in that post?
 

Mighty Bear

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Oct 20, 2007
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It means we will never get rid of the past and we don't want to go back to it either, what has happened will be imprinted on our minds forever.Isaiah 65:17 ESV "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.John 12:32 ESV And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."1 Corinthians 15:22 ESV (22) For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.Revelation 21:8 ESV But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."
 

Mighty Bear

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Oct 20, 2007
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2 Corinthians 5:17 ESV Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.So what will burn for eternity is not really us but that which is our old self.
 

Veronica Moser

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Feb 22, 2008
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Veronica,We just got through talking about this. Why don't you go back and read what was written in that post?
Hi mTom. I read aquilas' thread. It was a dead-end from the get-go. Aquilas approach to the subject is muh different than this Samuel Cripps' is. I have read many debates on thsi subject and they are usually very unproductive due to, in part, the rigidity of certain Christian Universalists views on the word aionios (they often claim that it doesn't mean eternal). Cripps, however, concedes that aionios ndoes mean eternal and presents an alternative way of understanding the eternality of punishment in hell. I was hoping to discuss this.
 

Veronica Moser

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Feb 22, 2008
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("Mighty Bear")
So what will burn for eternity is not really us but that which is our old self.
That sounds pretty deep! So are you suggesting that the onl thing that will burn forever in the lake of fire is the false self? What about unbelievers?
 

Red_Letters88

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Jan 5, 2008
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(Veronica Moser;54908)
That sounds pretty deep! So are you suggesting that the onl thing that will burn forever in the lake of fire is the false self? What about unbelievers?
It sounds like man-made garbage.MightyBear- show me just 1 verse in context that shows this new age idea
 

Veronica Moser

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Feb 22, 2008
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("Redletter88)
It sounds like man-made garbage.
Why do you say that?
MightyBear- show me just 1 verse in context that shows this new age idea
Ditto, although I'm not sure I'd call it a new age idea.
 

Red_Letters88

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Jan 5, 2008
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Well ok- this idea might be older somewhere from someone but I call it new-age cause all this "heavens just a state of mind" "your conscious isn't aware of hell..." eastern religion ideas.But seriously....still waiting for those verses
 

Veronica Moser

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Feb 22, 2008
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("red letter")
Well ok- this idea might be older somewhere from someone but I call it new-age cause all this "heavens just a state of mind" "your conscious isn't aware of hell..." eastern religion ideas.
I don't know what you're talking about, but the subject of this thread is Christian Universalism, ie. the doctrine that all sinners will finally be saved through Jesus Christ. Why do you call this doctrine new age?
 

Red_Letters88

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Jan 5, 2008
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(Veronica Moser;55038)
I don't know what you're talking about, but the subject of this thread is Christian Universalism, ie. the doctrine that all sinners will finally be saved through Jesus Christ. Why do you call this doctrine new age?
Im not calling universalism new-age...I was talking about MightyBears take on those verses... the one you said sounded deep...which I said sounded like new age man made garbage.
 

Veronica Moser

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Feb 22, 2008
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("red letter")
Im not calling universalism new-age...I was talking about MightyBears take on those verses... the one you said sounded deep...which I said sounded like new age man made garbage.
Ok, ok. I'm sorry for misunderstanding you. Let's revisit what MighyBear said:("Mighty Bear")
So what will burn for eternity is not really us but that which is our old self.
You commented on this, saying:
"heavens just a state of mind" "your conscious isn't aware of hell..." eastern religion ideas.
I'm not seeing how you can interpret Mighty Bear's statement this way. What is it that you think he is saying exactly? Maybe we need to make sure we're on the same page here.
 

Mighty Bear

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Oct 20, 2007
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It means when we die we are transformed into something else so second death is still death, it's just we die a second time, it's like we're looking in a mirror and we don't see exactly us but who we used to be.1 Corinthians 15:36 ESV (36) You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.1 Corinthians 15:26 ESV (26) The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
 

jtartar

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Mar 14, 2008
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(Veronica Moser;55038)
I don't know what you're talking about, but the subject of this thread is Christian Universalism, ie. the doctrine that all sinners will finally be saved through Jesus Christ. Why do you call this doctrine new age?
veronica Moser, In the first place there surely is no such concept as Christian Universalism, since this concept is NOT Christian. This is called, either Universalism or Apocatastasis. When Jesus was on earth he often warned about Gehenna, Matt 5:22,29,30, 18:8,9, Matt 23:33, Mark 9:43-48. This is a place different from Hades. It would make on sense for Jesus to warn about Hades, since all men would go there, Ps 89:48, 34:15. Notice that Gehenna is a fire that cannot be put out. Gehenna is then another name for the Lake of Fire, the Second death, mentioned at Rev 20:14,15. 21:8. Let's consider a few things that Jesus said, Matt 7:13,14, where he said few are the ones who go in through the narrow gate, which leads to everlasting life. Consider what Jesus told a man who asked him if those being saved were few, Luke 13:23,24. Consider what is recorded at 2Pet 2:4-10. Notice the things that happened to the people mentioned were an EXAMPLE for us, a pattern of things to come. Revelation 16:16, mentions Armageddon, verses 13,14 mention that the armies of the Kings of the earth are gathered to fight against Jesus and his armies, Rev 19:19. At Revelation 19:11- 21 we have a description of Armageddon. God has called all the birds to gather at this great evening meal, Rev 19:9,17. Many will make up this meal!!! We have other descriptions of what will take place on this Great Day of Jehovah God, Jere 25:30-33, Notice that it speaks of ALL the nations of the earth. Zeph 1:14-18, is another prophecy of the end times, Armageddon. Matt 25:31-34,41 tells about the going away to everlasting cutting off, in the everlasting fire, Matt 25:46. The vast majority of mankind does not really care about our Almighty God, the creator of everything, the giver of every good and perfect gift, James 1:17, so they will not survive Armageddon, but will go into the Lake of Fire and sulfur, The Second Death, Matt 7:15,16,21-23, Titus 1:16, 2Pet 2:21, 1John 2:4,6, James 2:17,26. God's purpose is to make this earth a paradise. That would be impossible if He did not remove all who do not want to obey Him, Col 3:5,6; Rom 3:5,6.
 

Veronica Moser

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Feb 22, 2008
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But jtartar, you have yet to demonstrate that hell is not remedial. Indeed, no sin can enter Heaven, but this fact is compatible with apocatastasis. I'm no universalist, but let's get at least get it straight.