1 Cor. 15:20-28

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RichardBurger

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First I wish to say that what is written in this post is what I believe. I do not write it to refute, or criticize anyone. I give everyone the right to believe as they wish. I also take that right for myself. I offer this post as food for thought.My interpretation of 1 Cor. 15:20-2820 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.*** No one had been resurrected into new bodies that will not die until Christ. He is the firstfruit.21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.*** Indeed, "All men shall be resurrected from the dead (made alive)." The use of the word "all" is inclusive and means all. In John 5:27-29 below we see again that “all” men will be resurrected.23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.*** NOTE, NOTE; The statement "But each one in his own order" indicates that there is a set order (time) for each event. It is also important to notice the words "those who are Christ's at His coming." There is no mention of those who are not Christ's because they will not be resurrected at His coming. This is important and must not be overlooked. --- It should also be noted that between verse 23 and 24 there will be an earthly kingdom rule of Christ for a thousand years.24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.(NKJ)*** During the 1000 year rule of Christ (verse 25) there will be people who are still in the flesh living on the earth and Christ will rule over them. These people can still die (their first death). It should be noticed that those who died ""without"" Christ have not been resurrected because it is not yet their time. At the end of Christ's rule on earth all the remaining dead will be resurrected and death of the flesh will be destroyed. But not the "Second Death." Flesh bodies will no longer exist. Only resurrected bodies that do not die will exist. In the statement "The last enemy that will be destroyed is death" THERE IS NO MENTION OF "THE SECOND DEATH." At this time there will be the "Great White Throne Judgment." All names that are NOT found written in the "Book of Life" will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, which is "THE SECOND DEATH." (see John 5:27-29 and Revelations 20:12-15 below). If death and the second death are the same death then why call it by another name?John 5:27-29 . (NIV)27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice29 and come out-- those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.Verse 29 Those who have done evil will rise from the first death of the flesh and then die the 'Second Death.'*** Although "ALL" will be resurrected not "all" will be saved. Some will die the "second death" mentioned in the scriptures. The second death is being in the lake of fire separated from God. But they will finally know that God exists and that they rejected Him. They will know it forever. As the scriptures say "all men will be drawn to Christ," some to be the children of God and some to be judged by Christ. It is written in John 3:18; "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Jesus is the rightful judge. For those that say the word condemned does not mean that the person will not go to heaven let me give another reference; John 3:36, "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." The message is very clear 'shall not see life.'Rev 20:12-1512 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.(NKJ)This is how I see it. There is no way to get around having a personal relationship with Christ in your HEART so that he will be able to claim you as His own.In Christian love,Richard
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Thaddaeus

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RichardBurger,
NOTE, NOTE; The statement "But each one in his own order" indicates that there is a set order (time) for each event. It is also important to notice the words "those who are Christ's at His coming." There is no mention of those who are not Christ's because they will not be resurrected at His coming. This is important and must not be overlooked. --- It should also be noted that between verse 23 and 24 there will be an earthly kingdom rule of Christ for a thousand years.
There is an order, but there is no time indicated, except at the end. Which is when all men will be raised. Rev 20:12-13, Acts 23:6, Acts 24:15, I don't see any earthly kingdom in between vs 23-24. I don't see any such thing in all of scripture.Christ's reign is in progess as we discuss this.
If death and the second death are the same death then why call it by another name?
They are not the same. Scripture never treats them as the same. there are also two resurrections to balance the two deaths. One is physical, the condemnation of Adam, death upon all mankind. Christ restored LIFE to man, as I Cor 15:20-22 attest. The first resurrection is the spiritual resurrection of beleivers. It is baptism, Rom 6:3-6, but the whole chapter explains the regeneration of a believer. This is the spiritual experince of being buried and raised with Christ. It corresponds to the second death, spiritual death, eternal spiritual separation from God. those that do not believe do not partake of the first resurrection. This is explained in Rev 20:5.
 

Rank Stranger

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See Revelation 20 to understand that there will be a thousand-year reign of Jesus (verse 4), and the Jews and others will serve Him during that time. Satan will be chained in the pit during this time, and will be released after its conclusion. The Bible says, "be loosed a little season". Then he will join all lost sinners in the lake of fire after the final judgement. The original post was a good one, and right on the money for the most part.Rank Stranger
 

Thaddaeus

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Rank Stranger,
See Revelation 20 to understand that there will be a thousand-year reign of Jesus (verse 4), and the Jews and others will serve Him during that time. Satan will be chained in the pit during this time, and will be released after its conclusion. The Bible says, "be loosed a little season". Then he will join all lost sinners in the lake of fire after the final judgement.
The Messianic Age is in progress. Christ is already on the Throne and the Saints are ruling with Him Now. Satan has been bound already. Christ defeated death at His resurrection. It was the fulfilment of the promise of Gen 3:15 that Christ, the Messiah, would come to correct or reverse the fall, the condemnation of death. Christ decended into Hades and took captive those held in captivity. Satan being bound is not about his effectiveness, or that he is held powerless to seek and to devoure. It has to do with death. Satan ruled this world through the power of death. When Christ took on our fallen human natures and raised them to life, death was defeated. Christ did not eradicate death for us in this life. Our physical death, the consequence of the condemnation through Adam, all men will die once, is for the purpose of shedding the flesh, the body of sin from us, so that we can arise immortal and incorruptible. Here are the texts with comment that will support the binding of Satan at Christ's resurrection.First some things to identify Satan. He is a spirit. His dwelling place is the earth. He is ruler of the air, the mind. He works not by force but by lies and manipulation. See Story of Eve. St. Paul speaks of him as the prince of the air.(Eph.2:2). The Bible also calls his realm, his house. Because of the curse God put on Lucifer, in the Garden for decieving Eve, the world has been given over to Satan. His influence and power grew. Man continued to move further from God. Read the OT prior to Noah. The sickness of sin, death, was the norm and all men who had suffered the first death (body) would also suffer the second death (soul) were it not for God's undeserved grace in the gift of His Son. There are numerable texts that describe Christ as a robber, thief Matt 26:25, transgressor Is 53:12 and in Rev 3:3 as a thief again. Then Luke 12:39 Jesus calls Satan a good man. A good man if he had known would have watched and not have his house broken into. Matt 12:29. Jesus states that he bound the "strong man". By so doing He, Jesus would be able to take the spoils, goods from his possession. Satan had unlimited power here on earth. Luke 4:5-6. The story of Christ's temptations where satan had the power to give Christ all kingdoms. Some similarities. Christ's second coming will be witnessed first in Satan's realm, the realm of air and we will know that Satan has been totally conquered. Also, Matt 24:27. The devil works via the mind, but so does Christ. Rom 12:2, Phil 2:5. The binding of Satan. When Christ was crucified His death represented the first death that would be the end of man if not redeemed. He decended into Hell. When he rose from the dead, Christ had bound Satan, in that He now has limited power over the the first death. Death is no longer the end of man, of the universe. Christ also took with him those of the OT saints. This is the taking of the spoils of the strong man, Satan. Rev 20: 1-3. The devil is bound in that he lost some of his power over death and Hades. From the time of Christ's first coming Christ's Church is formed where the Gospel is preached. Man is summoned to the Kingdom of God and the devil is barred from preventing their entrance into it. The abyss refers to the hearts of those who have rejected God. That is the evil one sees in the world today. Satan is working mightly to overcome but knows that he will fail. Texts dealing with Satan Bound: 1. Mt 12:29 2. Mk 3:22-27 3. Lk 10:17-19 4. Jn 12:30-32 5. Eph 4:8 6. Col 2:15 7. Zech 13:2
 

RichardBurger

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Rank Stranger, The Messianic Age is in progress. Christ is already on the Throne and the Saints are ruling with Him Now.
So, when God promised the Jews they would have a physical kingdom on this earth and that God's king would sit on David's throne in that kingdom, He really didn't mean it. He has changed His mind and will no longer cause it to happen.There are many scriptures that support a 1,000-year reign of the Christ on this earth.Acts 1:6-86 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?"7 And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. NKJVGod will set up a Jewish kingdom on this earth. He keeps His promises.Richard
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Thaddaeus

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Richardburger,
So, when God promised the Jews they would have a physical kingdom on this earth and that God's king would sit on David's throne in that kingdom, He really didn't mean it. He has changed His mind and will no longer cause it to happen.
He never promised an earthly Kingdom. The error of of the Isrealites was to interpret it as a secular ruler. Even the prophets did not indicate an earthly Kingdom. There is a difference of prophecy of the Messiah, and the prophecy in that Isreal would return from captivity and be restored to the land that they once possessed. But there is no scripture anywhere that indicates and earthly reign of the Messiah. Christ Himself denies that His Kingdom is of this world. Why would it be of this world?
There are many scriptures that support a 1,000-year reign of the Christ on this earth.
There are only two possible but they are overturned by a lot of other scriptures to the contrary.
Acts 1:6-86 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?"7 And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. NKJVGod will set up a Jewish kingdom on this earth. He keeps His promises.
I believe He will also, but He has not made such a promise, so far. The text you quote does not proclaim an earthly kingdom. Here are some that preclude any kind of earthly kingdom of Christ.Let's go back to the beginning and the promise made to David: And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever. (2 Sa. 7:12-16).Three things were promised and three things were fulfilled. When were they fulfilled?David’s house (royal family) was established in the first century. Matthew begins his gospel by proclaiming Christ to be the Son of David, the Son of Abraham (Matt. 1:1). Many centuries before God had promised, through the prophet Amos, to raise up the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down, and repair its damages (Amos 9:11).As well, in the OT the 'throne of God' is the same as 'throne of David'. The royal 'tabernacle' had been lost by Isreal when they left the theocracy. It was lost by Judah when they were carried off into Babylon.David’s throne was established when God raised up the Christ to sit on his throne and exalted Him to the right hand of God (Acts 2:29-36). Christ told the church at Laodicea, To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne (Rev. 3:21).One must wonder who's throne it was in the first place. God had promised, even to Jacob, that kings would rule over Isreal. When Saul was crowned the first King and the people begged God to give them their king, this is what God said to Samuel: ‘Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them.’ (1 Sam. 8:7).The kings therefore were ruling Israel in place of God. It is not the other way around. This is what David said: And of all my sons (for the Lord has given me many sons) He has chosen my son Solomon to sit on the throne of the kingdom of the Lord over Israel (1 Chron. 28:5).
 

RichardBurger

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It was said: “He never promised an earthly Kingdom. The error of the Israelites was to interpret it as a secular ruler. Even the prophets did not indicate an earthly Kingdom. There is a difference of prophecy of the Messiah, and the prophecy in that Israel would return from captivity and be restored to the land that they once possessed. But there is no scripture anywhere that indicates and earthly reign of the Messiah. Christ Himself denies that His Kingdom is of this world. Why would it be of this world?”****John 18:3636 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here." NKJVFunny that so many miss the word “now.” Why did Jesus us it in the above?Many want the verse to say “Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but (---) My kingdom is not from here." NKJVUsing the word “now” leaves it open as to when it will be "from here".It was said: "There are only two possible but they are overturned by a lot of other scriptures to the contrary."****So you have scriptures overturning other scriptures. Amazing!!Richard
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Thaddaeus

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RichardBurger,
Using the word “now” leaves it open as to when it will be "from here".
but the Greek does not mean what you want it to mean. It means more of, 'as it is". It also would refute the very direct statment Christ made just one phrase before. His Kingdom is not of this world, now or in the future or any time. It just is not of this world. Did Jesus contradict Himself?
So you have scriptures overturning other scriptures. Amazing!!
Not I, but dispensationalists. That is the problem with every error. There is usually more text refuting their premise than what they seemingly want to support it. This is a very good example.
 

Christina

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RichardBurger, but the Greek does not mean what you want it to mean. It means more of, 'as it is". It also would refute the very direct statment Christ made just one phrase before. His Kingdom is not of this world, now or in the future or any time. It just is not of this world. Did Jesus contradict Himself? Not I, but dispensationalists. That is the problem with every error. There is usually more text refuting their premise than what they seemingly want to support it. This is a very good example.
baloney try reading revelation and where Gods kingdom will be Gods Kingdom is where he is. At that time it was heaven in the future its Earth and its dispensationalists that fit all pieces of the Word together instead of leave out what doesn't fit. All the other views tried to interpt everything future by the past types because the books were not all open to us now that they are open Men as normal hang on to there traditions reguardless of Gods Word
 

Thaddaeus

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Kriss,
baloney try reading revelation and where Gods kingdom will be Gods Kingdom is where he is. At that time it was heaven in the future its Earth and its dispensationalists that fit all pieces of the Word together instead of leave out what doesn't fit. All the other views tried to interpt everything future by the past types because the books were not all open to us now that they are open Men as normal hang on to there traditions reguardless of Gods Word
a good assertion but you have not given any evidence to show that it might stand. Any historical evidence? Any scriptural evidence? Can you refute the texts that I gave that have always been understood from the beginning. Scripture that has stood without man putting forth his own interpretation.
 

Christina

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Kriss, a good assertion but you have not given any evidence to show that it might stand. Any historical evidence? Any scriptural evidence? Can you refute the texts that I gave that have always been understood from the beginning. Scripture that has stood without man putting forth his own interpretation.
Rev. 5:10Here you go documentationhttp://www.christianityboard.com/meek-shal...55147#post55147
 

Thaddaeus

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Kriss,
First thing we must notice is this says the EARTH not Heaven"I go [to heaven] to prepare a place for you” (14:2). Most assume Jesus is referring to preparing a place in heaven. Yet in the very next verse, Jesus said, “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again [to the earth], and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there you may be also” (vs. 3).Where is this?Many are familiar with Jesus’ “Sermon on the Mount.” A clear statement on a Christian’s reward is found in this series of scriptures. However, it does not contain the word “heaven.” While most know of this sermon, few know of this important verse: “Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth” (Matt. 5:5).Psalm 37:11 states the same thing. It would not have been strange for Jesus to reference Psalms, since all His listeners would have been familiar with this scripture. But to have said that “the meek shall inherit heaven” would have been strange to their ears. Amazingly, the opposite is true today! Most think it is strange to believe that Christians will inherit the earth! Consider what the apostle John recorded in the book of Revelation: “And has made them [true Christians] unto our God kings and priests: and they shall reign on the earth” (Rev. 5:10).The reward of God’s saints is future rulership “on the earth”—as “kings and priests.” How obvious!In Matthew 25, Jesus describes His Return to “sit upon the throne of His glory: And before Him shall be gathered all nations” (vs. 31-32). Jesus is pictured in this parable as ruling all the nations of the earth—on the earth, not in or from heaven! At that point, He says to the saints, “Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you” (vs. 34). Right now, Jesus is in heaven preparing a kingdom for His people to inherit on earth! Christians will not join Jesus in heaven. He will “come again” to earth, where true Christians will join Him!Seems Very few people understand this fundamental biblical teaching. Have You been taught that God’s purpose for Christians is to inherit and reign on earth? Will you believe the plain words of Jesus Christ? Will you believe His statements that “no man "(flesh) has ascended up to heaven”—and that the meek “shall inherit the earth”?mankind’s is allotted 6,000 years, Then what? In that same day Jesus’ feet will descend on the Mount of Olives overlooking Jerusalem on the east (Zech. 14:4).“We read in Revelation 20:1-2 that at the time of Christ’s coming, Satan shall be removed from the throne of world rulership. Jesus Christ will then sit on that throne over the whole earth. In Revelation 3:21, Jesus said to those in his own true church, that if we overcome Satan and the evils of this world, he will grant that we will sit with him on that throne.“Jesus also said in Revelation 2:26-27 that if we, his own people, overcome we will be given power over the nations, and we shall rule them, under Christ. We who are true believers in his own church,that overcome until the End, shall be priests and kings, and we shall reign on the earth.”
there is nothing here that changes what has always been believed. You have simply moved it from now to some future date, which will not exist. the Church ONLY exists in the current dispensation. When Christ comes again, will only come once more, it is to judge the world. He will winnow the Church, purify the Church and present the Church to the Father pure and spotless. It is at that time that all rule will end. There is no Kingdom on this earth that Christ will rule from earth. He rules now, those that die IN Christ will reign with Him now, in this dispensation until He comes again. It is simple prooftexting to support a premise that is very modern and the develop of man not but a hundred years ago. How can that be Gospel, the Gospel ONCE given to the saints, Jude 3. There is nothing in Scripture that even hints at any kind of earthly Kingdom without ignoring most of scripture to the contrary, and then redefining words and meaning of texts in isolation of the rest of scripture.It should be quite obvious that when Christ comes again, He will come to earth. But coming to earth to judge the world does not mean to establish some earthly Kingdom. Here is more scriptural evidence that an earthly Kingdom is not possible, but must of necessity actually deny many parts of scripture that most Christians believe.It might do all dispensationalist well to read (Jer. 22:30). It quite explicity throws out an earthly kingdom of Christ or even David's throne on the earth. To understand this curse one must follow the genealogies.(1 Chron. 3:16; Jer. 22:24). (1 Chron. 3:17; Matt. 1:12). Christ is a descendant of Shealtiel (Matt. 1:12).Then read: Ezekiel 21:27ff. Then jump to : Lk. 1:26-33. Therefore, since Christ is a descendant of Coniah, He cannot sit on the throne of David and rule in Judah! The truth is that Christ is on the throne of David but not in the land of Judah. He is on the throne of David in heaven where He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet (1 Cor. 15:25).When Our Lord returns it will not be for the purpose of establishing an earthly kingdom. He is at this very moment the King of kings and Lord of Lords (Rev. 17:14). He rules as sovereign King in His kingdom right now. When He returns He will deliver the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power (1 Cor. 15:24).If it were not for the fact that Christ is on the 'throne of David' attonement could not have taken place.(Hebrews 8:1; Psalm 110:4).Again, the Gentiles are without hope if Jesus is not on David's throne: Acts 15:13-18.That is taken from my Bible. It must be much different than the Bible used by dispensationalist. They overlook everything that does not make an earthly kingdom, yet the Bible never speaks of an earthly kingdom but Christ explicity makes the claim His Kingdom is not of this world.All of the prophecies of the OT speak directly at the coming of Christ, the first time. This age, the messianic age is the fulfillment of all of these prophecies. If this were not so, then this age is a fairy tale. We are all living in limbo until such time that this EARTHLY kingdom is established.Jesus is not only raised from the dead but has been exalted and crowned King of kings and Lord of lords 1Tim. 6:15. Jesus reigns on the heavenly throne of David at the right hand of God Heb. 12:2.It is now, in this messianic age that you and I can be called out of darkness and be translated into the kingdom of God's dear Son, wherein there is fullness and joy... There is no hope for anyone in some non-existant future earthly kingdom which is the voice of Satan today in this world.These are just some of the details which refute any dispensational theory and any kind of millennial reign. To do so one must overlook a host of text which explicitly refute any claims made by most dispensationalist. It might be noted that there are many variations of this theory, in and of itself a very good indicator that they are false. To make such claims scripturally, promoters must ignore 2000 years of history, and theology to the contrary.
 

RichardBurger

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Kriss,there is nothing here that changes what has always been believed. You have simply moved it from now to some future date, which will not exist. the Church ONLY exists in the current dispensation. When Christ comes again, will only come once more, it is to judge the world. He will winnow the Church, purify the Church and present the Church to the Father pure and spotless. It is at that time that all rule will end. There is no Kingdom on this earth that Christ will rule from earth. He rules now, those that die IN Christ will reign with Him now, in this dispensation until He comes again. It is simple prooftexting to support a premise that is very modern and the develop of man not but a hundred years ago. How can that be Gospel, the Gospel ONCE given to the saints, Jude 3. There is nothing in Scripture that even hints at any kind of earthly Kingdom without ignoring most of scripture to the contrary, and then redefining words and meaning of texts in isolation of the rest of scripture.It should be quite obvious that when Christ comes again, He will come to earth. But coming to earth to judge the world does not mean to establish some earthly Kingdom. Here is more scriptural evidence that an earthly Kingdom is not possible, but must of necessity actually deny many parts of scripture that most Christians believe.It might do all dispensationalist well to read (Jer. 22:30). It quite explicity throws out an earthly kingdom of Christ or even David's throne on the earth. To understand this curse one must follow the genealogies.(1 Chron. 3:16; Jer. 22:24). (1 Chron. 3:17; Matt. 1:12). Christ is a descendant of Shealtiel (Matt. 1:12).Then read: Ezekiel 21:27ff. Then jump to : Lk. 1:26-33. Therefore, since Christ is a descendant of Coniah, He cannot sit on the throne of David and rule in Judah! The truth is that Christ is on the throne of David but not in the land of Judah. He is on the throne of David in heaven where He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet (1 Cor. 15:25).When Our Lord returns it will not be for the purpose of establishing an earthly kingdom. He is at this very moment the King of kings and Lord of Lords (Rev. 17:14). He rules as sovereign King in His kingdom right now. When He returns He will deliver the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power (1 Cor. 15:24).If it were not for the fact that Christ is on the 'throne of David' attonement could not have taken place.(Hebrews 8:1; Psalm 110:4).Again, the Gentiles are without hope if Jesus is not on David's throne: Acts 15:13-18.That is taken from my Bible. It must be much different than the Bible used by dispensationalist. They overlook everything that does not make an earthly kingdom, yet the Bible never speaks of an earthly kingdom but Christ explicity makes the claim His Kingdom is not of this world.All of the prophecies of the OT speak directly at the coming of Christ, the first time. This age, the messianic age is the fulfillment of all of these prophecies. If this were not so, then this age is a fairy tale. We are all living in limbo until such time that this EARTHLY kingdom is established.Jesus is not only raised from the dead but has been exalted and crowned King of kings and Lord of lords 1Tim. 6:15. Jesus reigns on the heavenly throne of David at the right hand of God Heb. 12:2.It is now, in this messianic age that you and I can be called out of darkness and be translated into the kingdom of God's dear Son, wherein there is fullness and joy... There is no hope for anyone in some non-existant future earthly kingdom which is the voice of Satan today in this world.These are just some of the details which refute any dispensational theory and any kind of millennial reign. To do so one must overlook a host of text which explicitly refute any claims made by most dispensationalist. It might be noted that there are many variations of this theory, in and of itself a very good indicator that they are false. To make such claims scripturally, promoters must ignore 2000 years of history, and theology to the contrary.
This is your opinion and I, and many others, certainly don't share it. God promised the Jews (Israel) that they would have an earthly kingdom on this earth ruled by the Messiah and He will keep His promises.Thanks for the scriptures you have selected that you think support your opinion. However, if you are not studying the Bible from a dispensational viewpoint then you are just blending the word of God. You are not "rightly" dividing it. All of the scriptures are written for us but not all are written to us. You have to know the difference.Richard
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tim_from_pa

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I take it that Thaddaeus is coming to us from a Preterist perspective and does not believe in anything future.In that case, I will not convince this person, neither will a swinging 20-pound bag of rocks.However, for those of us that do believe in a future, earthly reign of Christ, this is based on Luke 1:32-33 where he will be given the earthly throne of King David. Jesus is not reigning from this earth now, but on the right hand of God the Father.The throne of David, although it is called the Lord's throne, is the earthly parallel to the spiritual one in heaven. As long as there is a sun and moon, in all generations (that includes NOW), the bible says someone will be reigning from this throne. Likewise, the tabernacle was the earthly copy of the heavenly things.When the bible is understood correctly, we notice that there is an earthly and heavenly fulfillment along side of each other like two sides of a coin. And this goes all the way into eternity when there will still be an earth and a heaven.The problem with some people's interpretation is they separate the two and perhaps say the one came first, done away with and now the other has come. It's as if they can't handle more than one concept at a time to dummy down their theology into a nice, compartmentalized package. But, to each their own. Maybe some people actually believe that because they only see heads side of the coin on the floor, that tails no longer exists and that side of the coin is gone (outta sight outta mind).
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Thaddaeus

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tim from pa,
I take it that Thaddaeus is coming to us from a Preterist perspective and does not believe in anything future.In that case, I will not convince this person, neither will a swinging 20-pound bag of rocks.However, for those of us that do believe in a future, earthly reign of Christ, this is based on Luke 1:32-33 where he will be given the earthly throne of King David. Jesus is not reigning from this earth now, but on the right hand of God the Father.
The only future is the end of time. Eternity. There is NOTHING in scripture, either explicit or implicit that there will ever be an Earthly Kingdom.
However, for those of us that do believe in a future, earthly reign of Christ, this is based on Luke 1:32-33 where he will be given the earthly throne of King David. Jesus is not reigning from this earth now, but on the right hand of God the Father
but Luke 1:32-33 is explicitly against an earthly Kingdom. From all my understanding of the so called millennial Kingdom on earth is that it is ONLY 1000 years long and will end. Luke says it shall never end, which is precisely the Kingdom that is in existance now. It shall never end.You make assertions but you do not back it with scripture. You have not even made an effort to refute the many texts that I have presented.Why Jesus will NEVER sit on an earthly throne! Hebrews 711 If therefore PERFECTION were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) What further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Mel-chis'-ed-ec, and not BE called after the order of Aaron?17 For He testifieth, Thou art a priest For Ever after the order of Mel-chis'-ed-ec.24 But this man, because He continueth ever, hath an UNCHANGEABLE priesthood.Christ is THE END of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth (Rom. 10:4).The priesthood of Christ will NEVER change from the order of Mel-chis'-ed-ec in Heaven, to the Levitical priesthood (under which the people received the law) on earth!Galatians 3:16 NOW to Abraham and his SEED were "the promises" made. He saith not, And to SEEDS, as of many; but as of ONE, and to thy SEED, which IS CHRIST.17 And this I say, that "the Covenant" that was CONFIRMED before of God IN Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot DISANNUL, that it should make "the Promise" of none effect.18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of Promise: but God gave it to Abraham by Promise.22 But the SCRIPTURE hath concluded ALL under sin, that "the promise" by FAITH of Jesus Christ might be GIVEN to them that BELIEVE.26 For ye are ALL the children of God by FAITH in Christ Jesus.27 For as many of you as have been Baptized INTO Christ have put on christ.28 There is NEITHER Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is NEITHER male nor female: for ye are ALL ONE in Christ Jesus.29 And if ye be Christ's THEN ARE YE ABRAHAM'S SEED, AND HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE.The KING and REDEEMER of Israel, have COME:But when the FULLNESS of the TIME was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.The Wise men of the east, the Chief Priest and the Scribes, ALL KNEW the Prophecies and the Scriptures, concerning Israel, and the Coming Messiah/King, BEFORE He came:MATTHEW 2:1 AND when Jesus was BORN in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, Behold, there came Wise Men from the east to Jerusalem,2 Saying, Where is He that is BORN KING of the JEWS? for we have seen His star in the east, and are come to WORSHIP HIM.3 When Herod the King had heard these things, he was TROUBLED, and ALL JERUSALEM WITH HIM.4 And when he had gathered ALL "the Chief Priest and Scribes" of the people together, he demanded of them where CHRIST should be BORN.5 And they said unto him, in Bethlehem of Judea: for IT IS WRITTEN by the Prophet,6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, art not the least among the princes of Judah: for out of thee shall come a GOVERNOR that shall rule ISRAEL.HE has COME,as prophesied:Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is BORN, unto us a Son is GIVEN: and the Government shall be upon his shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.7 Of the increase of His "Government and Peace" there shall be NO END, upon the THRONE of DAVID, and upon His KINGDOM, to order it with judgment and with justice from HENCEFORTH even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of Host will perform this.When the Fullness of time was come and Jesus was BORN (Lu.1:32-35, Matt. 28:18, Ep.1:22-23, Dan. 2:35,44, 7:14, 27, 9:24,25, Mic. 5:4-5, Heb. 7:2,3, 13:20, Rev. 19:16, Jo. 14:27, Ps. 45:4-6, 72:1-3,7, Heb. 1:8, Rev. 19:11).Acts 3:25 Ye are "the Children" of the Prophets and of "the Covenant" which God made with Abraham, And in thy SEED shall ALL kindreds of the earth be blessed.26 Unto you first God, having Raised Up His son Jesus SENT HIM TO BLESS YOU, IN TURNING AWAY EVERY ONE OF YOU FROM HIS INIQUITIES.The following texts clearly establish the prophecy and fulfillment of the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. ( Dan. 2:35, 44, 7:13-14, 27, 9:24, Lu.1:32-33, Matt. 28:18-20, Acts 3:18-21).The following texts all relate to the establishment of His Kingdom:Daniel 2:44 And in the days of "these" Kings shall the God of Heaven SET UP a KINGDOM which shall never be destroyed: and the Kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall "break" in pieces and "consume" all these Kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.Clue: Caesar Augustus (Lu. 2:1), Tibererius (Lu. 3:1, 20:22), Claudius (Acts 11:28), Nero (Acts 25:8, Phil. 4:22)!45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the STONE was "cut out" of the MOUNTAIN "without" hands, and That It brake in pieces the Iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold: the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass Hereafter: and the dream is certain and the interpretation sure.Clue: The STONE, cut out of the MOUNTAIN (Lu. 20:17,18, 1:32-33, 68-69).Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of "the inheritance" of the Saints in light:Who hath DELIVERED us from the power of darkness, and hath TRANSLATED us "into" the KINGDOM of His dear Son (Col. 1:12,13).Micah 5;2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth are from of old, From everlasting." Emphasis upon "Ruler IN ISRAEL".Jesus has FULFILLED that prophecy:Luke 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call His name JESUS.32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto Him the THRONE of His father David:33 And He shall REIGN over the house of Jacob for ever; and of His Kingdom there shall be NO END.Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your KING is coming to you; He is Just and having SALVATION, Lowly and riding on a DONKEY, a COLT, the FOAL of a DONKEY.MATTHEW 21NOW when they drew near Jerusalem, and came to Bethphage, at the MOUNT of OLIVES, then Jesus sent two disciples,2 saying to them, Go into the village opposite you, and immediately you will find a DONKEY tied, and a COLT with her. Loose them and bring them to Me. 3 And if anyone says anything to you, you shall say, The Lord has need of them,' and immediately he will send them. 4 All this was done that it might be FULFILLED which was spoken by the prophet, saying:5 Tell the daughter of Zion, Behold, your KING is Coming to YOU, lowly, and sitting on a DONKEY, A COLT, the FOAL of a DONKEY.The "Ruler" of Israel, the KING of Zion, CAME sitting on a DONKEY.It is almost unfathomable to think that after 2000 years there are some who still are looking for that earthly king. The dispensationalists have bought into the the same hope that the Jews had prior to and during Christ's ministry here on earth. Yet, even with the historical event past and the unmistakable Gospel of the NT that speaks so clearly against such a theory. The Lord hath "prepared" His THRONE in the HEAVENS; and His KINGDOM "Ruleth" over ALL (Ps.103:19).Find and texts that refute these texts explicitly.
When the bible is understood correctly, we notice that there is an earthly and heavenly fulfillment along side of each other like two sides of a coin. And this goes all the way into eternity when there will still be an earth and a heaven.
Maybe you can begin to refute the texts I have given so far. There are many more that are available, all speak explicitly against any future earthly Kingdom, on this earth.
 

RichardBurger

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Thaddaeus, You are looking for scriptures that refute your scriptures. So, obviously you think it is good Bible study to make one scripture make another one false. Can't you see that this is wrong???Instead, look for the reason that makes them all correct. Studying the scriptures from a dispensational viewpoint shows us the reason why they seem to conflict with each other.I agree with tim from pa that until you do you will never see anything but conflicting scriptures and you will continue to think that only the scriptures you pick are the correct ones.Richard
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Thaddaeus

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RichardBurger,
Thaddaeus, You are looking for scriptures that refute your scriptures. So, obviously you think it is good Bible study to make one scripture make another one false. Can't you see that this is wrong???
But that is the whole point. You will not find any that supports your view. It is soundly condemned by Scriptures themselves. Personal opinion or superinposing a presuppostion on scripture never works.
Instead, look for the reason that makes them all correct. Studying the scriptures from a dispensational viewpoint shows us the reason why they seem to conflict with each other.
There is no reason to make them correct. Any presupposition ignores most of scripture, which is why you can take a text and create a whole theology on one verse. It does not work, ever. It is simply man's opinion and not what Scripture has always meant and has been believed from the beginning, The Gospel once given to the saints, Jude 3.
I agree with tim from pa that until you do you will never see anything but conflicting scriptures and you will continue to think that only the scriptures you pick are the correct ones.
but that is how error and heresy have entered. Man putting his view, his own private interpretations upon scripture. All I see is suppositions and opinions conflicting with what Scripture itself states quite clearly. You cannot change what it always has meant.
 

RichardBurger

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(Thaddaeus;55263)
RichardBurger, But that is the whole point. You will not find any that supports your view. It is soundly condemned by Scriptures themselves. Personal opinion or superinposing a presuppostion on scripture never works. There is no reason to make them correct. Any presupposition ignores most of scripture, which is why you can take a text and create a whole theology on one verse. It does not work, ever. It is simply man's opinion and not what Scripture has always meant and has been believed from the beginning, The Gospel once given to the saints, Jude 3. but that is how error and heresy have entered. Man putting his view, his own private interpretations upon scripture. All I see is suppositions and opinions conflicting with what Scripture itself states quite clearly. You cannot change what it always has meant.
And in the end all you have is your opinion and of course it is the only one allowed so that you won't have to check to see if someone elses opinion is correct.Richard
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Thaddaeus

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RichardBurger,
And in the end all you have is your opinion and of course it is the only one allowed so that you won't have to check to see if someone elses opinion is correct.
My opinion matters nothing. It is how Scripture has always been understood from the beginning. If Scripture is left to opinion it becomes meaningless. It becomes a faith of one person, and you will have as many faiths as there are people's opinion, which it has become today. It is no longer One Lord, One Faith, but thousands lords, and thousands of faiths. Christ did not leave us His Gospel for man to tamper with it. It has been preserved, guarded against the private interludes of man. As long as Scripture is permitted to be the private domain and authority of each individual we will continue to have thousands of interpretations, none of which will be correct in total. It is, I'm sure, blissful to think that what he personally says scripture means is very comforting. You can devise a theology and faith that will literally guarantee you will be the king in heaven, literally. Here are more texts that explicitly deny any kind of earthly Kingdom of Christ.Jesus said, He was going to His Father's house to PREPARE a place for us, and COMING AGAIN to receive us to Himself, that where He IS there we may BE (Jo. 14:2-3), PREPARING a place in Heaven NOT, on the EARTH.The Scriptures, teach Jesus was born to REIGN on the Throne of David (Lu. 1:31-33. 69-70), and the Father EXALTED Him to sit on the Throne of David (Ac. 2:30-36).MANY in Israel, believed the Lord/Messiah/King and the KINGDOM of David had Come:Mark 11:8 And MANY spread their garments in the way: and OTHERS cut down branches off the trees, and strewed them in the way.9 And they that went before, and they that followed, cried saying, Hosanna; Blessed is He that Cometh in the name of the Lord:10 Blessed be the KINGDOM of our father David, that Cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest.1 Timothy 2:17 NOW unto the KING eternal, immortal, INVISIBLE, the only wise God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen. there will NEVER be a VISIBLE Kingdom upon the EARTH:Luke 17:20 And when He was demanded of the Pharisees, When the Kingdom of God should come, He answered them and said, The Kingdom of God COMETH NOT "with" OBSERVATION:21 NEITHER shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the Kingdom of God is WITHIN YOU.The King, REIGNS from the THRONE of David, in HEAVEN: NOW unto the KING eternal, immortal, INVISIBLE, the only wise God, be honor and glory FOR EVER and EVER. A'-men. 1 Timothy 2:17Another theory that sends "Dispensationalism" to the WASTEBASKET, is that of Jesus REIGNING from an earthly temple, after His Second Coming:Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after He had offered ONE SACRIFICE for "Sins" FOR EVER, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From HENCEFORTH expecting "till" His enemies be made His footstool.The Second Coming and Resurrection:1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; Afterward THEY that are Christ's "at" His COMING.24 Then Cometh THE END, when He shall have DELIVERED UP the KINGDOM to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.25 For He must REIGN, till He hath put ALL enemies under His feet.Notice:[1] Christ, is NOW in Heaven at the right hand of the Father:... from HENCEFORTH expecting till His enemies be made His footstool (Heb. 10:13).[2] Christ, ... For He must REIGN, till he hath put all enemies under His feet (1 Cor. 15:24).(Clearly show Christ is NOW REIGNING, from David's Throne (Lu. 1:32-33, Ac. 2:29-35), until He put ALL enemies under His feet).[3] At the Second Coming, Christ will DELIVER UP the Kingdom (that he have been REIGNING over) to the Father.THEN WHAT? Is the Father, supposed to sit upon a EARTHLY Throne of David, after Christ DELIVER UP the Kingdom to Him?Acts 17:24 God that made the World and ALL things therein, Seeing that He is Lord of Heaven and Earth, DWELLETH NOT IN TEMPLES MADE WITH HANDS.Jesus, is REIGNING from the Throne of David (Lu. 1:32-33, Ac. 2:30,36, Eph. 1:20-23, Rev. 3:7), with the Church (Saints, in LIFE) NOW:Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more THEY which "receive" abundance of grace SHALL REIGN in LIFE by one, Jesus Christ.HOW Shall They (Mortals) that received abundance of Grace... REIGN in LIFE (ALIVE) by one, Jesus Christ?Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that "so many of us" as were BAPTIZED "into" Jesus Christ were BAPTIZED into HIS DEATH.5 For IF we have been PLANTED TOGETHER in the "likeness" of His DEATH, we shall be also in the "likeness" of His RESURRECTION. Colossians 3:3 FOR YE ARE DEAD, and your LIFE is HID "with" Christ in God.4. When Christ, who is OUR LIFE shall APPEAR, then shall ye also APPEAR with Him in Glory.WE (the Church) ARE the SOULS, John, SAW in HEAVEN sitting upon THRONES, that REIGNED in LIFE (Mortal/FLESH Life) with Christ (Rom. 5:17):Revelation 20:4 And I SAW Thrones, and they sat upon them, and JUDGMENT was GIVEN UNTO THEM : and I saw the SOULS of them that were Beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had NOT Worshiped the Beast, neither his Image, neither had received his Mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they LIVED and REIGNED with Christ a THOUSAND YEARS.(... And Judgment was GIVEN unto them, JUDGED RIGHTEOUS, Compare, Dan. 7:9-14)!5 But the rest of the DEAD "lived not" again until the THOUSAND YEARS were finished.This is the First Resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath "part" in the First Resurrection: on such the Second Death hath no power, but they shall be Priests unto God and unto Christ, and shall REIGN with Him a THOUSAND YEARS.Notice, the Second Death hath NO power over those in the First RESURRECTION.The First Resurrection, are ALL the born again believers (that ever lived) which PASSED from DEATH to LIFE (1 Jo. 3:14), before the Second coming of Christ to Resurrect the Dead and Judge the world (Rev. 20:11-15).Isaiah 11:1 AND there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of JESSE, and a BRANCH shall grow out of His ROOTS.Jeremiah 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a KING shall reign and execute judgment and justice in the earth.6 In those days Judah shall BE SAVED, and Israel shall dwell safely: And this is the name whereby He shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.FULFILLED:Luke 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call His name JESUS.32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto Him the THRONE of His father DAVID:33 And He shall REIGN over the house of Jacob for ever; and of His KINGDOM there shall be no end.68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for He hath VISITED and REDEEMED His people,69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the HOUSE of DAVID.Compare:Revelation 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the ROOT of DAVID, hath PREVAILED to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you "these things" in the churches. I am the ROOT and the offspring of DAVID, and the bright and morning star.Zechariah 13:1 IN that day there shall be a FOUNTAIN OPENED To the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem For sin and for uncleaness.Perhaps, if you find out when the FOUNTAIN OPENED, you will know when (Zec. 12:1-14) was FULFILLED: Clue: When the FOUNTAIN OPENED (Water of Life).Consider: Jo. 1:29, 19:34-35, Eph. 5:25-27, 1 Jo. 1:7, 5:6, 1 Pet. 1:19, Rev. 1:5-6, 7:13-14, 21:6, 22:1Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And Whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely.Revelation 22, is present:Revelation 22:10 And He saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for THE TIME IS AT HAND.The Spirit and the bride is PRESENTLY, saying Come (Rev. 22:17).Jeremiah 33:14 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah. 15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. 16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.Jesus Christ, is the BRANCH (Zec.8, 6:12, Isa. 4:2, 11:1, 53:2, Jer.23:5, 33:15, Lu. 1:78:these are all scriptural texts that clearly refute any kind of earthly Kingdom. I never saw anything that spoke of an earthly Kingdom as dispensationalist think.
 

tim_from_pa

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You make assertions but you do not back it with scripture. You have not even made an effort to refute the many texts that I have presented.
Fella, I have more scriptures than you can shake a stick at. But I'd be wasting my time trying to convince someone who can't make sense out of something that hits one straight in the face.As for verses like Jeremiah 22:30, passages in Ezekiel 17 and Ezekiel 21 that you use to disprove an earthly throne, I actually use to prove there's one.Have you been open-minded enough to look at my genealogy in my signature? I though not. The same passages you (mis)quoted are used to explain it.As for Jesus being cursed because of Jeremiah 22:30, tell me why pray tell you'd want to worship a so-called Messiah that does not have the right to reign in Judah if the need arose, but he can reign from heaven? Tell me the logic in that? Never mind I asked.