Could the disciples have lost their salvation?

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Hidden In Him

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Greetings all, and blessings in Christ!

This is a continuation thread from one I started recently on the Parable of the Unmerciful Servant. In it, there was the suggestion that the servant of the Lord could be given over to "tormentors" if he refused to walk in forgiveness. Arguments were presented that these tormentors could not be demons since it would insinuate that a servant of God could be cast into Hell and thus lose his salvation.

I have a follow up question: What was the Lord telling His disciples in this passage then? The reference here is even more suggestive of eternal torment, should they disobey Him and turn to using their spiritual authority to abuse His church:

45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. 47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 24:45-51)
_____________________________________

To any for whom this thread may cause concern, it is not intended to create doubts in anyone's minds about their salvation. I believe those who are His have nothing to fear, provided they can abide by a few simple and reasonable rules. But there are a few things I believe He will not tolerate under any circumstances, and one of them is mentioned here. When His spiritual leaders turn to abusing His people instead of feeding and nurturing them spiritually, I believe their reward will be eternal suffering, where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

NOTE: Please answer the question in the OP before proceeding with any discussion: What was the Lord referring to by saying He would cut them in two and appoint them their portion with the hypocrites, where there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth?

Blessings in Christ to all who respond.
 
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Episkopos

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Greetings all, and blessings in Christ!

This is a continuation thread from one I started recently on the Parable of the Unmerciful Servant. In it, there was the suggestion that the servant of the Lord could be given over to "tormentors" if he refused to walk in forgiveness. Arguments were presented that these tormentors could not be demons since it would insinuate that a servant of God could be cast into Hell and thus lose his salvation.

I have a follow up question: What was the Lord telling His disciples in this passage then? The reference here is even more suggestive of eternal torment, should they disobey Him and turn to using their spiritual authority to abuse His church:

45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. 47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 24:45-51)
_____________________________________

To any for whom this thread may cause concern, it is not intended to create doubts in anyone's minds about their salvation. I believe those who are His have nothing to fear, provided they can abide by a few simple and reasonable rules. But there are a few things I believe He will not tolerate under any circumstances, and one of them is mentioned here. When His spiritual leaders turn to abusing His people instead of feeding and nurturing them spiritually, I believe their reward will be eternal suffering, where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

NOTE: Please answer the question in the OP before proceeding with any discussion: What was the Lord referring to by saying He would cut them in two and appoint them their portion with the hypocrites, where there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth?

Blessings in Christ to all who respond.

Well, for a proper understanding of one verse or idea it needs to be seen in the context of the whole counsel of God.

Cut-off: This is a common reference to God's people being cut off from His presence. If you do a study on this you will find many references to this. Paul feared being a cast-away (another way of saying cut off). Jesus warned of being spewed from His mouth. Half of the virgins in the parable of the same name (the 10 virgins) ....were sent away (rejected).

So if you know what you are looking for...you will find a host of warnings to this effect.

Even the day of atonement is about this....if you have eyes to see it.

The hypocrites are judged to be among the filthy....those who continually soil their garments...unable to keep them pure. These are cast out of the kingdom into outer darkness.

Jesus speaks of the filthy as does Jude who says that the blackness of darkness is reserved for them forever.
 

Hisman

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But even the Foolish Virgins were told to ‘Go and buy oil’ AND THEY DID. So they still had a relationship with the Holy Spirit!

This did not allow them into the wedding, but they had fresh oil and were now awake.
Manybe this is the time of the thousand years, that they were left out of?

I do not see this as Forever!
 
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bbyrd009

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Greetings all, and blessings in Christ!

This is a continuation thread from one I started recently on the Parable of the Unmerciful Servant. In it, there was the suggestion that the servant of the Lord could be given over to "tormentors" if he refused to walk in forgiveness. Arguments were presented that these tormentors could not be demons since it would insinuate that a servant of God could be cast into Hell and thus lose his salvation.

I have a follow up question: What was the Lord telling His disciples in this passage then? The reference here is even more suggestive of eternal torment, should they disobey Him and turn to using their spiritual authority to abuse His church:

45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. 47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 24:45-51)
_____________________________________

To any for whom this thread may cause concern, it is not intended to create doubts in anyone's minds about their salvation. I believe those who are His have nothing to fear, provided they can abide by a few simple and reasonable rules. But there are a few things I believe He will not tolerate under any circumstances, and one of them is mentioned here. When His spiritual leaders turn to abusing His people instead of feeding and nurturing them spiritually, I believe their reward will be eternal suffering, where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

NOTE: Please answer the question in the OP before proceeding with any discussion: What was the Lord referring to by saying He would cut them in two and appoint them their portion with the hypocrites, where there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth?

Blessings in Christ to all who respond.
so see your premise is flawed from the first sentence ok, bc a pit is dug for others to fall into so that you might attain the Elysian Fields tomorrow of course, rather than today. And so the def of "salvation" gets all warped, right after the def of "eternity" gets changed to "forever."

Little children, do not be deceived

seems plain enough to me
 

VictoryinJesus

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Greetings all, and blessings in Christ!

This is a continuation thread from one I started recently on the Parable of the Unmerciful Servant. In it, there was the suggestion that the servant of the Lord could be given over to "tormentors" if he refused to walk in forgiveness. Arguments were presented that these tormentors could not be demons since it would insinuate that a servant of God could be cast into Hell and thus lose his salvation.

I have a follow up question: What was the Lord telling His disciples in this passage then? The reference here is even more suggestive of eternal torment, should they disobey Him and turn to using their spiritual authority to abuse His church:

45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. 47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 24:45-51)
_____________________________________

To any for whom this thread may cause concern, it is not intended to create doubts in anyone's minds about their salvation. I believe those who are His have nothing to fear, provided they can abide by a few simple and reasonable rules. But there are a few things I believe He will not tolerate under any circumstances, and one of them is mentioned here. When His spiritual leaders turn to abusing His people instead of feeding and nurturing them spiritually, I believe their reward will be eternal suffering, where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

NOTE: Please answer the question in the OP before proceeding with any discussion: What was the Lord referring to by saying He would cut them in two and appoint them their portion with the hypocrites, where there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth?

Blessings in Christ to all who respond.

No.

They (the religious) were weeping and gnashing teeth when man’s works at salvation went in the ground...buried. Flesh crucified. They were weeping and gnashing teeth at: Acts 7:48-54
Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, [49] Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? [50] Hath not my hand made all these things? [51] Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did , so do ye. [52] Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: [53] Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. [54] When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

Cast out. Works of the flesh. No longer by man’s good attempts but fruit of the Spirit of God. Luke 6:20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye(You) poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.

Paul had to submit to the gospel of grace. The fear of being cast out was ...to be found flesh ...found to be working...rather than residing under the grace of God and The work of God(Spirit). Thankfully...knowing the will of man and the flesh to groan to be lifted up higher than God...God gave Paul a thorn ‘in the flesh’ a messenger of satan to remind him so Paul remained grounded firmly in “MY Grace is sufficient for you.” Is it?
 
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Hidden In Him

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Cut-off: This is a common reference to God's people being cut off from His presence. If you do a study on this you will find many references to this. Paul feared being a cast-away (another way of saying cut off). Jesus warned of being spewed from His mouth. Half of the virgins in the parable of the same name (the 10 virgins) ....were sent away (rejected).

You were referring to the words "cut him in two" in verse 51, Episkopos? The Greek there is διχοτομήσει, which means literally "cut into two," and was used of the ancient torture of dismemberment. But supposedly it also carried the sense of "cut to pieces," referring by this definition to scourging/flogging. This later sense isn't all that well attested in the Greek, but it does seem to be supported by Matthew 24:51, since the Lord thereafter appoints him his portion with the hypocrites where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, which suggests he is still alive afterwards.
 

Hidden In Him

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But even the Foolish Virgins were told to ‘Go and buy oil’ AND THEY DID. So they still had a relationship with the Holy Spirit!

This did not allow them into the wedding, but they had fresh oil and were now awake.

Hmmm... I'd like to comment on this one, Hisman, but we'd be off dealing with an entirely new parable. Maybe we can discuss this one another time.
Maybe this is the time of the thousand years, that they were left out of?

I do not see this as Forever!

The Millennium? Well, you'd have to account for the language used, i.e. of them being flogged and then cast among the hypocrites where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, which for me is too strong a language to be using for those who simply didn't reign with Christ during the thousand years.

But thanks for the response, brother.
 

Hidden In Him

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so see your premise is flawed from the first sentence ok,

Byrd, my first sentence was "Greetings all, and blessings in Christ!" LoL.
My second sentence was, "This is a continuation thread from one I started recently on the Parable of the Unmerciful Servant."
My third was "In it, there was the suggestion that the servant of the Lord could be given over to "tormentors" if he refused to walk in forgiveness. Arguments were presented that these tormentors could not be demons since it would insinuate that a servant of God could be cast into Hell and thus lose his salvation," so I'm guessing here is where you have your problems. This isn't actually a premise. The entire OP is a question, and one I asked responders very specifically to answer before beginning any discussion on it.

Please answer the OP.
 

Hidden In Him

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They (the religious) were weeping and gnashing teeth when man’s works at salvation went in the ground...buried. Flesh crucified. They were weeping and gnashing teeth at: Acts 7:48-54
Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, [49] Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? [50] Hath not my hand made all these things? [51] Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did , so do ye. [52] Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: [53] Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. [54] When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

Ok. Now here they were actually gnashing their teeth because of the message Stephen preached, not because their works went to the ground. But I understand the basic argument you are making. My question to it would be this: You are making the "cutting to pieces," and "weeping and gnashing of teeth" into emotional and psychological torments rather than physical torments in the flesh. To be consistent, do you interpret the rewards of the just in this parable to be emotional and psychological as well, or actual physical rewards?

46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. 47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.
 

CoreIssue

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First of all, here it is the better translation.

Matthew 24:51 New International Version (NIV)
51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Remember, this was to Israel. The church did not yet exist.

Dismemberment was an ancient punishment for the worst of criminals.

Once dismembered, his spirit went to hell and his body may have been cremated.
 

1stCenturyLady

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John 17:
11 I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. 12 While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

John 6: (regarding "eat my flesh and drink my blood.")

66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. 67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?” 68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. 69 We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?” 71 Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.
 

VictoryinJesus

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Ok. Now here they were actually gnashing their teeth because of the message Stephen preached, not because their works went to the ground. But I understand the basic argument you are making. My question to it would be this: You are making the "cutting to pieces," and "weeping and gnashing of teeth" into emotional and psychological torments rather than physical torments in the flesh. To be consistent, do you interpret the rewards of the just in this parable to be emotional and psychological as well, or actual physical rewards?

46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. 47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.

A house divided falls. There’s fell, yeah? A new man created in Christ does not fall since it is not divided but ‘joined’ made new in One. one piece without seam. Consider again Paul’s not wanting to be ‘cast away’...isn’t it the bondwoman who is cast away. Do we want to be the bondwoman? Which if one returns to “I might lose” what God has finished...then where are they at? Is it of the freewoman?

Rewards...Children (Spiritually born) is the reward and are they not His reward?
 

Marymog

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Greetings all, and blessings in Christ!

This is a continuation thread from one I started recently on the Parable of the Unmerciful Servant. In it, there was the suggestion that the servant of the Lord could be given over to "tormentors" if he refused to walk in forgiveness. Arguments were presented that these tormentors could not be demons since it would insinuate that a servant of God could be cast into Hell and thus lose his salvation.

I have a follow up question: What was the Lord telling His disciples in this passage then? The reference here is even more suggestive of eternal torment, should they disobey Him and turn to using their spiritual authority to abuse His church:

45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. 47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 24:45-51)
_____________________________________

To any for whom this thread may cause concern, it is not intended to create doubts in anyone's minds about their salvation. I believe those who are His have nothing to fear, provided they can abide by a few simple and reasonable rules. But there are a few things I believe He will not tolerate under any circumstances, and one of them is mentioned here. When His spiritual leaders turn to abusing His people instead of feeding and nurturing them spiritually, I believe their reward will be eternal suffering, where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

NOTE: Please answer the question in the OP before proceeding with any discussion: What was the Lord referring to by saying He would cut them in two and appoint them their portion with the hypocrites, where there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth?

Blessings in Christ to all who respond.
When you say "disciples" do you mean the Apostles (the 12) or His disciples (Mary Magdalene, Stephen, Timothy, Lazarus etc.)?

Mary
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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If anyone understands biblical salvation they would know the answer to all such questions
 

bbyrd009

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Arguments were presented that these tormentors could not be demons since it would insinuate that a servant of God could be cast into Hell and thus lose his salvation.
Whoever said this is obv focused on Death More Abundantly, and has no idea what they are talking about, and my remarks on if you dig a pit for others to fall into, you end up in it yourself should be relayed to that faker, ty
 

marks

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NOTE: Please answer the question in the OP before proceeding with any discussion: What was the Lord referring to by saying He would cut them in two and appoint them their portion with the hypocrites, where there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth?

The condemnation of the unsaved.

His servants were the Israelites, to whom He had come seeking fruit. But instead the were enriching themselves and lording over the others.


To any for whom this thread may cause concern, it is not intended to create doubts in anyone's minds about their salvation. I believe those who are His have nothing to fear, provided they can abide by a few simple and reasonable rules.

This then is salvation by works, is it not?

Much love!
mark
 

marks

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Whoever said this is obv focused on Death More Abundantly, and has no idea what they are talking about, and my remarks on if you dig a pit for others to fall into, you end up in it yourself should be relayed to that faker, ty

Speaking of focus . . . it seems that many of your objections to peoples views are simply that they are "death more abundantly", whatever that means. But I don't see it in the Scripture, but I suppose you find that to be death also?

Much love!
Mark
 

Episkopos

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But even the Foolish Virgins were told to ‘Go and buy oil’ AND THEY DID. So they still had a relationship with the Holy Spirit!

This did not allow them into the wedding, but they had fresh oil and were now awake.
Manybe this is the time of the thousand years, that they were left out of?

I do not see this as Forever!


Good points. Not very many are cut out to be saints. But there are many saved nevertheless.
 
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bbyrd009

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Speaking of focus . . . it seems that many of your objections to peoples views are simply that they are "death more abundantly", whatever that means.
"having tomorrow as one's premise"
"going to heaven tomorrow, after I have literally died"

but as I say I dint even invent it, google coulda saved you
 
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