Without unconditional Election,no one would be saved.

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justbyfaith

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Lazarus was not, is not, immortal. Only God is immortal.

See Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50, Matthew 25:46.

These verses would tell you that if God is good, the human soul is immortal; because the punishment being spoken of is eternal separation from God. And the human soul continues to be conscious (and alive) after this separation takes place so that there is weeping/wailing and gnashing of teeth identified as "everlasting punishment."
 
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brakelite

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They never do bro. It's a waste of time. They preach some carnal, worldly, free will, anti-gospel, philosophy of man, while hating on God's decrees and ways.
and I suppose God also ordained that you should be an arrogant know it all. Or are you choosing not to make a choice on that.

You are so off base presuming to condemn folk who profess faith in Christ but who do not subscribe to your version of events. What hypocricy to wrongly accuse others of working their way to heaven because they "choose to follow Christ" and trust in His grace and mercy but then turn around and claim they are dead in their sin still because despite their profession of Christ you decide they are lost because you judge God hasn't elected them!
I am not letting you squirm your way out of that. I repeat what I said above. You have condemned a person who professes Christ as lost and dead because he disagrees with your denominational biases. That is iuncalled for and totally contrary to the spirit of Christ.
You are in error when you teach that anyone can “work” their way to heaven and “choose” for Jesus.
I am not saying that the choice is not without God's input, He certainly offers us clear choices... But He doesn't make the choice for you. Nor does He spiritually rape people into a marriage relationship. Choosing is not working. Nor does anyone take personal credit for their choices. Jesus, by revealing His great love to us, made the choice such that one must resist the holy Spirit in order to reject Him. And yes. Love in its fullest agape sense must leave room for rejection... Or like I said, it becomes rape.
 
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Preacher4Truth

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and I suppose God also ordained that you should be an arrogant know it all. Or are you choosing not to make a choice on that.

More name calling. You don't have a biblical case at all. You do both of these often, name call, no biblical case. Have you considered what true conversion is, self-examination, true biblical interpretation? Truth? John 3:7? You should.


I am not letting you squirm your way out of that. I repeat what I said above. You have condemned a person who professes Christ as lost and dead because he disagrees with your denominational biases. That is iuncalled for and totally contrary to the spirit of Christ.

I am not saying that the choice is not without God's input, He certainly offers us clear choices... But He doesn't make the choice for you. Nor does He spiritually rape people into a marriage relationship. Choosing is not working. Nor does anyone take personal credit for their choices. Jesus, by revealing His great love to us, made the choice such that one must resist the holy Spirit in order to reject Him. And yes. Love in its fullest agape sense must leave room for rejection... Or like I said, it becomes rape.

Funny, you squirmed your way out of using Scripture properly in several instances. But, it doesn't bother you to misuse His word.

First of all, I don't squirm, nor do I need an out. I provide a biblical case, you name call and show yourself as a person of libel and as a Romans 9:20 man replying against God, attacking his people who preach truth.

Typical name calling is all you have as a retort other than your blaspheming of God's ways as rape.
 

Preacher4Truth

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What I would like to know is how does a Calvinist know he is saved if he had no part to play in the decision? If the Calvinist was not required to accept the gift... If he was not obligated to choose to accept or reject... How does he know he has it?
Because we believe, which is all from him; Ephesians 1:19, 1 Corinthians 1:26-31, 1 Peter 1:3.

Because we receive the things of the Spirit, the truths of his word; 1 Corinthians 2:14.

Because we have his sanctification ongoing within as evidence of conversion; Hebrews 12:14; 2 Timothy 2:19ff.

Because we self examine, and by grace pass tests of true conversion as per the book of 1 John.

Because we believe and know who the person of Christ is; John 8:24.
 

Preacher4Truth

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What I would like to know is how does a Calvinist know he is saved if he had no part to play in the decision? If the Calvinist was not required to accept the gift... If he was not obligated to choose to accept or reject... How does he know he has it?
Please show us in Scripture, plainly, where one is presented with a gift, and accepts the gift of salvation to be saved. Also, show us where anyone is saved by making a decision. John 1:13 plainly says this is not possible, but you can still try to disprove the fact we're not saved by choosing if you want.
 

marksman

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2 Timothy 2:25, Acts of the Apostles 5:31, Acts of the Apostles 11:18, Romans 2:4.

2 Tim 2:25. No mention of repentance being a gift.

Acts 5:31. He gave repentance to Israel so that they could experience forgiveness of sins is a generic term, not for individuals.

Acts 11:18. Again it is a generic term not applicable to individuals.

Romans 2:4. The kindness of God leads to repentance. No mention of God gifting us repentance.
 

marksman

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it is clear that faith comes by hearing as on the day of Pentecost and for the first believers they did not have anything written down because only the OT was available.

What they heard at Pentecost and believed was an exercise of faith in what they heard and you will note that in the beginnings of the church in Acts the teaching was verbal.

Until the letters came along that was the case always. It suggests that for faith to be activated people need to be told something.

Today we have the written word that conveys in the gospels what was said mainly and done. In other words, don't just take my word for it.

The letters were written mainly for the believers to teach them how to live and how the church should function. Most churches today ignore what is taught there as they are nothing like the church described in the letters.
 
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brakelite

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See Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50, Matthew 25:46.

These verses would tell you that if God is good, the human soul is immortal; because the punishment being spoken of is eternal separation from God. And the human soul continues to be conscious (and alive) after this separation takes place so that there is weeping/wailing and gnashing of teeth identified as "everlasting punishment."
First, two of those passages describe that some of the punishment that sinners suffer result in great sorrow and gnashing of teeth. It doesn't actually say what causes those things, but obviously its distressing. The last passage informs us that the punishment is forever. It does not say that punishing continues forever. You have it in your head that one is tormented for ever and ever and ever ad infinitum, but that is not what the scripture is saying. It simply says that the punishment is eternal...whatever that punishment is.
Your assumption (for that is all it is) that souls (whatever a soul is...we could discuss that shortly) are immortal flies in the face of scripture which declares categorically that only God has immortality. Now some, I repeat some, receive immortality as a gift, but not those who refuse to repent of sin...those who die in sin are not given the gift of eternal life. They literally die. Now think on that. They die...while everyone else lives. Life and death in any language, including Greek, Hebrew, Latin and English, and I dare say all other languages as well, are direct opposites. Life is just that...life. Death is the absence of life. It is dead. Completely and utterly lifeless. Else it isn't death. That is precisely why mankind needs a resurrection. From death to life. Life is the gift...death, and to remain dead, with no resurrection, is to not have life. Of any kind, and in any place. It is indeed separation, but how can anyone be separated from the only source of life, God, and yet live? They cannot. They are dead.
No where in scripture does it declare that the wages of sin is separation from God, as if it is merely a broken relationship. No, the wages of sin is DEATH, utter and complete cessation of life. No consciousness whatsoever.
None of those scriptures you quoted say what you would like them to say. Sorry.
 

justbyfaith

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Now, if you look at the understanding of the what the lake of fire is all about in Revelation 20:10, you will see that it is tormenting day and night for ever and ever.

Also, in Revelation 14:9-11, it is clear that the punishment there is for ever and ever, without rest day or night for ever and ever.

If we were to combine all of the scriptures together on eternal punishment rather than attempting to pick them apart one by one, we would see that the scripture clearly teaches everlasting conscious punishment in the lake of fire for those who never receive the forgiveness offered to them.

For this to be, it would also need to be true that for someone to perish in this way, every obstacle would have to be put in their way and every hindrance in the Universe presented to a person going there for all of eternity.

The testimony is sure.

People lie to themselves because they know that they aren't right with the Lord, and it is inconceivable in their minds that they would suffer the pain of sulfur for ever and ever because of it.

But it only makes the testimony that more compelling. The fact that there is such a huge punishment for rejecting Christ indicates that the sin of rejecting Christ must be grave indeed.

Also, Luke 16:19-31 is not a parable.
 
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justbyfaith

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You have a choice of accepting that it is not a parable; or you can reject this truth: but I would say that those who reject this truth do so because they have no desire to repent and they also want to believe that they can live an unrepentant life and that there will be no consequences. But the scripture is clear that there are consequences; even a situation where a man might beg the Lord to have Abraham come and dip his finger in water and cool his tongue, for "I am tormented in this flame."
 

SovereignGrace

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What I would like to know is how does a Calvinist know he is saved if he had no part to play in the decision? If the Calvinist was not required to accept the gift... If he was not obligated to choose to accept or reject... How does he know he has it?
How do I know I am saved? Because if left to myself I’d never chose God in 1,000,000 years. I loved sin and self more than Him. Scripture shows this to be true of everyone still lost in their sin.
 

SovereignGrace

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2 Tim 2:25. No mention of repentance being a gift.

Acts 5:31. He gave repentance to Israel so that they could experience forgiveness of sins is a generic term, not for individuals.

Acts 11:18. Again it is a generic term not applicable to individuals.

Romans 2:4. The kindness of God leads to repentance. No mention of God gifting us repentance.
God might grant repentance. Grant means to give.

Read Philippians 1:29.
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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marksman,

Hello MM,
Thanks for this question. let's see if we can clarify it a bit.

[You said, "The great blessing if the teaching of unconditional election is a great blessing to all saints throughout time".
If the teaching....what do you mean by that?]

Sorry, that might have been a phone post with auto correct...if, should have been OF..tHE GREAT BLESSING OF UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION...


[Election is not unconditional as the scripture says....Repent and be baptised and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.]
I think you are conflating two ideas here.
Election is unconditional in that God saw all mankind as fallen sinners under His just wrath and condemnation.
In love and mercy He elected a multitude of these sinners and draws them savingly to Jesus.
Look how scripture speaks of it in Romans9;

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Look at the solid wording found in the 1689 confession of faith.

Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling
1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )
2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )



[If you don't repent]
If you do not repent you are not elected unto salvation. Many are water baptized who are not saved.

[and are not baptised then you don't receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. So it is conditional.]

God is the author and finisher of our faith, it is all of God, and all of grace..totally unconditional
 

SovereignGrace

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marksman,

Hello MM,
Thanks for this question. let's see if we can clarify it a bit.

[You said, "The great blessing if the teaching of unconditional election is a great blessing to all saints throughout time".
If the teaching....what do you mean by that?]

Sorry, that might have been a phone post with auto correct...if, should have been OF..tHE GREAT BLESSING OF UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION...


[Election is not unconditional as the scripture says....Repent and be baptised and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.]
I think you are conflating two ideas here.
Election is unconditional in that God saw all mankind as fallen sinners under His just wrath and condemnation.
In love and mercy He elected a multitude of these sinners and draws them savingly to Jesus.
Look how scripture speaks of it in Romans9;

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Look at the solid wording found in the 1689 confession of faith.

Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling
1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )
2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )



[If you don't repent]
If you do not repent you are not elected unto salvation. Many are water baptized who are not saved.

[and are not baptised then you don't receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. So it is conditional.]

God is the author and finisher of our faith, it is all of God, and all of grace..totally unconditional
Yes! And the Christ met every condition needed to save His elected covenant ppl.
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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Yes! And the Christ met every condition needed to save His elected covenant ppl.
Many have received no teaching on unconditional election at all. It seems to scare them rather than be welcomed as the blessing it is. MM...we trust that God who is in complete control has elected the multitude of fallen sinners in His infinite wisdom. We trust Him to do right,
25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
 

SovereignGrace

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Many have received no teaching on unconditional election at all. It seems to scare them rather than be welcomed as the blessing it is. MM...we trust that God who is in complete control has elected the multitude of fallen sinners in His infinite wisdom. We trust Him to do right,
25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
If God doesn’t agree with them on everything, He is not worthy of their praise and worship. :( Ain’t it amazing God agrees with them on EVERYTHING? :(
 

justbyfaith

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How do I know I am saved? Because if left to myself I’d never chose God in 1,000,000 years. I loved sin and self more than Him. Scripture shows this to be true of everyone still lost in their sin.

Did you choose God? (is that how you know you are saved?)
 

justbyfaith

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If God doesn’t agree with them on everything, He is not worthy of their praise and worship. :( Ain’t it amazing God agrees with them on EVERYTHING? :(
We really do try to define the Lord by the holy scriptures and not by our own estimation of what we think He should be.
 
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brakelite

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Because if left to myself I’d never chose God in 1,000,000 years.
So at the instigation of God you did choose Him? Or are you saying your choosing Him was impossible, even with His help? If you didn't choose God, then my question stands. How do you know you are saved? How do you, SovereignGrace, know personally that you, as an individual, are a part of that elect chosen group destined for glory? You base you theology and hope in the scriptures, that there is a preordained group destined for salvation...but now where in scripture do I find your name. So on what is your personal hope resting on?
 
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brakelite

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For any readers that do not fully understand or are not overly familiar with the original beliefs of Calvinists, here they are as recorded in the Remonstrance which held Calvin's views as a new theology. The following are what the Dutch presenters of 'Remonstrance' considered to be the most extreme points as expounded in Calvin's Catechism and the Belgium Confession.

1. That God (as some asserted) had ordered by an eternal and irreversible decree, some from among men (whom He did not consider as created; much less as fallen) to everlasting life; and some (who were by far the greater part) to everlasting perdition without any regard to their obedience or disobedience, in order to exert both His justice and mercy; having so disposed the means, that those whom He had appointed to salvation should be necessarily and unavoidably saved, and the rest necessarily and unavoidably damned.

2. That God (as others taught) had considered mankind not only as created but as fallen in Adam, and consequently as liable to the curse; from which fall and destruction He had determined to release some, and to save them as instances of His mercy; and to leave others, even children of the Covenant, under the curse as examples of His justice, without any regard to belief or unbelief. To which end God also made use of means whereby the elect were necessarily saved and the reprobate were necessarily damned.

3. That, consequently, Jesus Christ the Saviour of the World did not die for all men, but only for those who were elected according to the first or second manner.

4. That therefore the Spirit of God and Christ wrought in the elect by an irresistible force in order to make them believe and be saved, but that necessary and sufficient grace was not given to the reprobate.

5. That they who had once received a true faith could never lose it wholly or finally.

I find some of the above not only utterly repugnant when compared to the revealed character of God in scripture, but wholly unbiblical and contrary to the character of God as revealed in the life of Christ.